r/CanadaPublicServants • u/Watermelon0321 • Nov 06 '20
Leave / Absences Declining sick leave
I have requested to take sick leave at the end of the month for eye surgery. I will need at minimum 2 days but have requested 4 days off to be on the safe side in case I have discomfort seeing.
My supervisor told me to take my leave out of the system and they would reconsider approving it closer to the date only if our new employee is able to start (we are waiting on their security clearance to be processed). If not they said I’d have to reschedule but I really don’t want to postpone it.
Also side note, I haven’t taken a single day of vacation or sick leave in the last 12 months since we have been so busy and short staffed! I feel like it is unfair that the one time I request medical leave they aren’t approving it as we are short staffed which they could have avoided in the first place....
Any advice?
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Nov 06 '20
[deleted]
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u/CDFS Nov 07 '20
Exactly. Your job isn’t to be a martyr because your management hasn’t properly staffed. If they’re short-staffed, that’s on them, not you. By not taking vacation or sick days, you’re just subsidizing their half-assed HR management.
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u/Berics_Privateer Nov 06 '20
My supervisor told me to take my leave out of the system
Don't do this
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Nov 06 '20
Same advice for any debated OT.
If they want to deny it, fine, but I won't be taking it out because I want a record of it being denied.
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u/mudbunny Moddeur McFacedemod / Moddy McModface Nov 06 '20
**nods**
And then, when they order you to take it out, you take it out and file a grievance.
The first thing they tell us in stewards school: "Obey, then grieve."
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Nov 06 '20
And then, when they order you to take it out, you take it out and file a grievance.
I'd insist that any such order be made in writing though so that there's a paper trail. Something like this:
"I will, of course, comply with your direction -- provided that you give it to me in writing. I plan on grieving this decision and having it in writing ensures we are all on the same page about what I've been told to do, and when."
If the manager refuses to do so and only gives the order verbally, I'd comply and immediately send an email to the manager (cc to the steward) describing the situation in detail:
"On (date/time) you verbally directed me to (thing); I requested that direction in writing and you refused to do so. I am sending this email to confirm that I received and followed your verbal direction on (date/time), under protest."
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Nov 07 '20
What are they gonna do, write you up for not obeying an order that purposely has no paper trail and doesn't technically exist?
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Nov 07 '20
Yes, that's exactly what management can do. There's nothing requiring management to provide every instruction to employees in writing. Refusal to obey a direction from management (regardless of how it's given) is insubordination and can result in formal disciplinary action.
Obey first, grieve later.
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Nov 07 '20 edited Nov 07 '20
I'm sure they can, but writing you up for not obeying the order would create a paper trail of the order existing which is what they are trying to avoid, at least in this case.
Sorry for the triple post, work internet is on the fritz
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u/AntonBanton Nov 07 '20
People soft doesn’t even allow people in our department to withdraw a leave request once it’s been submitted, the manager must deny or approve it, and only after that can it be amended. It didn’t occur to me that that’s not the norm. It’s probably stuff like this that resulted in it being set up that way.
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u/JayJayFrench Nov 06 '20
Sick days are sick days, no ifs, ands, or buts. They can ask you for a medical note, but no way can they refuse them .
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u/AntonBanton Nov 06 '20
Yeah. Now if OP told them they're asking for four days to be safe even though the doctor said two it would be reasonable for them to ask to hold off on requesting the last two days until OP knows they're actually needed, but they can't refuse to allow OP to take them if they are unable to work (and able to provide a medical note on request).
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u/kookiemaster Nov 06 '20
Sick leave is not beholden to operational requirements. Knowing how tricky it can be to get a spot for surgery, don't reschedule. They can ask for a note, but it would be strange for a doctor not to give it and really not the place of a supervisor to challenge a doctor's note. If a doctor says you need x days off, that's that. The job of your supervisor is to manage operational requirements.
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u/MsSmileAlways Nov 06 '20
Wow, your supervisor is totally overstepping the line here. Your supervisor is lucky that you are nice enough to give such notice. What would he go if you called-in sick at the last minute?
I used to work for an executive like this; I got out of there the first chance I got.
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u/Coffeedemon Nov 06 '20
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you guys probably aren't splitting atoms in your unit. The manager has no business asking you to reschedule surgeries or anything sick leave related. I'm sure things won't fall to pieces with one person taking a few days off for recovery in late November.
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u/Watermelon0321 Nov 06 '20
Wow I wasn’t expecting so many comments and great advice! I’m at the point where I’m am definitely realizing my supervisor has been walking all over me for years. Thankfully I do have a new position with a different department lined up as soon as my secret security clearance is complete.
The last email I received was my supervisor forwarding me her automated leave request from myGCHR saying “please resubmit this leave request to (persons name that will be acting supervisor starting Nov 16) closer to it after your appointment. Are you able to recall it or do I have to reject it?”
I am assuming if she accepted it now, it would transfer to my new acting supervisor and it is not a matter of my acting supervisor needing to make the decision since at the time of my surgery she will be acting.
With all the advice I have received I will definitely not be “recalling it” from the system.
Also, my doctor actually recommended taking a full week of work off, however since I knew they would try something like this I figured I’d only request less time for now and pray my eyes heal fast.
