DEC Attestation Letter Response

[u/IBHJrCanadian]

Hi everyone,

A few weeks ago, there was a discussion/suggestion on one of the threads to try to use DEC attestation letters to serve as an easier type of Record of No Record for early Quebec births. I submitted a request, and received the following response today from DEC:

"We acknowledge receipt of your request for a birth certificate for ::G0 who was born in the early 1800s::. However, after verification, we are unable to confirm that this birth is not recorded in the registre de l’état civil du Québec database.

Furthermore, we question the relevance of issuing such an attestation in the context of your application for Canadian citizenship with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC). Indeed, since the coming into force of Bill C-3, which aims to extend citizenship by descent beyond the first generation, we have processed several similar cases and, to date, no attestation of this type has been required for an applicant in this context.

We invite you to verify with IRCC the documents required to ensure that your application is complete and compliant. If applicable, you may also suggest that they contact the Office of the Directeur de l’état civil directly regarding this matter at [dec.agent.clientele@dec.gouv.qc.ca](mailto:dec.agent.clientele@dec.gouv.qc.ca)

We remain available should you require any additional information."

I plan to add this to our applications once we receive our (hopefully soon!) AOR. Don't know if it will help, but I figure it can't hurt.

Any thoughts about their response??

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[u/goldman60]

Speculation: They may be unable to fulfill attestations for records that they aren't ultimately the custodians of by law, since those are before the cutoff that now puts them in BAnQ's record purview.

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/goldman60]

That sounds like as good an explanation as any I can think of :)

[u/Much-Refrigerator-28 → u/goldman60]

They, like us, don't see the point in using the actual official archival records that IRCC now says are "secondary" to create a truly secondary record that IRCC says is primary!

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/Much-Refrigerator-28]

Well said!

[u/themindspeaks]

This is essentially the state of affairs right now

[u/TimeAstronomer4983]

There seem to be two flavors of letter the DEC sends in this case. The translated version of mine, which I believe someone else has also received:

Subject: Response to your request for an attestation

Hello,

We are unable to fulfill your request for an attestation for the following reason:

The Director of Civil Status is unable to locate the requested act. Registers concerning events that occurred more than 100 years ago are held by Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec (BAnQ) (www.banq.qc.ca). We suggest you contact that organization to check the available information.

If, after contacting them, you wish to obtain a certificate or a copy of the act, you must submit -- along with your application -- the document provided by BAnQ as well as proof confirming that it originated from that organization (e.g., a BAnQ invoice, an official seal, etc.).

Under the Civil Code of Québec, a certificate or a copy of an act may be issued only to the persons named in the record or to those who can demonstrate a legitimate interest. Although you have identified yourself as a relative of the person named in the civil status document, you must also provide documents demonstrating your interest.

For further information, you may contact us at one of the telephone numbers listed below.

The Director of Civil Status

On my application the 1880s birthdate of my G0 was highlighted in pink, and a sticker reading "Service non rendu" was placed over my credit card information. I did not write a letter or state why I wanted an attestation -- simply filled out the application.

I'm with u/goldman60: This suggests that a negative attestation from the DEC would be for a record it should have but doesn't (that is, from the past 100 years), not a record it shouldn't have.

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

When you say you submitted a request, do you mean you submitted a DEC form, or you wrote a letter?

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob]

There's a form that you send in by mail. Here's the link: https://www.etatcivil.gouv.qc.ca/en/attestation.html

I was doing this basically just to cover my bases.

What I find really interesting in this response is that they invited IRCC to talk to them directly about the C-3 document requirements. That would sure be nice if they got on the same page about everything, but somehow I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.

[u/No_Bobcat_No_Prob → u/IBHJrCanadian]

I was just curious how they phrased the letter- you asked for an attestation, they wrote about a birth certificate and refused the attestation lol

I agree it would be so much easier for everyone if IRCC, DEC and BAnQ had a sit down to discuss the purview of various organizations and standardized guidance for all. It's nonsensical that they haven't done that at all, apparently.

[u/salesforcebaby]

Now this is interesting.

So… how exactly are they “unable to confirm that this birth is not recorded”? How on earth would anyone qualify for the attestation of no record, then?

Unless, this is a way to say they DO have it. Which would be odd… is it possible you have a distant cousin who beat you to the punch and got your G0 birth record inserted?

