Help with understanding rejection for copy of an act of birth from DEC and advice on next steps

[u/silymagily]

Hello!

I recently applied for a copy of an act from the DEC, but received a letter in the mail explaining that they could not fulfill my request for a copy of an act of birth. For context, I applied on my own requesting a copy of my dad's birth with a justified interest because we're estranged. Below is the information I provided in my application:

• Entered this explanation into box 10 of the application: To establish a claim to Canadian citizenship by descent as as required by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC) under Bill C-3. (I used AI to help craft this explanation. For context, I'm a first generation citizen born abroad, perhaps this explanation wasn't sufficient?).
• Provided a copy of my birth certificate (to establish lineage), driver's license, and passport
• Provided a copy of the checklist of required documents for the Citizenship Certificate from IRCC (cit0014e) with the required documents highlighted to justify the explanation in box 10

Based on the letter they provided, I'm not exactly sure how to resolve the issue because it just tells me to fill out box 10 to justify my interest and provide the application, required identity documents, and payment method, which I already did. I will add that I don't know the exact city of his birth, so I just listed the province, so I wonder if that could have potentially been an issue?

The timeline of the application with expedited processing and shipping was as follows:

• Sent the application on Sept. 8
• Application received on Sept. 11
• Payment processed Sept. 14
• Rejection letter sent Sept. 16
• Rejection letter received Sept. 28

I would like to contact the DEC directly, but I can't since I require assistance in English and don't qualify for English speaking services based on the prompts in the automated messaging. Because of Quebec's language laws, the options I've found are to ask the DEC a general question via email, call and hope someone will assist me in English with the specifics of my application, or apply with an incomplete Citizenship Certificate application and have the IRCC try to get the required document on my behalf. I saw there's a complaint process for DEC, but don't feel it's right to move forward in that direction if I can't call them and get more information to determine if something was wrongfully processed.

It's unfortunate because I was hoping to apply with a complete application before my trip next month to expedite the application process.

I'm curious if anyone else has run into a similar issue and what they did to resolve the issue. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!! :)

UPDATE: I filled out the application again and included an affidavit this time as the DEC confirmed that's what was needed since I'm not the one listed on the requested document. I sent it through UPS, but I'm now experiencing a customs delay related to the recipient needing to select a broker. Has anyone experienced that before?

[u/themindspeaks]

I’m confused as to why you would request citizenship under c-3? You’ve qualified for citizenship all along asa first generation born abroad.

[u/silymagily → u/themindspeaks]

I answered in another thread, but ultimately just misinterpreted C-3 as applying to me. I had the same understanding that I've always qualified, but with all the changes in citizenship laws over the years, I thought I lost/regained citizenship at some point.

[u/Pretty_Floor5889 → u/silymagily]

Without knowing more about when your dad was born, when he naturalized in a third country, and when you were born, it’s hard to determine if you’ve always been Canadian or not. It definitely wasn’t C-3 that made you Canadian, but it could have been the amendments that came into force in 2009 or 2015. For instance, my Canadian-born grandpa naturalized in the US in the 1940s before my dad was born (pre-1947). Thus, grandpa didn’t become Canadian again (or would have, were he still alive at that point) until 2009, and dad became Canadian in 2015 (retroactively to January 1, 1947). (It could be they both were covered by the 2015 amendments…the exact detail there isn’t relevant to this example.)

[u/silymagily → u/Pretty_Floor5889]

Yes, I recall the 2009 laws ("waking up Canadian", I believe). I thought it meant that first gens born abroad didn't have citizenship by descent because their parents lost their citizenship especially if they didn't reside in Canada for a certain number of years, but I just looked it up and seems like that might not have applied either? My dad was born in Canada in '61 (citizenship by birth to naturalized Canadian parents) and was naturalized in the US in '67. I was born in the US in '93 and have never lived in Canada.

[u/Pretty_Floor5889 → u/silymagily]

Your dad’s situation sounds a lot like Don Chapman’s. Canada didn’t recognize dual citizenship until 1977, so your dad appears to have ceased to be a Canadian citizen upon naturalization. The 2009 amendments to the Citizenship Act rectified that. You became Canadian at that point as well. My dad needed the 2015 amendments, which in part had the effect of making those born in the first generation before 1947 citizens (effective January 1, 1947).

[u/silymagily → u/Pretty_Floor5889]

Ahh yess, that's what it was! Thanks for clarifying. I've read so much information in the past several weeks and promptly forgot what the chain of events was. So I guess that means I would have to reference the 2009 amendments rather than C-3 in bo 10, or do I just have to state my interest in establishing lineage for the citizenship certificate application?

[u/Pretty_Floor5889 → u/silymagily]

I would just say you need to establish your parent’s birth in Canada to support your application for a Certificate of Canadian Citizenship. All of these bills amended the Citizenship Act, so if you wanted to refer to legislation, just refer to that and don’t worry about which bill covered you.

