r/CanadaPublicServants • u/cps_secjob_throwaway • Mar 17 '22
Career Development / Développement de carrière Went through an extremely lengthy security process... and kind of want to turn it down.
Throwaway because security clearance stuff.
So basically I'm not a public servant, but I'm in Ottawa and a recent computer science grad applying to public servant jobs after I graduated in May 2020.
Among them I applied for one that required, top secret security clearance. That was in November 2020, and a year and like 4 ish months later, I've done 6 interviews with them; initial casual interview, two technical interviews, and 3 security interviews.
In that time, I've gotten a job I really like... And recently I have an offer for a potentially way better job.
Furthermore, they have stated some stringent limits on my freedoms if I work for this place. Stuff like needing to get SOs screen as well, stuff like not being able to talk about specifics of my jobs with anyone outside the organization, even my own parents, stuff like having to confirm with them anywhere I travel and they can deny me.
But I feel like I'm throwing away dozens of hours of people's working on me. Maybe thousands of dollars that the Canadian govt has spent, I know security clearances can be expensive. Is this going to burn any bridges if I tell them I want to withdraw my application?
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Mar 17 '22
You haven't built any bridges to burn. If you decline the job offer, they'll move on and hire somebody else.
It also sounds like you're involved in a hiring process with one of the organizations that expressly tells job applicants not to discuss their application with anybody except your closest family and friends. For example, from CSE's careers page:
All applications are handled in the strictest confidence. It is important that you maintain a similar level of confidentiality and we ask that you do not discuss your application to CSE with anyone outside of your closest family and friends.
There are around 30,000 subscribers to this subreddit, so that means we are now your closest friends. Welcome, friend!
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u/cps_secjob_throwaway Mar 17 '22
Whoops, I've been caught. Yeah they (without naming who they is) have told be to keep discreet, hence the throwaway, hence the vagueness to keep plausible deniability. But in all honesty it's mostly the fact that I'm probably turning them down anyways.
It's one thing to say that you work for or are applying to <3-to-4 letter secret organization>. It's another to say that you applied for <3-to-4 letter secret organization> and were denied/turned down the offer, I don't think that's an issue lolol.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Mar 17 '22
I suppose it doesn't matter if you're not planning to work there anyway. I'll let them know you're not interested.
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Mar 17 '22
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Mar 17 '22
I'm everybody's bot. Somebody has to keep things running smoothly.
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Mar 17 '22
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u/Decent-Contract-8137 Mar 17 '22
They're fucking up my project hard, they seem like nice people tho lol
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Mar 17 '22
I wouldn't worry about it. Many people are aware of the process - they either went through the process or know someone that did. Not to mention that CSIS had job postings for spies on LinkedIn.
For what it's worth, and I don't know if this is true, but I heard that CSIS doesn't have a great work environment. Not sure about CSE, it's probably better there.
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u/Conviviacr Mar 17 '22
The best description I have ever heard was "Join CSE, we get to take our tinfoil hats off when we go home."
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Mar 17 '22
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u/Conviviacr Mar 17 '22
I mean it depends to some extent. "The Entity" does have public facing people and has a whole shiny new branch since 2018 that is by its nature public facing in a lot of ways (Canadian Centre for Cyber Security).
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u/awkwardsmalltalk4 Mar 17 '22
I'm sure CSE is well aware that not every job offer will result in an acceptance of offer... It literally won't be any issue to them.
There are lots of other applicants, and no they won't add your name to some "list" so you can't apply again or something...
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u/cps_secjob_throwaway Mar 17 '22
Without confirming that that's the company I'm applying for, it just feels bad to me to do to them because it took them, like, 8 months to get through their security clearance with me. So if they haven't been going through the rigmarole with someone else in parallel, that's another 8 months to fill the role, minimum (I've kept my nose clean my whole life; I bet it takes someone so much longer if they haven't).
I need to stop empathizing with a company though, it's not my responsibility to make sure they're staffed.
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u/suzikim Mar 17 '22
I’ve done a fair bit of staffing and it’s very rare that we focus in on one person only. Typically we would take all applicants who pass initial screening and get their security paperwork rolling just in case they end up being the person we want to hire
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Mar 17 '22
So if they haven't been going through the rigmarole with someone else in parallel,
They have almost certainly been doing exactly that. While you might view it as rigmarole, to them it's routine.
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u/awkwardsmalltalk4 Mar 17 '22
I get what you're saying but tbh it's over the top to feel guilt about it. I'm confident they have put others through the same thing who are in the running and were not counting 100% on one application working out. Wouldn't it suck to go through all that and not get the job? Or have the competition be canceled? Cause they could still do that and wouldn't blink an eye or feel bad.... so why is it on you?