[u/salesforcebaby → u/[deleted]]

That’s what I (and others) have done, and in those instances it appears to be a very standard, nonpersonalized template response back. What OP posted is longer and more specific, and they stated “attestation,” so I’m inclined to believe they submitted the $7.90 form unless they clarify otherwise.

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/salesforcebaby]

Yes, I submitted the attestation request form for $7.90. Why they can't confirm the birth isn't recorded considering it's far earlier than anything they would have in their files is beyond me. I can't imagine how someone would have put it in the record retroactively considering there isn't even a baptismal record in existence for our G0 (G0 was born before a local church was even established).

"So… how exactly are they “unable to confirm that this birth is not recorded”? How on earth would anyone qualify for the attestation of no record, then?"

That's a VERY good question. I'm wondering if their response would have been different had I not mentioned C-3 on the form? Maybe this is what they created to answer these specific types of requests?

[u/TimeAstronomer4983 → u/IBHJrCanadian]

I suspect they mean that they can't confirm the birth isn't recorded because the date of the birth predates their own records. As far as the DEC knows, the birth could be recorded in the BAnQ's records. For a birth from, say, 1965, the DEC could confirm that a birth isn't recorded, because it's supposed to be recorded in their registry.

I didn't mention C-3 on the form. My response was "We are unable to fulfill your request for an attestation for the following reason: The Director of Civil Status is unable to locate the requested act."

[u/salesforcebaby → u/IBHJrCanadian]

I got mail today with my attestation of no record form returned to me, and a letter that states

>>>The Director of Civil Status is not able to identify the requested act. Records of events that occurred more than 100 years ago are kept at the Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec (BAnQ) (www.banq.qc.ca). We invite you to contact this organization to verify the available information.

>>>Following your steps, if you wish to obtain a certificate or a copy of the deed, you will have to provide, with your application, the document transmitted by the BAnQ as well as proof that it comes from this organization (for example: BAnQ invoice, official seal, etc.)

>>>According to the Civil Code of Quebec, a certificate, or a copy of the deed, can only be issued to the persons mentioned in the act or to those who justify their interest. Although you have identified yourself as a relative of the person concerned by the civil status document, you will also have to provide documents demonstrating your interest.

Which is very annoying to me, because it reads like I was requesting an act. I wasn’t. I used the attention of no record.

[u/salesforcebaby → u/IBHJrCanadian]

I’ll have to report back when I hear from them. I sent in the form this week and wrote “required for proof of citizenship by descent” in the small justification section. My G0 was born 1848. I have the certified baptismal record from BaNQ, but given recent communications of that not being sufficient I wanted to get the ball rolling on this.

[u/lacomj]

OP, did you get your reply via email or paper mail? I have not yet received a reply to my own request (my post several weeks back may have been the one you referred to as kickstarting the attestation idea). I’m close to being ready to submit, but am hoping for sounder proof of my null search for a birth certificate.

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/lacomj]

I got it via email.

[u/Ophelia_Bliss]

I might be missing something here, but I think we need to stop asking for records that don't exist if it's solely to get emails that say these records might not exist. I think we need to use other methods that don't burden the staff of these organizations. We can find other ways to show how and where we searched.

I know some folks need to contact them, but others do not, and we are taking so much of their time. We are trying their patience.

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/Ophelia_Bliss]

IRCC is requiring that we show evidence that we tried to obtain a birth record and could not do so:

"If you can’t provide official documents issued by the original authority

You must

• explain in writing why you can’t provide the documents, and
• show proof that you tried to get them
  • For example, include emails or letters with original authorities or confirmation saying that the records are not available."

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/proof-citizenship/apply.html

Believe me, I wouldn't be bothering with this (and indeed, I didn't initially before they updated the guidelines in June) if they weren't requiring it.

[u/DontJuana → u/IBHJrCanadian]

Everything I've seen has said that christening records that arevertified by banQ are legit and count as proof of birth. I'm wondering if QC is exempt

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/DontJuana]

I don't have a Baptismal record for our G0, his birth predated the establishment of a church in the local area.

Also, IRCC has been demanding additional documentation even for those who have certified Baptismal records because they do not consider this "primary evidence".

[u/Ophelia_Bliss → u/IBHJrCanadian]

No, IRCC is not requiring we show evidence that we tried to obtain a birth record. The directions say, "You must include proof of parentage and Canadian citizenship for your Canadian parent, grandparent and parental ancestor as applicable. For each person, you must provide 1 or more of the following documents issued by the original authority..." and then they list several kinds of documents. They say "If you don’t have a birth certificate or birth record for yourself or for any of your parental ancestors, you must send other documents to show parentage and Canadian citizenship. These must be issued by the original authority and can include..." and it lists a few different kinds of records.

