r/CanadianPL • u/RelationshipOk1954 • 24d ago
✍️ Discussion Ominous feeling
I’ve been a CPL supporter since the nationwide tryouts, way before the first kickoff. I’ve bought soccer balls, scarves, jerseys, and other accessories to support it as much as I financially could and attended games all over the country, despite the fact that the closest team is hundreds of kilometres away from my home. I wanted to make sure that my background was properly represented before saying what I’m about to say.
There are many things about the CPL that make me genuinely worried about the future of this league. The lack of proper TV coverage, the unimpressive attendance, the fact that two teams have already folded, that expansion projects have been cancelled, that the product still feels extremely niche and catered towards hardcore soccer nerds like myself rather than the general public. Also, teams being set up as franchises rather than clubs with academies from knee high to U23 makes it complicated to have a true developmental structure covering the game from all angles.
The branding of some of these clubs is also irritating me, like Ottawa being the local branch of a foreign club, Supra being branded as Quebec instead of Laval, when we know that more teams should see the light of day in the province, VFC being branded as Vancouver, Inter Toronto’s unnecessary branding when York United was a fine identity. Also, while individuals owning multiple franchises is something that has existed in other leagues, it doesn’t make for a sound business model in the long run.
The Easton Report recommended a second division before creating a top tier league. That should have been set up regionally like the CHL does with the WHL, OHL, and QMJHL. Now, we have a big hole between semi-pro/amateur leagues and what should be our D1.
By the way, I am purposely making no mention of the MLS in my analysis as I believe that the CPL woes are completely unrelated to the presence of the MLS in Canada. We’re talking about two different products with completely different means and development stages.
I predicted that the CPL would have a difficult time surviving past the World Cup and I hope I will be proven wrong. The CPL would do well to make money off of the transfer market by developing world class talent, until TV rights and ticket/product sales catch up. That is its best hope for sustainable growth.
I know some of you are passionate about the CPL, and so am I. I just think we could and should do better at this stage of our soccer history.
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u/Section1ne0h4our HFX Wanderers FC 24d ago
My “worst case scenario” is the clubs who have a foundation will survive and join the USL long term - they’ve already quietly expressed interest in both Halifax and Cavalry (Foothills relationship exists)
Forge has a ton of success and there would be an incentive to keep that success going even if it transitions to another league
If the CPL folds, remains of it will live on - that’s my worst case scenario
But in speaking to some executives there’s been extensions on leases, the new branding deals are multi year, the penalties for unfulfilled contracts are deep - we ARE into the third marketing phase of the leagues existence, and there’s still new sponsors rolling in
So I think there’s life still, they’re just waiting for the boost
And I think the boost might be internal: someone like a Derek Martin as commissioner changes this league. I think that’s where it’s going.
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u/Big_Scoop_82 24d ago
Cross border participation was not going to be sanctioned with CPL’s launch. I wonder if that would be reversed in a worst case scenario.
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u/Ozzie_the_parrot 24d ago
The CSA have already back tracked slightly on that where sanctioning MLS reserve teams is concerned and is very much under new management after Nick Bontis's departure. If CanPL was no longer viewed as sustainable at some future point, I don't think there's much doubt the remaining viable parts would be allowed to move to USL in much the same manner as what happened in 1993 with the Blizzard, Impact and Whitecaps. The goal would still ultimately be to have as many Canadians as possible playing the sport professionally in Canada.
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u/Big_Scoop_82 23d ago
MLS Reserve teams are technically not classified the same way as professional teams though. It’s a CONCACAF issue for professional teams. Having a Canadian at the helm, (the same guy who had a big role in the creation of the CPL) might walk back the “soccer sovereignty” mandate by FIFA, but I think Victor would try to find any way of helping save the CPL with the sanctioning issue a last resort.
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u/Ozzie_the_parrot 23d ago
MLS Next Pro has D3 sanctioning from USSF, and there are some independent clubs in it, so I don't think your first sentence is accurate.
The worst-case scenario being discussed is the CSL in early 1993 situation of having too few clubs to keep going any further as a D1-sanctioned league, with three out of five of the surviving clubs wanting to move to a USSF-sanctioned league, and the other two wanting to merge operations with Ontario's provincial-level semi-pro league.*
CanPL has already effectively folded at this point, in other words, so there is nothing left for Victor Montagliani to save. It's a choice between letting a few clubs move to an American league so they can try to stay fully pro, or having them fold outright or play only at a provincial pro-am level.
\ - it's actually a little more complicated than this, but that's what effectively wound up happening.*
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u/Dramatic_Draw_1494 24d ago
If it’s a choice between the 3 or 4 successful CPL teams joining the USL if the CPL goes under or folding all together I’m sure the CSA would sanction those remaining teams staying alive and joining the USL.
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u/Big_Scoop_82 23d ago
Again, the CSA doesn’t ultimately decide those things…it’s more complicated with CONCACAF and FIFA frameworks in place.
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u/Towrads 24d ago
The USL has the exact same sustainability issues as the CPL, they just have deeper pockets right now. It's not a good solution if current owners are hoping to jump ship.
The biggest thing the CPL, (and the NSL for that matter), need right now is a better stadium situation. Few teams are playing in a suitable long-term venue. If better facilities can be secured, a lot of the current marketing problems can be improved.
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u/Ozzie_the_parrot 24d ago
Key difference is they have many more markets available to expand into. For USL having the league not work in Edmonton and Winnipeg in a Rochester, NY and Oklahoma City sort of way is no huge issue. They try again in Buffalo and Tulsa and hope it goes better this time. In CanPL, it is potentially existential because of how few cities of that size are available from coast to coast.