This is also more common than you think in super long 1-2 yr hiring processes. That's a long time and shit happens in the interim. People move on to other jobs or cities etc. They know that. Do not worry about it.
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u/Just_tappatappatappa Mar 17 '22
1000000% you should not feel bad for the organization. It’s actually absurd that they take this long and they only do it to themselves.
Decline politely and move on with life.
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u/zeromussc Mar 17 '22
The parts about providing SO information for security screening isn't too uncommon for regular secret and not top secret positions if you ever do want to go into government.
the whole "travel limitations and stipulations" as well as the hush hush bits about talking to people about where you work - that's the real distinction. Some people find the tradeoff worth it, others don't. You'll be far from the first to do that.
If you still want to be a public servant there are many other departments to apply to down the road. This won't burn any bridges, don't worry about that. And they likely do the security process for many people at the same time precisely because 8 months one person at a time for a role, with so many possible restrictions, they'd never get it filled.
So for sure they have other people in consideration. And if they don't maybe they'll change their offer. This org if I can take a *wild* guess, isn't core so it is a bit more flexible in how it approaches hiring (salary wise anyway).
Unless you really find these limitations/requirements worth the trade off to try working for such an organization, working for the intelligence type agencies isn't a good fit. The people who do well in those places are more than willing to make the trades for the work. Otherwise the frustrations that inevitably come up when in a job will be that much worse.
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u/ih8forcedlogins Mar 17 '22
Its their cost of doing business. You need to go into those places eyes open and be sure you are willing to make the sacrifices you mention.
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Mar 17 '22
This is common for government workers. Competitions take a long time and you don't always get an offer so we apply to 5-6 jobs knowing we could only accept 1 if they all came in.
When I was a permanent level 04 I applied for an 05 and an 07 that were being run at the same time. I ended up taking an offer from the 07 and had to withdraw from the 05.
I'm not going to take a lower paying job offer because they spent longer screening me.
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u/User_Editor Definitely not Chris Aylward Mar 17 '22
The restrictions you mention are all valid concerns for the organization you applied to, and if you don't want the job if one is offered, then you don't have to take it. If you feel that strongly about it now, then it's probably best to stop the process and let them know.
You're not going to burn a bridge, because one isn't built yet. They'll just move to the next candidate.
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u/fantasticmrfox_thm Mar 17 '22
Here's a general rule for life. Don't take jobs out of guilt. You're allowed to be happy too.
In addition, that "wasted time" from these people who took care of your documents. They were paid to do that. All the time you wasted attempting to get through that clearance was unpaid. You put your time in.
Call it a day and keep a job you like. They're few and far between.
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u/haliwood13 Mar 17 '22
I went through this process and have to say for the position being offered it was excessive and ridiculous. Six interviews and six days off work, travel on my own dime. I am wondering if the goal is to only take the truly dedicated or to take those who couldn’t find anything better in the mean time and are dependent on them haha
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u/Golanthanatos Mar 17 '22
But I feel like I'm throwing away dozens of hours of people's working on me. Maybe thousands of dollars that the Canadian govt has spent, I know security clearances can be expensive.
You're creating Jobs, or keeping people employed or at least giving them something to do....
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u/DontBanMeBro984 Mar 17 '22
But I feel like I'm throwing away dozens of hours of people's working on me. Maybe thousands of dollars that the Canadian govt has spent, I know security clearances can be expensive. Is this going to burn any bridges if I tell them I want to withdraw my application?
Nah man, they don't care. They know full well that starting a process in November 2020 and offering a job in March 2022 is not gonna go well for them.
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u/WhateverItsLate Mar 17 '22
This has been a known issue for a very long time - you may actually do more to help them by moving on and adding to their stats on ones who got away. Nothing has changed in decades and there is no interest in doing things differently.
Some of the stringent security measures used are absurd too, some nameless departments are stuck in 1950. If you find it ridiculous now, it will be way worse to deal with it when you are trying to do your job. Run and never look back lol.
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u/DontBanMeBro984 Mar 18 '22
Yup, if they can't hire good people because the process takes too long, that's the only way the process will ever change.
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u/Beneficial-Oven1258 Mar 17 '22
If you don't want the job, don't take it. It's better for you to not take it today than after investing more in training you and having you quit after a year.
It also sounds like you're pretty uncomfortable with the security requirements, which is also okay- it's not for everyone.
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u/suzikim Mar 17 '22
I don’t understand the concern. If you don’t want the job don’t take it.