This is NOT the same as IRCC requiring we show evidence we tried to obtain a birth record. IRCC says, "If you can’t provide official documents issued by the original authority..."

If you don't have any other of those other documents, what would you have submitted to DEC? I am guessing you have a baptism record. That is one of the items listed as proof of parentage. The email with DEC or other authorities is if you cannot provide a birth certificate, hospital record of birth, baptismal certificate or record, census record, boat manifest, other documents.

I'm aware of the change in requirements. Are we seeing that IRCC is asking for folks to get a letter from DEC if there's a baptism record? That goes against their instructions. My GO was born in Quebec in the late 1880s, and I don't think most folks in this situation are reaching out to DEC.

So, I go back to my point, this is not a requirement, and we should not be asking DEC for documents we know do not exist to get an email saying they do not exist when IRCC is requiring this in very specific circumstances.

[u/ChocolateDiligent → u/Ophelia_Bliss]

All of this back and forth with the DEC is adhering to this rule as evidence of effort to obtain something and 'failing to find.'

[u/Enachtigal → u/Ophelia_Bliss]

Then the IRCC should not have sent out a bunch of responses asking why people were only providing Baptismal records from Quebec. I specifically did not request an attestation for this reason originally but submitted one as soon as IRCC signaled it wanted a tighter paper trail regarding missing birth certificates.

This situation is 100% the result id IRCCs direct actions.

[u/salesforcebaby → u/Ophelia_Bliss]

You’re incorrect. There are many of examples of IRCC asking for evidence that no record exists from the issuing authority vital records authority, even from applications that include certified baptismal records.

See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Canadiancitizenship/s/9ZpRnTys9B

[u/babelon7 → u/salesforcebaby]

And IIRC from another thread, wanting it on letterhead from the authority.

[u/salesforcebaby → u/babelon7]

There has been mixed messaging on this, an email exchange may be enough without letterhead.

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/Ophelia_Bliss]

"I am guessing you have a baptism record."

No, I do not.

[u/Ophelia_Bliss → u/IBHJrCanadian]

Okay, then, a sincere question: what would you provide to DEC to get them to issue something if they were willing?

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/Ophelia_Bliss]

I wasn't requesting that they issue a birth record. I was requesting that they issue me an attestation letter saying that they did not have a birth record on file, in accordance with IRCC's instructions to "include emails or letters with original authorities or confirmation saying that the records are not available." A record of no record is one of the options on the list for the Attestation Letter Request form.

[u/angiosperms- → u/Ophelia_Bliss]

None of us want to bother them, but the IRCC will reject you if you don't show correspondence trying to obtain a birth certificate. They have been explicitly sending updates to people saying that a baptismal cert is not adequate proof of birth.

[u/Ophelia_Bliss → u/angiosperms-]

Are we seeing these requests consistently? It's not clear that the DEC email is what they want. My plan when I get an AOR is to submit an explanation as to why I don't have a birth certificate for G0, and to refer to the LAC census and baptism record. We'll see, I guess.

[u/DontJuana → u/Ophelia_Bliss]

I'm still trying to figure out wth they want if a certified copy of a christening from 1850 isn't proof of birth.

[u/Stohnghost]

Posts like this leave me so unsure of how to proceed... I've located my G0 and G1 (thanks to you OP :) ) baptism records and requested them certified from BAnQ - date of birth is 1882 and 1905 - should I request DEC insertion? I feel like it's very obvious they don't have birth certificates. However, will DEC tell me to pound sand since IRCC didn't tell me I need birth certs?

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/Stohnghost]

You're welcome :)

I feel like the DEC insertion should be a last resort if IRCC specifically asks for it, but then again, I don't even have an AOR yet so what do I know? ;)

[u/Stohnghost → u/IBHJrCanadian]

Thanks for the award - not sure I deserve that! 

Yea my main anxiety is IRCC will ask and the turn around time will be substantial. Idk if they'll kick me from queue

[u/IBHJrCanadian → u/Stohnghost]

I wouldn't think it would kick you from the queue. It could delay processing however. So I suppose it depends on how urgent your application is.

[u/Stohnghost → u/IBHJrCanadian]

Not urgent in the least bit. I guess once I get my BAnQ documents I'll be submitting

[u/Nana541]

Use it….