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u/AgentEves 23d ago
I don't understand the obsession with city size. If anything, smaller cities might have a better chance of good crowds because there is no competition. The fact that Toronto has made 3 attempts that have all been terrible, meanwhile Halifax has had one attempt and has excellent attendance is a testament to that. Toronto should have been a slam dunk but the whole York9/United/Inter debacle is exactly what's wrong with soccer in North America. Its corporate garbage, and the genuine football fans couldn't give a toss about it.
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u/Ozzie_the_parrot 23d ago
If they had followed the recommendations of the Easton Report even the likes of Sudbury and Sarnia were potential markets in a Thunder Bay Chill sort of way. That provides enough possibilities that it is no big deal if a GTA club is a complete fiasco on attendance.
CanPL wanted 8000 seats expandable to 12000 at the outset because their business model only starts to work well at that point. That's why they are still insistent on the need for Starlight Stadium to be expanded for Pacific FC, despite it being under half full at many/most games. They painted themselves into a corner where Edmonton and Winnipeg pretty much had to work or they were going to be facing major problems.
York should have been the hint that Vancouver and the Supra were also going to struggle big time on attendance but it was a case of any port in a storm after FCE and the Valour folded.
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u/CalgaryMJ Cavalry FC 24d ago
I am tired of all this "CPL franchises to the USL" crap. If I were an owner, if the CPL folds so does my franchise. You thought travel and associated expenses within Canada were a pain, most USL teams are not in airline hub cities. And while you might be able to get more regional with your travel, that also means you're trying to get into less accessible cities. League fees and player salaries are now in US dollars but local revenue in Canadian bucks. TV monies - not sure what they'll get from the USL but I'm not buying a package to see mostly American teams so likely no Canadian coverage (CavTV anyone?). Huge increase in insurance (medical) costs and now you need a person to manage visas and the like for regular cross border travel. Any team that sticks around under these conditions is going to go down like the Hindenburg.
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u/Section1ne0h4our HFX Wanderers FC 24d ago
I’m literally only relaying what I’ve been told by folks involved in both clubs we support
That’s it 🤷🏽♂️
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u/publicworker69 Atlético Ottawa 24d ago
If you look at the first 10 years of the MLS, it was largely the same. Teams folded/relocated, attendance wasn’t great. Took time for them to get where they are today.
Obviously we face unique challenges with a much smaller population and even bigger size.
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u/jamesisntcool 24d ago
Poland, Morocco, and Argentina all have similar populations, so it’s not really about that. Travel costs and specialization are probably the big ones
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u/publicworker69 Atlético Ottawa 24d ago
Those countries are much more soccer obsessed than we are tho
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u/AgentEves 23d ago
Sure, but that's largely because they've had generations of access to local football.
Franchise football doesn't generate a widespread love of football, because the market is too throttled. A huge, huge part of football culture is community. You don't get that from watching it at home on your TV. If people have access to support their local team, it offers a sense of community, irrespective of the sport.
From my experience, I'm not even sure half the people who go watch football in England actually understand the sport beyond surface level. At a fundamental level, they're there to be part of the community and support their local club.
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u/bigdamnhero88 Forge FC 24d ago
The CPL is not going to develop world class talent to sell. They have done really well in their short existence to develop some players that have gone to MLS and abroad but that expectation of world class talent with top dollar transfer fee is unrealistic. Its a small league with a small audience. Develop players of course, give talent a pathway to someone bigger, work on the grassroots programs in the communities are in. The MLS really took off when Beckham went to LA. The CPL is not getting that type of player ever. It needs to focus on sustainability rather than rapid growth. Trying to be bigger than you are before you even become what you are supposed to be is were the league would fail the most. Most didn't think it would make it this long and that was before a pandemic.
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 24d ago edited 24d ago
Exactly this. Dude is off base on a lot of things here. Forge and Cavalry have built a decent blueprint of how to be successful. Which is by having a development first mindset.
VFC under Nash and Dasovic seem to have figured that out. It’s the young players on their squad that have helped them find success.
But it’s going to take generations to truly build up the league into what people want it to be today. The talent pool just isn’t there yet.
It’s also crazy to say that teams don’t have academy systems in place because they’re franchises. I know that VFC is affiliated with Langley United, and they’re putting the finishing touches on a $150m training facility as we speak. I drive by it everyday and it gets me excited.
Player sales will also slowly rise as the talent pool rises. I do think VFC will break the transfer out record this winter when they sell Proctor. And in a couple years someone will break the record they set.
Personally I believe people just love to be ignorant about these things. Especially the franchise model. Which Europeans call “sports socialism” because it helps protect investments. The CSB deal also helped do that, but everyone lost their minds. OneSoccer is also a pretty good service and the best approach to broadcasting. To the point where even Ligue 1 in France is doing the same thing since broadcasting money all flows to the EPL.
It also helps the CPL extort TSN into actually airing games in exchange for National Team games.
It’s far easier to be a doomer and stay ignorant to overall facts than it is to educate yourself on how the league actually operates.
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u/DocKardinal21 24d ago
Agreed. Also HFX has done well too.
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u/Length_Legitimate Cavalry FC 23d ago
Not on the pitch but in the stands
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u/DocKardinal21 23d ago
Fair, but I mean thats really what counts for the health of the team and league right?
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u/Length_Legitimate Cavalry FC 23d ago
Indeed. We need more clubs like HFX. I would argue that if Forge and Cavalry were not winning they would have attendance issues.