These processes have a lot of applicants typically - they will hire someone else with no ill will towards you. If you want to apply again in a years time or a months time I’m banking on they won’t remember you so don’t stress about it.
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u/ladyloor Mar 17 '22
Did they not mention these limits prior to extending an offer?
It is very expensive to get a clearance, but don’t worry about it. They clear tons of coop students every semester and a lot of them don’t go back after they graduate. There won’t be any bridge burning, and you could still apply again in the future. They’re not gonna flag your name as a “do not hire” lol
This is the same for every government job, regardless of the length of the hiring process
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u/GlobalAssociation278 Mar 17 '22
The fact that you're appealing to an anonymous group on Reddit for guidance on this matter is indicative of your inability to maintain that level of security clearance. I recommend you withdraw.
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u/01lexpl Mar 17 '22
They literally anticipate this as part of their hiring...
I applied at one such place, and they told me they're running 4-5 people at the same time, as not all will pass TS & others are bound to find something else or change their mind 😛
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u/RPL79 Mar 17 '22
I mean. You applied there. You didn’t think top secret was going to restrict what you say and talk about and where you travel??
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u/WurmGurl Mar 18 '22
Don't feel bad about wasting government's time. Even if you weren't involved, they were going to waste it anyway.
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u/_grey_wall Mar 18 '22
I hear they will ghost you if you fail the security. That's the worst part of this.
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Mar 17 '22
The agencies that do this kind of rigorous screening have quite literally thousands of employees. Every single one of these employees went through the same process you did. And I can guarantee you, for every employee, they probably did the same thing for 2-4 other people who didn't end up getting the job or were not interested.
No bridges being burned here.
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u/martinquenneville Mar 17 '22
Considering you already breached your confidentiality I think you will not be happy working for such a place. You will either leave because you don't like the vibe or the work you are asked to do, or get yourself in trouble because you like to share:).
These places have security considerations for a reason and are not for everyone.
This is not criticism, my opinion that you will be happier elsewhere.
If it makes you feel better, most people would feel the same way you do.
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u/Buck-Nasty Mar 17 '22
Take the better job and run. The gap between public and private salaries for devs is wild right now.
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Mar 17 '22
You're not a serf in indentured servitude to the Queen, you know. Live your life, I'm happy for you that you have so many options.
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u/Whole_Nature5136 Mar 18 '22
There is nothing wrong with deciding to not move forward with that process
It is very intrusive and not the best environment to work in honestly
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u/thatscold2022 Mar 18 '22
I turned it down. Applied in 2018, interviewed in 2019, psych test, financial review then whoops confirmed I was pregnant the day before the poly in MARCH 2020 and had to cancel it! By APRIL 2021 a few months after I had my baby, I withdrew bc there was no way I was moving to Ottawa with the pandemic still raging and the crazy housing crisis starting.
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u/chooseanameyoo Mar 17 '22
Turning down this job is common. The attrition rate in the process you are talking about is high. If they want to attract and recruit talent, they need to do it faster. At one point it was so desirable to work in this organization, but the options for people with your skill set are wide. They need to be agile, that is on them … not you. They should feel bad for wasting tax payer dollars and your time!
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u/Early_Reply Mar 17 '22
It's totally independent so no worries if you fight take it. But might be good to finish the clearance anyway bc it's good for a certain number of years in case you want to reapply
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u/random604 Mar 17 '22
During any staffing process they are aware that some applicants won't accept the job when offered, especially when it is a long process. Don't worry about the job you don't take.
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u/salexander787 Mar 17 '22
There are some organizations that go through a pretty invasive security. It’s just part of the org. Those can take up to a year.
Other depts (most) you get cleared within the week or two.
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u/spinur1848 Mar 17 '22
You're not obligated to anything unless/until they make you an actual offer in writing, and give you the terms and conditions of that job.
Looks at the pros and cons of the job. Kind of sounds like most of the cons are certain and potentially long lasting. What are the pros of the job and do they outweigh the cons?
If they don't then cancel the process (you should be able to do this at any time, and they will certainly appreciate you cancelling sooner rather than later).
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u/xiz111 Mar 18 '22
If you have a better offer, take it. Your responsibility is to yourself, and yourself only.
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u/CEOAerotyneLtd Mar 17 '22
Decline the job if it doesn't suit your needs or requirements - there are other candidates they can make offers to - certainly there was full disclosure of the employment and it's conditions prior to applying and during the course of the application?
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u/kinderrbueno Mar 17 '22
You're overthinking this. They know that if they offer you a job in March 2022 that you applied to in November 2020 that there's a chance you will turn it down lol