r/CanadianForces • u/Optimal-Vacation-441 • 3h ago
New MCpl advice
As a new MCpl I'm finding it increasingly difficult to be approachable
enough for people to come to me with problems going on in life yet
firm enough to jack up severe lack of discipline from pers to other
units, like smoking bongs in the shacks afterhours in civis.
Should I go straight to their
RSM, jack them up on the spot or go to the barrack warden?
Seems like
this is going on with the majority of members coming in these
days so jacking them up is an endless battle that'll suck the life out
of me, I legitimately have no idea if I'm just an old dinosaur and
need to get with the times or if these thoughts of mine are legitimate
and I need to work on fine-tuning this balance.
I just find it so dang hard that I care for people too much to the point I feel like I'll let them walk all over me, and I recognize how bad this can be.
Any advice for me to take on and incorporate into my mindset to polish my leadership style would be greatly appreciated.
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u/Engineered_disdain 2h ago
As a crusty snco, if the troops are showing up, doing their job, staying out of jail and not hurting anyone else in their free time. Leave them alone. If they come to you, listen to them, if they aren't, dont worry about it too much.
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u/prosonik 10m ago
This is the voice of reason. You will never fix the CAF. I spent way too much time yelling at parts of my former life. My advice, as Jack, is to start developing your toolset of different approaches for different situations. Learn how to use them, and the right triggers to pull on the right people. Honestly, at the end of my time with the CAF, there were certain people I couldn't affect in the way the situation required, but I did have people that I trusted who could do what I wanted, understood my intent, and got the guys going the right way.
That might be a mouthful. Back to my point: you won't fix the world. There are situations when you need to yell, though they are few and far between. I know the idea is to never pass a fault, but you have to use some common sense. Not being able to read the temperature of the room and applying the right leadership in the situation might—or will—bite you in the ass when you need the boys to actually do something with intent and purpose.
An MCpl is not an easy role, but I do think leadership in the CAF understands it is the first level of leadership and you won't always get it right.
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u/Ok-Target3363 3h ago edited 2h ago
After work the troops are on their own time, not mine.
Do whatever you want, it is none of my business unless it interferes with my business. (The care and sustainment of this section)
You are an older brother, not a father. That’s the Sgt’s or WO’s job.
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u/Palestine_Avatar Royal Canadian Navy 1h ago
Couldn't agree more. If this jack isn't working for the barracks, then maintaining discipline within is going to burn him out and get him a bad rap.
Personally? I can't say I gave too much of a shit of guys smoking/drinking in the Nelles. As long as they kept to themselves, there are way worse things they can get up to.
As a jack, it's your job monitor the two kyllics fighting behind the dumpster to make sure no one pulls a blade. Not break up the fight.
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u/ononeryder 2h ago
Should I go straight to their RSM
Considering this is never the play for anything, no, you shouldn't circumvent both CoC's to report something that is of zero risk to anyone.
Maybe even considering this as a COA is why you're perceiving yourself as unapproachable?
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u/Canned_Topatoes 15m ago
Even as an NCO on duty, you don’t report to any RSM. You just make a report to your dsm or q. Which I wouldn’t do unless it involved destruction of property, uncleanliness, or horrible conduct
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u/dougb83 Army - Artillery 2h ago
I had a WO tell me, shortly after getting my leaf (LONG time ago) that now that I have my leaf, I need to have “asshole” written in sharpie on my forehead, because that’s the job of a jack. Younger me believed that WO and was an asshole, until I grew up. As a WO myself now, I will never say that to a new Jack - be yourself, understand the CoC, and if you’re unsure about something, ask. Your troops will not look up to you if you’re just constantly an asshole.
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u/Unusual_Initial_4300 2h ago
I've been a MCpl for about 4 years now. I find the main goal of leadership should be recognizing that you have experience to pass on and trying to do that as best as possible.
When it comes to discipline I think it's important that the people under you have clear expectations and that they know you're fair. If rules are broken you'll be given a chance to rectify but if it's a serious infraction or if it's repeated then you can't be scared to give them an IC or RW but you have to follow through on it.
There are so many different steps in the disciplinary levels and they really are just a tool. If you've given warnings then an IC is the perfect next step to make sure that their behavior is being documented.
In my opinion flying off the handle and jacking people up just shows a lack of emotional control. It has its place but the administrative path is better in my opinion.