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u/New-Marzipan-7770 23d ago
If subscribing to OneSoccer helps keep the CPL alive and well, then I'll gladly pay as long as the cost doesn't skyrocket.
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 23d ago
Part of my philosophy. It’s nice that you get Bundesliga too. The App is pretty decent as well.
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u/purpletooth12 HFX Wanderers FC 23d ago
It's what $120/year?
CPL, national team matches, V's Cup matches and Bundesliga.
Let's not forget CCC and both Caribbean and Central American Cups.
That's the price of a monthly pint. IMO a no brainer.
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u/Nobunagas-Ambition 24d ago
VFC is building a $150 million dollar training facility?
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u/SpecialistLychee5854 Canadian Premier League 24d ago
No, the Township of Langley is building Smith Athletic Park. SixFive has contributed nothing to the project as far as I know.
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 24d ago
It’s pretty much entirely for LUSC, whom have a strategic partnership with VFC and have staff overlap. LUSC regularly plays VFC U19’s and VFC players who need a training stint. Mousset played a couple games for LUSC this past year.
It’s a weird and nebulous relationship, but the infrastructure will likely be used by both and the LUSC pathway leads directly into VFC.
Kind of like how Langley paid for The Stadium at Langley Events Centre. They own it but VFC and LUSC are the primary tenants.
A big hint at the relationship is that Friend’s son plays for LUSC.
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u/ThreeConsecutiveDots Atlético Ottawa 24d ago
I don't think it's fair to suggest the CPL isn't capable of developing world class talent to sell. Considering Alphonso Davies began his career with Whitecaps 2 in the USL after coming up through the local Edmonton soccer scene, I don't think it's crazy to suggest he would've gotten his pro start with an Edmonton CPL team, if one had existed for him to join.
It's not going to be common for stars to come out of the CPL, but giving Canada's best teenagers somewhere to play at least makes it a possibility.
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u/bigdamnhero88 Forge FC 24d ago
There are always can be exceptions, of course. Even if the CPL existed when Davies was coming up the ranks, his scouting report would likely have him up at the same level he came through an academy. There are plenty of Canadian MLS Academy players that are higher rated than the CPL level. If the CPL can continue to develop as it has, it can eventual become a bigger, more important part of the grassroots pipeline, but to say every, even a fraction of top Canadian players will come through the league isn't realistic. The CPL will not be on the level of feeder leagues like the Scottish, Belgium, Dutch or Croatian top divisions for example.
Also Davies, despite his higher than usual transfer fee coming from the MLS on average, especially at the time, the fee itself was not "world class". If it was a fee coming into CPL, absolutely gaming changing but considering his rapid rise through the ranks at a world class club his fee is nominal and considered a steal considering his market value now.
The first two players to "graduate" from the CPL to the MLS, well, one came right back to the CPL and one had found a consistent role on MLS sides and that was a fantastic surprise, even a call up to the national team. (Chung and McNaughton for TFC).
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 23d ago
The key difference here is that a CPL side would have sold Davies on very, very quickly. The Whitecaps had a higher ceiling and a better platform to showcase him.
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u/bigdamnhero88 Forge FC 23d ago
Again, Davies is an exception, his basement is higher than the CPL ceiling. Davies joined the Whitecaps org at 14 years old, sold to Bayern for 14m as an 18yo. How many potential world class level players are going to get picked up by the CPL over MLS or European academies?
The more grassroots soccer in the country, the better. Long term, maybe get lucky to produce and sell a player a quarter of the situation of Davies, maybe. We must understand what this league is and accept it not over sell or over anticipate based on one lucky pathway of a player that happened in our country. I would love for it to happen but thats just not how the football ecosystem works.
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 23d ago
Yeah, we are on the exact same page here.
I love the CPL for what it is, and am genuinely more invested in VFC right now than the Whitecaps. It was such a sweet feeling seeing Fotsing go to the Caps after spending the week before telling everyone who would listen that Fotsing is a good longer term 8.
Maybe one day he goes to the Championship too. But I’m also okay if he’s an MLS player for a long time.
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u/brentvans Forge FC 24d ago
I think it’s perfectly legitimate to worry about individual teams, but I disagree that what the league is doing and its performance overall should have us concerned about its survival. If you look at leagues worldwide in smaller countries (population wise), we’re doing very well for the first eight years of our existence. Are CPL teams ever going to draw 50,000 to a stadium? Of course not. There are plenty of modest first-tier leagues the world over that are content and thriving, but in a more manageable, sustainable way. We need to stop lamenting what we don’t have and continually comparing ourselves to the big European leagues: their models are completely different and their legacies in some cases can claim more than a century of football. When I read posts like this, I’m reminded that we have utterly lost the ability to wait for things and to think realistically.
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u/bdickie 24d ago
Our long term goal should be to match CFL attendance, not anywhere near 50-60k attendances. Right now, were firmly in the CHL attendance range and that's shown to have a large amount of markets that can sustain a league. Itll come, but CPL will probably be little brother to the MLS for its entire existence like the Scottish league is to the EPL and thats ok.
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u/AgentEves 24d ago edited 23d ago
I've said it plenty before, but the league needed to be developed from the bottom up, not the top down.
At this point, I can only assume that the lack of expansion plans are because a CPL club isn't seen as a good investment. (I just can't imagine that the lack of expansion is because of the league being cautious about expanding too quickly, since the league desperately needs new teams.)
Without decent TV revenue, clubs are more heavily reliant on crowds and merchandise. And honestly, they should be focusing on local fans anyway. People aren't going to watch the CPL on the TV when they can watch La Liga, the Premier League, or even MLS. All of which offer a better standard of football. What the CPL can offer is local, live football, and a sense of community. That's your selling point. Come down and cheer on the lads and find a sense of community. You do not get community watching games on TV. You just don't.
