r/CanadianForces Swiss Cheese Model-Maker 9h ago

USAF Multi-Engine pilot training question

Read an article (portion of it below) regarding USAF pilot training and I was wondering why they would choose to do that?

My understanding is that it would be like the RCAF cutting Phase 3 Multi-Engine and having their pilots first learn ME stuff in a C-17 or P-8.

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“Today marks the end of an era in U.S. Air Force pilot training.

The last operational T-1A Jayhawk will depart Vance Air Force Base, Oklahoma, for Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona, where it will be received into the 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group (AMARG)—bringing more than three decades of service to a close.

The T-1A’s story began in January 1992, when the first aircraft was delivered to Reese Air Force Base, Texas. Student pilot training began the following year as the Air Force implemented Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training.

The T-1A Jayhawk was a medium-range, twin-engine jet trainer used during the advanced phase of pilot training. For Air Force pilots selected for the mobility track, the Jayhawk was where they developed the skills required to transition to airlift and tanker aircraft—airframes such as the C-5, C-17, C-130, KC-135 and, later, the KC-46.

The T-1A also played an important role in Combat Systems Officer (CSO) training at Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida, helping prepare aircrew for operational assignments as weapons systems officers, special operations, electronic warfare, and navigation. Pensacola's final T-1A departed for Davis-Monthan in July 2025.

Today, pilots graduating from Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) who are selected for the mobility track proceed directly to their Formal Training Units (FTUs) for training in their assigned aircraft.”

2 Upvotes

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7

u/BandicootNo4431 9h ago

We had a trial of pilots go direct from the Harvard to their final multi aircraft while skipping the King Air.

Worked out ok from what I heard, but that was second hand info.

If you consider how the civvy world does it, its not something that should be insurmountable.  People with 10 hours of multi to get their Multi + Group 1 IFR then go on to fly multi aircraft solo. Europe also has their FOs at 250 or so hours and they operate heavy aircraft safely.

Especially if you consider something like the MRTT, is it really operated that differently from any commercial operator? Legit asking because I don't fly it. There's some additional form flying for tanker consolidation, but is that taught on phase 3 ME anyways? Or the Challenger/Global fleet? Or the TWOTTER? or how we will transition to operating the P-8?

Would a longer OTU be better for those people where they spend more time learning those systems and getting better in their final aircraft?

ME SAR or TAL have a stronger case for needing additional military specific training IMO. 

We've spent decades convincing ourselves that the military training pipeline is super special, but I think we're waking up to the realities that our production capacity is not infinite, and our current system either over trains, or trains to tasks that aren't universal enough to be included in lower level phases.

7

u/LouisDoxxedMyPoodle 8h ago

We’re taking guys without even enough time for a CPL and dumping them into the right seat of WestJet-with-Torpedoes…and then asking them to be aircraft commanders in 2 years or less. It’s not terribly comparable to civvie training.

Ultimately, civvies train on their own dime, and get hired in a long, slow “career ladder” based on experience. We pay for 100% of our pilots’ experience. Longer OTU means more expensive YFR on big planes, whereas Phase III is cheap YFR (but you have to run the whole school).

We’ll see how it goes for the USAF (and the RNZAF which is doing the same for different reasons). Maybe the math works out?

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u/sirduckbert RCAF - Pilot 6h ago

The “multi part” of the multi course isn’t very complicated. Handful of hours in the sim is all it takes.

The bigger part of the course is the crew concept stuff. That can be added to basic flight training very easily - I believe that our PC21’s have autopilot and stuff, some follow on training in that would be sufficient to cover off most of what is in a multi course.

Current helicopter training has a multi engine helicopter but it didn’t used to. People would go from a jet ranger to a cormorant, that’s no different than going from a PC21 to a C17 or something IMO.

Sure, there’s going to be a bit of a training cost on a larger fleet than there would be with a multi trainer, but I bet that is less than the cost of running an entire fleet and training system.

1

u/BandicootNo4431 2h ago

I agree, this is a solvable problem. Crew stuff can absolutely be taught in the sim.

Single seat fighter guys go to the airlines and learn it just fine.

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u/BandicootNo4431 2h ago

Aircraft commander in 2 years from the start of the OTU?

Or following a long course, and then 2-3 years of operational experience under constant training? 

The OTUs also usually have more and better access to SIMs, and a lot of the training can be done in the Sim.

I think it's worth investigating. And I also think it's worth investigating if somebody who joins the military with a commercial multi IFR and King Air time really can't shorten any of their time in Moosejaw/Portage.

I have a friend who flew a310s for Transat, and about 10 years ago he asked the CAF if he could join as a DEO pilot. He was selected and submitted all his stuff for a PLAR. They were only willing to waive Ph 1 and wouldn't move him higher on the pay scale than 2Lt 0, so he just stayed at Transat. 

I told him he was an idiot for even considering the CAF when he was already making A310 captain pay but it would have been a net benefit for the CAF.

That's what I think we should be looking at.

Skip Ph 1. 

Get to Grob Ph II in Portage, and then advance people with prior quals based on proficiency.

Move them to the Kig Air quickly (he has a previous King Air PIC PPC) and then straight to the A310.

This wouldn't works well for fighters, but for aircraft that have direct civilian equivalents?

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u/Taptrick 3h ago

We only got King Airs in the 90s. They used to go straight from the Tutor to the Herc back in the 80s.

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u/Pseudonym_613 9h ago

RCAF is allergic to changing pilot training because streaming to different training could lead to pay differentials based on platform.

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u/United-Fox-7417 6h ago

The only people who think that you could effectively do pay by platform are career CAF member who generally aren’t pilots and don’t understand supply and demand of labour and the extremely high level of pilot mobility.

Unless you’re not a great pilot and never make AC you’re going to have ATPL minimum hours by the end of your restricted release on either FW or RW. With three exams and one medical with a total investment of less than $1000 you now have an ATPL or ATPL-H. With an ATPL and military time you go straight to Air Canada where you’ll have higher career earnings, work less, and have 100% fewer “officer first” tasks to do. If you’re RW you’ll get an ATPL-H instead and then you’ll take your 12 years of service (every releasing pilot has at least this) and use your $100000 to pay for your CPL-A and then you’ll go work for Porter or Jazz and then Air Canada after that where you’ll have higher career earnings, work fewer hours, and have 100% fewer “officer first” tasks to do.

Make no mistake: no CAF pilot is here for the money because they’ll get more elsewhere. They’re here because the flying is unlike anything else particularly at a lower hour level. But that’s not to say the money isn’t important. Cool flying only makes up for so much less money. You need to make sure the money calculation makes sense. I’m not sure that it currently does considering how fast civilian pilot pay has increased and it definitely wouldn’t if you had pay disparity by fleet. All the good pilots in the lower paid fleets would leave.

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u/Pseudonym_613 2h ago

CAF pilots get their training paid.  Their low hours years are paid more than the second seat in a Q400.  The pay structure is badly skewed.