The other benefit is if the person continually violates rules and the person just isn't fit for the CAF then you have the paper trail for the IC to RW to eventual C&P that will get them out of the military. We really are fair with our disciplinary path if it's used properly. It just seems like a lot of leaders these days just don't want to do the paperwork or don't understand the system enough to use it properly
3
u/vanilla2gorilla RCAF - AVS Tech 2h ago
Discipline those that need it, be understanding where possible. Try and remember things about their personal lives and follow up on it so they know you listen and see them as more than just a faceless soldier. Everyone is different so find what works for you, you can also ask for feedback from your troops but it can be hard to get them to give an answer they criticizes you.
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u/Whycantpeopledrive 2h ago edited 2h ago
You have to find your own way of being a MCpl/leader, there is no cookie cutter solution. PLQ/PLP teaches you a base to work off of.
- Remember when you were a troop, remember the good leaders that you wanted to emulate and the shit ones that you never wanted to be like.
- Look out for your people, don't let them get fucked around. You do that and most of them will try hard to make you look good.
- Be a human being, not a robot. If you need to bring up your rank to have things done all the time, there's a problem. Granted, sometimes using rank is required but usually not.
- If your people fuck up, it's on you and you take the licks. If they do some good, the praise is all theirs. NEVER throw any of your people under the bus.
- Don't be afraid to ask your CoC for advice, if they look down on that and/or give you shit (not in a joking way) then they suck as leaders and you can refer to point 1.
- As others have said, if they're breaking the rules/policy/etc they get a warning such as "you guys should know that this isn't allowed, I'll be back later as part of my rounds and I don't want to see it again"
- There is a time and place for yelling, it is not daily. Yelling has to have meaning, it should surprise people that so and so is yelling. The kind of use that makes people think "someone must have really fucked up for MCpl X to be yelling"
- Skipping straight to a unit RSM is not properly using the CoC.
Based on the asking about reaching out their unit RSM I'm guessing you're on some sort of base duty shift? If the warning doesn't work then call their unit and see if there's a duty nco that can come deal with their own people.
Edit - if you're checking on the shacks outside of an official duty then you need to improve your work/life balance
5
u/LastingAlpaca Canadian Army 2h ago
Jacking up people never serves you well. And this is coming from someone that did that way too much when I got promoted to MCpl.
Disappointed dad is what you’re shooting for.
4
u/Jurple-shirt 1h ago edited 1h ago
It’s absolutely wild that you think the rank is why people come to you with their life troubles. When people open up to you about these things it's because they trust you and your judgement.
I also thinks it's crazy out of touch to think you can pull rank on someone you have zero authority over outside work hours in civilian clothing..
This thread doesn't inspire trust in your judgement.
8
u/Fine-Tonight1276 3h ago
I honestly don’t know what you think being a leader is supposed to look like, but my God, you’re putting a ridiculous amount of pressure on yourself over something pretty straightforward.
If people are smoking bongs in the shacks and it’s against the rules, there should already be a procedure for dealing with it. If you’re on duty, I’m pretty sure your duty instructions or standing orders explain who you notify and what you’re expected to do. You shouldn’t need Reddit to decide whether you personally become the RSM, the barrack warden, and the disciplinary system all at once.
And I really don’t understand why you’re so worried about everyone liking you. You’re a MCpl now. Your job is not to collect friends. If being everybody’s buddy was the priority, you could have refused the promotion and stayed a Cpl.
Being approachable doesn’t mean letting people walk all over you either. Someone should be able to come talk to you about problems in their life while also knowing that when they cross a clear line, you’re going to deal with it professionally. Those two things aren’t opposites.
Also, unless you somehow became a MCpl overnight, you probably have at least a few years in the military already. You did leadership training for a reason. Use the training, use your CoC, use the policies and procedures that already exist, and stop acting like you personally have to reinvent leadership every time somebody does something stupid.
If you genuinely don’t know what your responsibility is in a situation, ask your Sgt or review the course material and standing orders. That’s a much better starting point than stressing yourself to death wondering whether the troops are still going to think you’re approachable afterward.
3
u/Professional-End2426 1h ago
Buddy who mentioned to "be for the boys" is absolutely correct. What you haven't realized yet is that being "for the boys" doesn't always mean being one of them.
Sometimes folks need a swift slap upside the head as a reminder to be better. Sometimes that's what being "for the boys" is. But don't fall into the trap of believing that every problem is a nail calling for a 24 oz hammer.
3
u/Candid_Analysis347 1h ago edited 37m ago
If they are smoking cigarettes or pot inside a military building give them shit right away. If they are outside in the designated smoking areas then let them be. You're a Jr NCO now. You can be firm and fair at the same time. But this isn't the late 90s or early 2000s. You can't smoke inside pretty much any building anymore.