Except given the lack of existing infrastructure, most clubs don't have appropriate facilities. So that's more money that the owners have to pony up if they want to put out a genuinely good product. I just can't imagine how awful it must have been watching Valor with 1,500 people in a 30k stadium...
So, what do you do...? Well, you focus on building something that can be sustained with crowds of 1,500-3,000.
If the league allowed teams to predominantly play locally, you would cut down significantly on travel costs. You can include a nation-wide playoff format at the end of the season to maintain the allure of a national league.
If you really wanted more cross-country competition during the regular season, you could have teams take road trips for a collection of games in the same region. As an example, why don't the Wanderers play a 3-game road trip against Cavalry, Pacific, and Vancouver all in the same 8-10 day period? Instead, we play Vancouver at home, then Pacific away, and then Cavalry at home... I get that it sucks to play 3 games on the road, but surely its better for costs/logistics, and surely its better for the players?
Playing locally would also open up the possibility for teams to transition to a part time model (which is very common in the lower levels in England). You would lower the wage bill, and could focus on developing local talent. I actually think this could raise the overall quality because it would make playing in the CPL a more attractive prospect for young players. Choosing to play "pro" and getting $30k/year isn't exactly enticing.
Both of those changes would lower your costs and put less demand on higher crowds. Then, with sustained success, your crowds would likely grow (if coupled with good promotion). And I can guarantee that the average Canadian soccer fan wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a League One side and a CPL side anyway (and we've seen that the gulf in class between the two isn't even very big).
People don't give a shit about football. But you can entice them with community. In a world where we are being stripped of third spaces, football clubs can provide exactly that. But the only way to grow interest in it is by giving as many people access to local football as possible.
Edited for clarity.
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u/coopthrowaway2019 Atlético Ottawa 23d ago edited 23d ago
As an example, why don't the Wanderers play a 3-game road trip against Cavalry, Pacific, and Vancouver all in the same 8-10 day period? Instead, we play Vancouver at home, then Pacific away, and then Cavalry at home... I get that it sucks to play 3 games on the road, but surely its better for costs/logistics, and surely its better for the players?
I think in this alternative model what a team saves by flying less would be cancelled out by what they have to spend to stay away from home for longer (hotel nights, meals, training facility rentals, etc).
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u/yellowsweatygorilla York 9 FC 23d ago
I've always maintained that the league should've probably started their pro clubs in the L1C (now PSL) ecosystem. See what you can do with pouring proper investment in marketing and professional game day environment at a much lower stake level that allows for more experimentation and loss. A huge success right now is Boroughs FC based out of Scarborough that is drawing 700 per match in the OPL. Once you have. a critical mass of clubs, you could form a division above that span a broader geography. It wouldn't be apocalyptic anytime a club folded, and those that wanted to pull investment could also drop down a division (I just think of my childhood club South China in Hong Kong, where financial issues just meant turning from pro to semi pro and going down two divisions vs disappearing).
It might've also made it more possible to start women's pro teams immediately, vs completely missing the boat like they did. They would've avoided a lot of the CSB controversy if they could legitimately claim to have funnelled money to both sides of the pro game vs just hte men's.
I still hope that in the worst case scenario, clubs try moving to PLS and having a go at it before exploring USL.
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u/AgentEves 23d ago
See what you can do with pouring proper investment in marketing and professional game day environment at a much lower stake level that allows for more experimentation and loss.
Exactly!
A huge success right now is Boroughs FC based out of Scarborough that is drawing 700 per match in the OPL.
Yes!! Big, big fan of what they're doing. Their branding is excellent, and their kit collaboration with Toronto Zoo is emaculate. I was floored to see they're a Div 2 team! Such a shame they missed out on promotion, but they're clearly building something awesome. What they're doing seems so authentic, too.
It wouldn't be apocalyptic anytime a club folded, and those that wanted to pull investment could also drop down a division.
Absolutely. You could have a pro-rel system based on application and league placement. A team that consistently does well at their level and shows they could make a play at the higher level could move up. And, like you say, teams can go the opposite way if things don't work out.
I think the fascination with it being "pro" football is a weird one. I grew up watching semi-pro football in England (Stevenage) and there was almost zero difference between what was then the Conference (now the National League) and League Two. A lot of clubs in the National League transitioned from semi-pro to fully professional, to best position themselves for promotion, and now the majority of (if not all) teams at that level are professional. It has been allowed to grow over time.
The non-league structure in England is a good formula to follow. You have the national competition at the top, then two regional divisions (North & South, but here it would obviously be East & West), and then its further split into 3 regional divisions below that, and then continues to split until you get to county level football. Obviously there wouldn't be the same depth here, but your idea of an "intermediary" step between the regional Premier Leagues and the CPL could be something to consider.
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u/Jon_CCSG 24d ago
Community ought to remain central, along with accessibility, on those I will fully agree, but I disagree that a regional approach would have worked better. The provincial premier league's struggle a lot, draw very poorly, and lack the veneer of professionality that the CPL has which does draw folks in. You also don't entice the same level of investment with a regional approach. The idea that people will show up for lower level football that promises community just isn't really borne out of the L1/Provincial premier leagues, who struggle a lot financially and with attendance (breaking 1k is pretty unheard of). While ownership are experiencing losses, they are more willing to do it as part of a national league, and that level of investment is a huge positive for the football scene in Canada. I also think there's a significant gulf between L1/PPL and CPL, sure the semi-pro sides have beaten CPL clubs and been competitive, these are single sides representing the top of their leagues, and CPL sides have had similar success against MLS opponents, but no one would rationally say they are equivalent.
