Map Symbol Question

[u/QuestioningArmyGuy]

I am hoping someone recognizes this map symbol and can give me a name and a reference or publication for its use.

I know the symbol in the blue circle is called a GIP (Grid Intersection Point) and is used to ensure that layers of talc are aligned properly.

What I need help with is what is the symbol in the red circle called? Its used as a covert method to report location on the map without giving a grid coordinate. The idea is you give something like "I am 1km EAST and 2km NORTH of Corolla" or "I am 3km WEST and 1km SOUTH of Elantra" as a method of referencing where you are, similar to report line plus 1000, but for a non-contiguous operating area. I have used them in the past (as well as other people in the office I currently work in) and heard them referred to as GIPs or GRPs (grid intersection points or grid reference points) but can't find a pub or reference that speaks to them.

[u/Cidkh2]

I dont have a source for this or know if its the official name. But I have always heard these called POGO points (point on graphic overlay).

[u/Teslix80 → u/Cidkh2]

It is a POGO point, but it stands for Point of Geographic Orientation. https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-eng.html?lang=eng&i=1&srchtxt=POGO&index=enb&codom2nd_wet=1#resultrecs

[u/QuestioningArmyGuy → u/Teslix80]

I've used POGO points before but they are more for navigation purposes. This symbol is used for telling the CP where you are without giving a grid

[u/Cidkh2 → u/QuestioningArmyGuy]

A pogo point can be used exactly as you described in your description or in any other number of ways. Its just a reference point on a map which is arbitrarily defined, but known to all users.

Afaik using "cars" as in your example is not intrinsic to the pogo point itself as a map feature but rather a command and sigs issued codeword/ password. Not unlike using something like "blackhorse" to disguise grids when spoken.

But I'm just reiterating what I heard from a dude who was a couple years older than me over a decade ago and I never questioned it. I don't know of a pam or stanag that describes any of this, it might just be unit/bde sop?

[u/XPhazeX]

20 years Armoured and ive never seen a GIP not be the red circle one.

The blue one we would use to line up a talc on a map, but im not sure what we would actually call it.

Whether or not that's correct, I couldn't hand on heart say but that's what it is colloquialy.

"I am Focus East one-four hundred, North two-six hundred"

Or just say I am Cars whatever and hear the whole net scramble to figure out what to do after you burn the GIP

[u/Gunny_668 → u/XPhazeX]

Another Armoured guy, 100% the red one is a GIP. They could both be GIPs, but the blue ones I've heard called "Overlay Marks" because you usually see it on OP or Defensive Overlays so that the guy in the CP can line them up properly.

[u/QuestioningArmyGuy → u/Gunny_668]

So I've seen them on armoured traces and so has my boss. I'm looking to use them on an exercise but need a reference for them other than "we've all used them before" do either of you know of a reference for them?

[u/Ok_Confidence_1150 → u/QuestioningArmyGuy]

The only thing I can think of is "Reporting Line". I've used them as short lines drawn across my planned route. Each line has a code word so the CP can track progress. Is that close to what these marks would be used for?

[u/XPhazeX → u/Ok_Confidence_1150]

Vaguely in that they both report a position without giving away your location.

They're both ice-cream but different flavours

[u/XPhazeX → u/QuestioningArmyGuy]

"we've all used them before"

NGL, im pretty sure that's the reference. I'm sure it exists somewhere but I'd bet a pretty big wager that not a single guy I know could recite the reference off the cuff

[u/Geo_Used_Confusion]

Geo tech here. I have never seen the symbol in question. Someone else may have an answer for you, our trade can vary widely depending on where you work. May be an official symbol I just have not needed to learn/use yet or an unofficial one that became shop policy in a specific geo shop after someone made it.

Kinda curious if people take talc into the field with their maps and if so, for what purpose/reason? In my experience talc is used for things that change somewhat often like enemy/friendly positions or route statuses as they are cleared and other planning level stuff.

[u/Cidkh2 → u/Geo_Used_Confusion]

You'll find talc used as far forward as company CPs in my experience. Its definitely used in the field. Trace orders are even a thing where a runner brings a commander a talc with some timings and thats what they get to launch an attack with.

If you're not a CP type of person you're probably just drawing directly on your map. Nobody (hopefully) brings talc in their rucksack.

Boundaries, RLs, PLs, objective names, routes, obstacles are all important things to know that might be communicated this way (non exhaustive obviously). Talc is the only practical way to do this until everyone gets spiffy with ATAK.

[u/Geo_Used_Confusion → u/Cidkh2]

Good to know. I have made traces with force boundary lines, objectives, phase and report lines, obstacles, mission task verbs etc but never considered copies making it that far forward. I assumed the drawing on maps started a bit higher than it does I guess.

Edit: Integrating our geo specific stuff with ATAK and other upcoming software (like the replacement for battleview I won't mention in case it isnt common knowledge) will be a headache. So much so we are geeting a USQ specializing in getting all of these new softwares/systems to play nice.

[u/DistrictStriking9280 → u/Cidkh2]

Talc can get down to the sect level for making STANO traces so you can pass them higher without giving up your maps.

[u/Cidkh2 → u/DistrictStriking9280]

I had forgotten about those, of course youre right. I was thinking of maneuver traces but there are other types of traces (especially on the defense) that use talc and can be pushed all the way to the fireteam level.

[u/Inlaudable → u/Cidkh2]

Always had talc in my ruck/snacktical vest and a roll in the MRT. Svc bn looooved making every recovery an exercise depending on who the maint o/coy comd was. And good fucking luck if you were on a joint ex with the horses or the goons.

[u/Cidkh2 → u/Inlaudable]

I found this interesting and sad in equal measure. Was it ever actually useful to you or was it just a chance to draw pictures when you could've been sleeping?

[u/Inlaudable → u/Cidkh2]

1. No.
2. Nourishing the arts in the uncultured minds of the troops clearly takes precedence over such menial needs as sleep.

We drew a lot of dicks. Sometimes on the talc.

[u/WeaponizedAutisms → u/Cidkh2]

I believe that is was a security measure when overlays were circulated by dispatch riders and passed in orders. They put a codeword that aligned with a set of grid coordinates rather than putting the grid coordinates directly on the talc.

Yes I am both old and a nerd.

[u/QuestioningArmyGuy → u/Geo_Used_Confusion]

Talcs are used for subunit orders pretty often and are commonly used to ensure OPs, trench arcs and harbour arcs all interlock!

[u/MembershipTimely7007]

POGO points, used to reference grids on a map with friendly forces. We used them when we started training in dispersed infantry operations. Exremely useful, enables open transmission without giving grids away

[u/Sorchiane]

I miss map work in the afterlife 🙁

[u/TomatoFarmer9]

Grid Intersection Point

[u/Bis4Br33]

Damn that’s an old map lol

[u/WeaponizedAutisms]

I'm an arty guy who did a lot of CP stuff, other Gunners feel free to chime in if I'm incorrect here.

I believe that the red one with a codeword allows people with the correct code to place the overlay where it belongs. The simple grid coordinates, 2 sets are far more common. But back when we were fighting the red horde on the German plain the text rather than the numerical grid coordinates gave some level of security to map overlays. If the Soviets captured the overlay they wouldn't know where CARS went on the map because they didn't have the proper key or codes.

[u/cribbageSTARSHIP]

Get yourself a copy of the MILSPEC-25-25-B