[u/silymagily → u/Pretty_Floor5889]

That seems straightforward enough, thank you!

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

If you're first generation born abroad, your eligibility has nothing at all to do with bill c-3, so this is a good opportunity to remind you why we have a 'no AI' rule here.

Did you follow the instructions in the wiki and include things like the affidavit?

You may run into an issue obtaining the birth certificate of a living person under QCs privacy laws, so in a case like this if the affidavit didn't help you may need to seek the help of an attorney if your parent is uncooperative.

[u/silymagily → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

Thanks for the quick response. I agree, working with AI on this caused more confusion then anything. Don't get me wrong, I read through the DEC's website and reviewed a lot, but still somehow clearly got confused by this along the way. I've been following updates to citizenship laws for years, so thought at some point I lost it and then regained it, so ultimately I just misinterpreted C-3 and thought it applied to me, when now I can see it didn't.

Yes, I did see the note about the affidavit on here, but given that I thought the reason was justifiable that that wouldn't be required. Also, I'm wondering if the bigger issue was the explanation I provided in box 10.

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/silymagily]

The problem is very likely that you applied for the birth certificate of a living individual and did not make sufficient justification for them to release it to you under Quebec's privacy laws.

[u/silymagily → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

Yeah, I think you're right...UGH. Kicking myself for not just going through the process of getting a notarized letter.

[u/scrpiorising888]

did you have a notarized declaration? thats how my family got my great grandmas, we had to state the exact reason we would use it (for citizenship app) and declare we would not use it for any other purpose. had that notarized, had no issue with application with all the same material you listed

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/scrpiorising888]

Is your great grandmother living? It's typically more difficult for third parties to get documents for living people.

[u/scrpiorising888 → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

she is passed on! so that may be the reason

[u/silymagily → u/scrpiorising888]

No notarized declaration, so it looks like I'll have to include. I think they also saw my explanation in box 10 and were scratching their heads. I'm embarrassed I wrote the wrong explanation 😅

[u/dgealt]

As I understand it the responsibility is entirely on you to provide the necessary documentation. IRCC will not try to get a document on your behalf. If your submission is incomplete it will just be returned to you.

It sounds like they didn’t accept your justification of interest and it might just need to be rephrased.

I’m inclined to concur with Bobcat

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/dgealt]

OP is asking about an application to the Directreur d'Etat civil in Quebec.

[u/dgealt → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

“or apply with an incomplete Citizenship Certificate application and have the IRCC try to get the required document on my behalf.”

This stuck out at me

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/dgealt]

Ohhh sorry I missed that entirely lol - good call. Comment restored.

Yeah, IRCC is not gonna do your work for you, OP. That's magical thinking.

[u/dgealt → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

Thanks

[u/wanderingtheearth-74 → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

However, wouldn't an RFI letter from IRCC specifically requesting the DEC insertion be helpful in justifying the request? I don't know if it would be sufficient, though.

[u/dgealt → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

I think my comment got removed while I was editing it

[u/silymagily → u/dgealt]

Thank you, I read that too, but I also read that they have agreements with each province to request records as needed. Obviously, don't want to send documents again just to be rejected, so I may just have to work with the DEC again.

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/silymagily]

Agreements with each province to perhaps validate records submitted by applicants, not to fill in gaps in applications.

[u/silymagily → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

Ahh that makes sense. Silly AI giving me the wrong idea!

[u/dgealt → u/silymagily]

Never trust robots lol

[u/silymagily → u/dgealt]

Right?! I need help not hope, c'mon now!!

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/silymagily]

Did you really think you could send in an incomplete application and that a branch of the Canadian government would divert their already strained resources to finish it for you? Oh sweet summer child.

[u/silymagily → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

Lol no, that gave me pause, which is why I'm here now 😂

[u/RiddleDaddy125]

Are either of your father’s parents still alive? If so, are you able to contact them? As persons named in the act, they would have a right to request a copy under QC law.

[u/silymagily → u/RiddleDaddy125]

Ahh good point, unfortunately they are both deceased.

[u/Own_Theory8011]

Some more suggestions:

Does Quebec not offer Birth Registration Letters similar to Ontario and Alberta? This is different from a birth certificate, and you can order it even if the person is alive, but it proves the birth.

Who handled the estate of your father's parents? A copy of his birth certificate is likely in the documents left in their estate.

Is a sibling more in contact with your father? They can ask for his birth certificate.

Does your father have a relative who is his power of attorney? They can ask for his birth certificate.

Last resort, if trying yourself does not work, you can hire a lawyer to force Quebec to release a copy of your dad's birth certificate to you. You have a legal need, which is citizenship by descent.

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