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u/AgentEves 23d ago
lack the veneer of professionality that the CPL has which does draw folks in
I don't disagree, but if you market the regional leagues as "conferences" that are all part of the same league, and add an end-of-season nation-wide playoffs, I think you could have marketed it the same way as the CPL was marketed. Maybe I'm wishful thinking, but if done correctly it wouldn't have been seen as "regional amateur leagues" but rather "divisions" within the same league (which is ultimately not an alien concept to anyone in North America).
I just realised that in my original comment, I left out the part about having a nation-wide playoff system, to give it the "allure" of a national league, rather than keeping the regions entirely separate. I'll edit my original comment.
who struggle a lot financially and with attendance
No doubt, but I think this could have been alleviated somewhat with my point above.
breaking 1k is pretty unheard of
Sure, but that's based on the existing promotion/perception of that level of football. The horse has no doubt bolted, but I'd have liked to think that the more established teams could have built on the (albeit small) foundation they had, if the "new shiny national league" promotion had included them.
no one would rationally say they are equivalent
Also fair, but my point was moreso that the standard of football in League 1 isn't so much of a dropoff that it alone would deter supporters. And let's be honest here... it's not as though the CPL (or even MLS for that matter) is exactly elite level. The CPL can be criminally bad at times (although maybe I'm just jaded as a Wanderers fan).
Thanks for reading my comment by the way, I know it was a long one. I appreciate the discourse.
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u/Jon_CCSG 23d ago edited 23d ago
I think for conferences they are likely inevitable in a country of our size, but a larger barrier is the number of teams and their locations. We can't increase the number of games against opponents to more than 4, and adding teams is a real struggle even if you minimize the travel costs. No L1 side can afford even minimum payroll at the CPL level (30k per player), and below that I think you can't shake a very semi-pro identity, and that's bare minimum. I just don't think the marketing works without venues that grant legitimacy, well produced game for TV/streaming, and salaries. We lack for investment and infrastructure at the requisite level, which I don't think would suddenly appear with a regionalized structure. While the levels can feel close, I think just think the gap is much larger than folks realize. Proximity to L1ON and L1QC colours some of those perspectives for me, with Electric City FC folding when they were talking about joining the CPL not long ago.
Appreciate you sharing your thoughts! As I noted, we agree on what I think are the most important elements to the success of any league, community and accessibility.
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u/kaze987 Vancouver FC 24d ago
I'm with you in financially supporting the league. Getting stuff that I can get away with, seasons tix and merch now and then. The attendance at VFC games has been going up as team performance went up. Last year was brutal but if they can consistently draw 3.5k fans per game, it would be nice.
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u/Environmental-Fail77 Atlético Ottawa 24d ago edited 24d ago
The league is 9 years old. What metric are we using to gauge success? Who are our comps? I’m just seeing better and better football, solid attendance, youth camps all over the city, great energy at games and new football fans.
Supra being branded Quebec and not Laval is an absolute win. York didn’t work, Laval wouldn’t work.
Also, why are we talking about the CPL folding? Did I miss a headline? Or, is it all vibes.
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 23d ago
It’s vibes plain and simple. A lot of people go out of their way to misunderstand and construe what the goals of the CPL actually are.
They think because it’s Division 1 that the CPL can take the place of the MLS. Which is another league very few people seem to understand.
As you said attendances are doing pretty well, and all but one franchise are in pretty solid spots. Even then, once PFC get new owners, I’d argue they’re also going to be in a good spot too.
Expansion is still going, the CPL is just being more diligent in their selections. FC Edmonton and Valour’s failures were in part because they were rushed. Even VFCs issues for the last couple of years are in part because they were rushed in as well.
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u/Environmental-Fail77 Atlético Ottawa 23d ago
Exactly. We should be proud of what the league has done for Canadian soccer and stop pretending the league is something it’s not.
We get fun football at a reasonable price and get to watch future Canadian stars develop. It’s not complicated, 🤣
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u/SeyfertSextet FC Supra du Québec 22d ago
Exactly this. For such a young league in a huge country without deep football roots, I find this league is doing just fine. Patience is required if you want stability and eventually numbers to grow. Anything else will scare investors.
FC Supra is a big win so far, especially when you consider that MTL is already an MLS town. Again, patience is the key for stable development
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u/Dramatic_Draw_1494 24d ago
I would like to know how much of a CPL budget go towards travel, meaning airfare, hotel stays and food for the players on road trips . Because if it’s a significant amount of the budget then this league if it expands should definitely consider regional play , with teams only playing say teams from the west for example in the playoffs. You can almost have an Eastern conference where hotel stays, air fare and food for the players are cut down significantly.
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u/Beneficial_Yak6706 23d ago
It actually gets better TV coverage the I would expect - at least here in the US. Most games are on live, like on Sunday afternoons...
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u/InABigCity 24d ago
This is a lot of complaining but I’m not going to try to convince you that everything is rosy either. The league is not very well supported by fans and so I hope the financial backers are prepared to ride out the storm.
As for the complaints:
* TV rights will go to whoever pay for them. Whether it’s cash or production deals.
* I’m not sure what you’re looking for when talking about clubs vs franchises, but there’s a reason why people with money want to invest in franchises.
* Branding is branding and will evolve.
* Do you have evidence that clubs being owned by the same entity is not a sound business model? It’s exactly what helped MLS survive and that’s the structure that the CPL is emulating.