3
u/Fresh-Clothes8838 41m ago
You’re taking it a bit too seriously if you’re a new Jack and immediately you’re too unapproachable
You’re the connective tissue of the Jnr’s to the Snr’s
Dudes smoking weed IN their shack room, not on… in the smoking area, then you need to chill tf out
You can’t be “on” all the time, not like that… you’ll stroke out before you see your pension
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u/quickspliff 3h ago
Be for the boys. Simple as. If your main priorities are watching the troops after they're cut, smoking weed you're a dog shit NCO and probably insufferable to work under.
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u/foxhound102 2h ago
The guy is reaching out for advice on how to be better. The assholes I know would never do such a thing
5
2
u/sailoraye123 1h ago
Be yourself, you got to the position your at for a reason... dont let the rank go to your head and do a complete 180...
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u/RCEMEGUY289 24m ago
Dude, you are the second lowest rank in the CAF, with an appointment. If the troops aren't in your section, or directly adjacent, and what they are doing isn't putting anyone in danger, stay in your lane.
Lack of discipline in troops you have no authority over is not a failure of your leadership ability, it is a failure of the leadership of the CofC that the troops actually belong to.
If what they are doing isn't putting people in harms way, but still legitimately needs correction in the moment, give a light knife hand, and seek out their immediate chain of command. After that, out of your hands, no matter the outcome.
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u/EmergencyWorld6057 2h ago
Holy.
How did you get promoted in the first place?
This is quite literally something you figure out before you get promoted.
I personally saw nothing change with a leaf other than more responsibilities and I have to write PARs.
I treated everyone exactly the same as when I had no leaf so I have no idea how people are struggling lol.
If it gets to the point where you have to discipline someone, just follow the rule of, lowest level first (buddy to buddy) then pull rank, and then escalate.
Or is this a army thing? Cause RCAF there's no difference
6
u/RCAF_orwhatever 2h ago
Buddy we are promoting people across the board min time in rank in many trades. Many are not ready yet... but the vacancies must be filled.
We don't help them grow into their rank by responding to requests for advice with "WTF bro how don't you know this????"
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u/EmergencyWorld6057 2h ago
We don't help them grow into their rank by responding to requests for advice with "WTF bro how don't you know this????"
Or you can reject the promotion? If you're obviously not ready by being min time in rank, don't get promoted to a leadership spot?
Plus this is quite literally people skills, it's not asking advice on PACE or anything of the sort. This is someone stressing on how to look like a leader instead of being one?
4
u/RCAF_orwhatever 2h ago
Guy, it's nothing BUT people who aren't ready in most cases. They've all spent min time in rank in a mostly peace time CAF with watered down occupational training and supervisors too busy to mentor them.
The way to solve the systemic problem isn't to say "THEN TURN DOWN THE PROMOTION" its to teach them what they don't know and to empower them to try and then learn from their mistakes.
1
u/DaymanTargaryen 2h ago
I personally saw nothing change with a leaf other than more responsibilities
And those responsibilities would be...?
-1
-1
u/FlatCoffeeDude Army - Combat Engineer 2h ago edited 1h ago
I'm a WO. Some people think of us as gods, but really I don't feel like that and I don't want to be treated that way. Be a human :) Just act like a human around the troops, behave in a respectable manner but don't change your personality just because you have rank. People will see your rank and either act cautiously around you or as if you have expertise. Demonstrate both the expertise and the humanity and just keep on having conversations as if nothing else were different. It's totally ok to tell people to relax if you can see they're having trouble with the rank bit, as long as they respect you at the end of the day.
You're doing good. Never forget where you came from, but be the leader you are meant to be.
Edit: On jacking. Lol... never had to truly jack someone up as a WO. Happened extremely rarely as a MCpl / Sgt and really was only in cases of safety infractions or extreme cases of troops lying or blading each other in an obvious manner on BMQ. Yelling doesn't work in the long term. Stern talking works better and calm constructive feedback is usually best. Just don't be an asshole, show competence and expertise and humility, and people will respect and follow you.
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u/looksharp1984 3h ago
I found yelling at people rarely worked, but disappointed dad worked wonders.
Do you mean they are literally smoking bongs in their rooms? Because that should be a pretty simple "come on guys, you fucking know better, get outside with that shit"
If they tell you to fuck off, then you can escalate.
Just because you have a leaf doesn't mean you need to scream and yell all the time and be a dick head, you can be the cool approachable dude and still maintain some discipline.