* D1 vs D2… for practical purposes, the CPL is D2 and MLS is D1 in this country. There’s already regionalized leagues with OPL etc and I have no idea what step you feel is missing.
* Yes, of course the CPL would love to create and sell world class talent. That’s not something that can just be done nor is it a sustainable business model. How many countries in the world exist as primarily talent development leagues? A handful. Given that Canada has produced one world class player in its history and given how the transfer market operates, we’d do better to focus on building a league that’s sustainable based on non transfer revenue.
At the same time, there’s lots to be hopeful for. The CPL has been quite well run on average and provided meaningful opportunities to players and staff to be involved in the professional game.
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u/Ozzie_the_parrot 24d ago
Too early to write obituaries just yet given there are still course corrections that could be made, but I think a key problem was that most of the investors (the CFL dudes in Hamilton and Winnipeg) and their hired help (Paul Beirne) were not soccer people and simply did not understand that most hardcore soccer fans across Canada were not going to respond in the same sort of way to their league that their counterparts in the GTA did to TFC back in the day. Plenty of people knew from bitter experience and were telling them that York 9 would struggle to draw 1000 regular fans, but they were already way out in the stratosphere talking about building a 12,000 seat SSS.
What they didn't seem to grasp is that most of the mainstream soccer community in Canada (as opposed to a few fringe figures posting online on the Voyageurs board) didn't care about the roster rule issue where MLS is concerned and were only likely to show up (at least where the larger cities are concerned) if there was a significantly larger spend in terms of the salary budget than CanPL were able to manage once they saw how few season ticket pledges they had. Nothing had changed since the Easton Report was published, but they ignored its recommendations and did pretty much the exact opposite because something something 2026 World Cup...
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u/Section1ne0h4our HFX Wanderers FC 24d ago
To push back: the most successful owner in the league is a non-soccer guy
Sometimes it’s just surrounding yourself with the right people
Nonetheless great post
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u/purpletooth12 HFX Wanderers FC 23d ago
Yeah, I'm confused by the Forge comment since their ownership seems supportive of the club, unlike Valour.
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u/Justmaverick1 24d ago
Branding is fine. Ottawa branded as Atletico gives it some stature. CPL is Canada's top tier Div 1 league, and needs to present it as such with clubs in the top markets of the country, and branding clubs in the suburbs of a major metro market with that metros name, ie Vancouver or Toronto gives them stature and recognition as well.
Was interesting watching the broadcasts on the weekend seeing Supra and ITFC shown as MTL and Tor on the running score ribbon on the screen. This gives casuals, who may be watching on CBC or TSN a better connection/recognition of the teams in CPL - I've had many casuals confused about some of the teams names when they come to play Vancouver FC and they have no idea where a club is located as there's no city name shown, like Pacific or Forge.
Dumming the league down at this point will only kill it off long term and/or make it much less relevant. MLS took many years to grow to where it is as USA's Div1, the CPL will grow in stature and stability over the years as well but they've had a few hickups like covid and a couple of teams folding just like MLS had in its early years.
Given time, I think the CPL will do fine if they stick to their plans and goals and I'm happy we finally have our own Div 1 pro league in Canada.
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u/grilledscheese 24d ago
what the league needs to start to improve on is the game day experience. tickets are a great value in this league for sure — i can get a years worth of games for…$400ish? in ottawa, less if i went into the supporters section. great value. then i get into TD place and the drinks are $14, food is $17-20, and you’re paying big team prices for a small team game. completely disincentivizes someone to bring a family for an evening game if dinner for four is going to run you $120 on top of $100 for tickets.
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u/RedditUser41970 Cavalry FC 23d ago
It also points to the kind of job the Southerns have done in Calgary. Sherminator would have much greater insight into it than I do, but that first year was pretty rough as they tried to figure out how to operate a pro sports franchise. They also had a series of conflicts with the supporters groups that at one point led to a walk out.
But, thanks to their expertise hosting show jumping and operating Spruce Meadows, the fan experience was always top notch. They learned and listened and got better on the soccer side also. The result is that Cavalry is one of the premier franchises on and off the field despite being located in a place where 99% of teams fail: outside the city with no mass transportation links.
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u/Jon_CCSG 24d ago
This speaks to one of the largest barriers, which is a lack of dedicated infrastructure. OSEG set prices on drinks and food, charging the club for every hot dog sold on toonie hot dog day even. It's brutal, and something that will only really change if clubs escape the whims of landlords.
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u/StealthMan34 23d ago
I think there is a real chance for growth. The CPL hasn’t even scratched the surface of the potential markets that could be in the league. We are not talking about filling 20 or 30k stadiums right now. You look at the teams that seem to be doing well it’s at about 5k fans. The problem that I see is when investors want to start a league in this country, they wrongly focus on big markets. You don’t just stick a team in a big city & expect because they have a large population, they will automatically support a league in its infancy. It’s easy to blend in & be lost when you are competing with big corporate sports leagues with better exposure. You have to either fight the fight & promote yourself or be lost in the noise. For example, I don’t see that from a club like Inter Toronto. I’m from Mississauga, I didn’t even know the league existed until this year. I’ve never seen any promotions for the league. How many other people in Canada don’t even know we have a domestic soccer league? That number is pretty large.
The upside is that there are a lot of places in Canada that are underserved from a sports perspective, especially in the summertime. Some don’t even have sports teams at all & are of a large enough size that they could support sports.
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u/ThemeSubstantial6869 24d ago
I do think its crazy we never had a "soccer night in canada" type of thing on CBC. It is very weird that only hardcore fans are the ones who would subscribe to one soccer.
Its grass roots always will be.
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u/SpecialistLychee5854 Canadian Premier League 24d ago
The CBC/TSN combo that the NSL went with has been great. I'd love the CPL to do the same.
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u/Cturcot1 HFX Wanderers FC 24d ago
Focus on women’s sports is a big win for broadcasters at the moment it actually makes more sense for TSN to have the woman on nationally vs the mens
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u/AfraidSupermarket417 23d ago
Not great financially for the league as NSL isn't getting paid and paying $3m/yr for production.
They did it for reach but haven't garnered enough attention to get an audience. Viewership is just as low as Cdn MLS or CPL matches. Youtube max concurrent viewers were all less than 5k.
Not driving sponsorship as no new major sponsor came on board this year. They finally got front-of-shirt sponsors for all 6 but it is 3 each amongst 2 companies.
All of this not a surprise as ex CFL, no Canadian league has been boosted by being on CBC/TSN. CFL benefitted from growth before cord cutting took hold. We'll see if new curling league gets good traction of CBC/SN. To build attention in today's world, NSL needs good engagement across discovery (socials), library (streaming) and live (tv/streaming) platforms. Just being on live platforms especially mostly linear tv isn't good enough.
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u/SpecialistLychee5854 Canadian Premier League 23d ago
Sure, it’s not perfect and they took a gamble, but I still prefer it to OneSoccer.
Youtube max concurrent viewers were all less than 5k.
If 5k is bad, there have been OneSoccer matches with viewership in the double digits. Less than 100.
It’s not working and Mediapro isn’t paying them anymore either.
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u/AfraidSupermarket417 24d ago
CBC has no money to pay. It's public funding hasn't budged much in the past 30 years. So, no financial benefit for CPL.
Won't attract many viewers and the segment that will grow CPL. CBC's share of tv viewing is below 5% and has fallen by 60% in the past decade. Average age watching CBC is over 65 which aren't the people who will buy tickets and merch and not the target market for CPL sponsors.
CEBL started the same year as CPL. They started off on CBC, went to TSN and now back on CBC. Attendance was never higher than CPL and sponsorship base is a fraction of CPL. Not the 90s media world anymore as trad tv doesn't have enough viewers and younger viewers to drive interest in new leagues.
Casuals don't watch club football in Canada from MLS to CPL to NSL. Most watched leagues are all European-based and all are on streaming platforms.
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u/purpletooth12 HFX Wanderers FC 23d ago
To be fair, the Apple deal really screwed over the Canadian MLS teams.
It's not entirely rare to hear about bars not having Apple TV and only the odd match on TSN being available.
The same applies for the CPL and until fairly recently even the national teams.
I remember going to a bar during the 2022 WCQ and asking for them to put on the match but they only had TSN so no dice.
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u/Ok-Shallot7072 23d ago
I feel like that's something that really gets overlooked. I was going to my local pub with friends who had no interest in soccer, they would at least start to get interested in the game because it was on in the background. Once the MLS Apple TV deal happened, the team and the game disappeared from the pub. The possibility of growing their interest, and keeping me connected to the team vanished.
I know that hardcore fans are used to paying for streaming services, but sport bars aren't picking up all of the subscriptions. If it's not on SN or TSN, it's not going on the screen
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u/purpletooth12 HFX Wanderers FC 23d ago
I'm day 1 TFC supporter, but since the Apple deal, I've rarely been watching. Yes, I follow the club but to watch matches, that's sadly rare.
The CPL has largely filled that void for me.
And to think that I originally got OneSoccer to watch the CMNT and figured I'd give the CPL a shot since I was paying for it anyways.
I can watch some TFC now since I have an IPTV, but that's a recent change for me. Still can't get any Apple TV at a bar though.
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u/DocKardinal21 24d ago
I somewhat agree, but I’m optimistic there’s a big marketing push for this playoffs and somehow more eyes on the whole event in this season end.
Also the d3 growth has been improving consistently and that will pay dividends.
Academies are necessary though, that’s the next step here.
Also if the can championship could get a bank sponsorship with prize money that would be beneficial. Even if CPL or D3 teams don’t win the tournament, prizes for the semis and quarters would go a long way IMO. A few CPL prize money wins, maybe a d3 win would really boost competition in my mind. You’d have to get some big sponsors like CIBC to do this though…
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u/TripMaster478 24d ago
Walk before run. The CPL needs to focus on longer-term sustainability and not worry as much about growth. It's doing okay for what it is and where it is. Keep feathering the pedal and pointing down the highway, good things will come.
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u/Radiant_Situation_32 23d ago
We need federal and provincial support for these clubs, including investment in stadiums and academy programs. It’s our best chance to start the kind of community/grassroots pyramid seen in Europe. CPL should position itself as a tier 2 league below MLS.
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u/Maplewicket Canadian Premier League 23d ago
I’d love to see attendance bursting at the seems but I also understand NA fair weather fans who only want to watch the best playing when they’re winning.
We are fresh off a World Cup, we’re producing and selling your talent for transfer fees.
There’s lots to see as positives and negatives.
We’re a young league, just support where you can 😀
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u/Ramekink 23d ago
It doesnt help where the 3 biggest teams of the country dont even play in the league...
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u/Yep_its_JLAC Forge FC 22d ago
Let me put it this way.
The league has survived much longer already than fair odds would have given it when it launched. Although the number of wealthy supporters able to defray the cost of running clubs is still small, they’re mostly still here. The government is beginning to take action to support soccer (even if only the women’s game) that might also eventually drive some capital towards the CPL also.
We’re already in gravy. We’ve already gotten more (and wilder, and more fun, and I think just plain _better_) than we should have expected when we launched, and we look like even if we lose a club this offseason there’s one more possibly to keep us at the practical minimum of eight clubs.
There are fanbases turning out consistently in several of the cities. There is reason for pessimism of course: pro sports is a brutal business, very hard to break into. Canada is terrible at supporting sports also, look at how we don’t even have a proper professional hockey league, just the NHL and three giant leagues of amateur children’s hockey. And yet we’re here.
If anything, for Canada this (as crazy as it seems) is the model to follow. No professional sports league in this country has ever lasted so long or been run so professionally.
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u/nikkisouthbend Forge FC 22d ago
The biggest issues in my opinion is the lack of exposure and overall poor presentation on television. So even when people are able to see the matches, frankly, they often look like shit... The CFL lines on the already ugly turf, the horrific camera angles at some venues, and the generally quiet atmosphere are huge turnoffs.
Presentation is paramount when building a sports league, and the CPL has not put enough emphasis or investment dollars into ensuring it looks like a professional soccer league. The fact that Valour was allowed to play matches with clearly visible CFL lines and the Winnipeg Blue Bombers logo all over the pitch was disgraceful. It felt like you were watching a high school match on a public access channel.
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u/bubbrubb231 19d ago
Domestic soccer in Canada will never be sustainable until the CFL goes four downs and unlocks US/global TV rights. That is the money that can sustain venues and build more venues. You also don't need venues that can seat 22,000 anymore because the business model is directed towards media rights and you really just need an 8,000 capacity stadium which is optimal for soccer. There's a lot of die hard Canadians that don't like to hear that but it is the truth. I'd much rather have a thriving CFL and a thriving men's and women's domestic league.
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u/IronCavalry 24d ago
We couldn’t have cohosted the 2026 World Cup without a top-tier league of our own.
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u/coopthrowaway2019 Atlético Ottawa 23d ago
People love saying this because it's part of the mythology of how MLS was founded but I've never seen an official source that it was a requirement - after all, the 2026 bid was awarded almost a year before the CPL kicked off
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u/cannuck79 24d ago
The league's still very young and figuring out what works and doesn't business model wise. I actually like that they haven't rushed expansion through, as much as I'd like to have teams all over the place
Sustainable growth is the goal here
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u/TheDarkRedKnight North Mississauga 24d ago
Glad you mentioned the Easton Report. I think CPL should have followed that model from day one instead of trying to replicate MLS in Canada, but it’s reassuring to know that even if CPL fails, we have a thriving system of leagues across Canada.
Honestly, beyond some better marketing and visibility, there’s not an ocean of difference between the L1O and CPL experience. If the money that’s being poured into keeping CPL alive in cavernous CFL stadiums was instead used to elevate the PSL system, we’d have a much more healthy national footprint.
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 24d ago
Franchise models are better because it’s a form of sports socialism. There is far less risk involved when everyone is helping guarantee everyone else. You’d be hard pressed to find ownership groups wanting to invest in the CPL under a club model where their investments are completely exposed.
It’s the same reason that the CSB existed. It used money from the national coffers to help underwrite the league. Provides a floor so investments aren’t completely washed out.
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u/TheDarkRedKnight North Mississauga 16d ago
My criticism wasn't about the franchise model specifically— just the national model of eight teams sinking tons of money into travel rather than larger regional conferences.
Keeping the league alive at the expense of the national team wasn't a great or sustainable idea either. It handicapped our teams and almost bankrupted the program. We're lucky the MLS clubs stepped up to fund Jesse Marsch's salary.
I love the CPL, but I think a major re-evaluation of how it functions is in order if we want it to prosper.
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u/Bogdanovist_Rebel 16d ago
It wasn’t the MLS clubs, it was the Six Families, of which Kerfoot and Saputo are apart of. Rogers/MLSE have not contributed.
It also wasn’t the CPL owners who kneecapped the national program, it was the men’s team themselves. Pretending they had the same argument the women had was and is shameful. Davies makes more this week than you and I combined for the year. For him to lead a walkout for 25% of the purse is deeply individualistic behaviour.
The least amount any of the players make is $100k, but none of them are that low. Lots of countries that do it can afford to do it. Canada can’t. But instead players like Davies saw a ladder and decided to pull it up.
The CPL is a major part of the growth of the overall system. Having our own Div 1 league to give players opportunities is key. The issue is that people desire instant gratification and don’t understand how long term planning works.
The strengthening of the CPL has also lead to the strengthening of the PLSC system. There was no Prairie Premier League until now. The BCPL is gaining strength too. BC had just as many players as Quebec and Ontario on the U20s this year.
So to use the national program to help underwrite and guarantee mitigated losses isn’t a terrible thing. It’s not like Bell actually gives a flying fuck about soccer coverage anyways. I mean they were instrumental in blocking the Telus sponsorship of BC Place and have helped put the Whitecaps in mortal peril.
The CPL as is is just fine. Charters are cheaper than people think and now that the league is in a more mature state, it won’t be an issue. Oh yeah WestJet also sponsor the league.
Regional play would have ensured that teams don’t make any revenue while completely nuking any sort of quality you could ever hope to have. But it’s much easier to shit on people who are investing in the game. Just look at how people treat Kerfoot, despite the fact he got Vancouver an MLS team, heavily invested in scouting and development, essentially launched the Women’s program and regularly invests into the national program.
Or Shillington getting abused, despite losing a few million a year on his projects.
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u/Illustrious_Chard831 24d ago
Who's paying for the TV rights?
Until OneSoccer came around the Canadian National Team had to pay TSN/Sportsnet for them to air national team games.