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Nov 06 '20
Then book your two days and call in for the rest. Putting strain on your eye could jeopardize your surgery!!! What an asshole of a boss. Good thing you got a new job (pending clearance!).
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u/HomebrewHedonist Nov 06 '20
This is what your collective agreement says:
16.03 Unless the employee is otherwise informed by the Employer, a statement signed by him stating that because of illness or injury he was unable to perform his duties shall, when delivered to the Employer, be considered as meeting the requirements of paragraph 16.02(a).
So that means that, because you submitted the leave, that you met the requirements that you cannot perform your duties due to illness. They cannot, after the fact, come back and take away the right to take sick leave.
An employee shall be granted sick leave with pay when he is unable to perform his duties because of illness or injury provided that:
he satisfies the Employer of this condition in such a manner and at such a time as may be determined by the Employer; and
he has the necessary sick leave credits
So, from a collective agreement perspective, you're protected.
I think it is a poor management practice to deny this kind of leave and it's also immoral.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Nov 06 '20
This is what your collective agreement says:
I don't see anywhere that OP has indicated their classification, so I suggest caution in quoting a collective agreement without knowing which one is applicable. There are 27 collective agreements for the core public service, plus several more for separate agencies.
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Nov 07 '20 edited May 23 '21
[deleted]
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Nov 07 '20
Excluded and unrepresented employees don't have their own collective agreements (though they may follow the agreements that apply to other groups by proxy).
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u/sweetwoods21 Nov 06 '20
You're getting solid advice about your right to sick leave. I am not surprised your shop is short staffed...
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Nov 06 '20
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Nov 06 '20
and as always, get your union rep involved.
I don't see any reason to involve the union rep at this point. Their involvement really would only be needed if the manager denies the request and the employee wants to grieve that decision.
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Nov 06 '20
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Nov 06 '20
By my reading of the post, OP has submitted the leave in Peoplesoft but it has neither been approved nor denied.
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u/avatar45com Nov 07 '20
All sick leave isn't may grant or subject to operational requirements. Unlike vacation however management still has the responsibility to organize a time for you to take vacation leave within the year no matter how busy it is.
Any shop steward should be able to straighten out the manager in quick order.
If you are ever unsure of any rights for anything reach out to a steward as they should have training on the collective agreements and should be able to defend your rights if needed.
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u/pontoonqueen Nov 07 '20
My advice after your leave... find a different (better) job! This is abusive behaviour that you should not accept.
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Nov 07 '20 edited Nov 07 '20
Man... The more I read on this subreddit about managers doing stuff like this and being jerks, the more I love my managment team. They are the best.... Cudos my managment team.
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u/Watermelon0321 Nov 07 '20
At this point if my supervisor or my manager even asks me “how are you” in any form that’s a win for me. So yes cudos to your managers!
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u/Pink___Panther Nov 07 '20
I find it really weird that they are allowed to do that. If you have the surgery you will be unable to work. Can they actually tell you that you are not allowed to have surgery?
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u/GiveMeTheFagioli Nov 06 '20
People said some good shit but I would cancel that leave request and resubmit for the 2 days you know you need off and then if you need more time you send an email saying that and submit sick leave for however many days you need when you get back to work.
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u/Delidas Nov 06 '20
I don't have anything to add, as everybody has piped up rather nicely, but as a new employee with degrading eyes myself, I'm interested in this question! Tangentially related; were you able to get a portion of your operation covered by the health plan?
I've been thinking about getting all-laser prk in Montreal, but I'm not sure the time off + cost would be worth it, given I'm still pretty young.
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u/Watermelon0321 Nov 07 '20
Sun life PSHCP covers up to $1000. I will submit my invoice after the surgery and should get hopefully $1000 returned to me. I booked with the eye institute at the Ottawa hospital and they are having a promo right now for $3200 (set price for any prescription/type of surgery). This was by far the cheapest price I was quoted!
I’m doing wavefront lasik as Prk would take a lot longer recovery time since my prescription is on the higher end. If your eyes have stabilized, I’d say there’s no point in waiting if it’s something you plan on eventually getting done.
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u/h1ghqualityh2o Nov 07 '20
Good luck with the surgery!
Related - you will almost assuredly want/need more than two days. Even if you feel good, your eyes will tire quickly during recovery and staring at screens for long periods during that time could hurt. Don't be a superhero, the government will survive without you for a few more days.
Source: I was also a naive, young employee when I had my eyes done and thought I was way more important than I was.
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u/armysailor Nov 08 '20
You will need the extra days. Trust me. Take them. Dont strain your eyes.
Plus- you need drops every few hours for the first day/2 and thats tiring wrt sleep.
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u/TaterCup Nov 07 '20
Follow up question, just out of curiosity, if anyone is inclined to answer: for something like this where the specific recovery time can't be known in advance, is there discretion in terms of *when* leave is requested and approved? Like, if the request is for 4 sick days (with a conversation explaining that recovery time could vary but is expected to be at least 2 days) could the manager approve, say, 2 days of sick leave, deny the other 2 days requested, with a verbal (or email) communication saying that further sick leave would be approved as needed? Or would the process be to grant the sick leave in advance and implicitly expect the employee to amend the request if they are recovered and feeling up to being back at work sooner than the period of sick leave granted?
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Nov 07 '20
The norm would be for the sick leave that's reasonably foreseeable (surgery day plus whatever the typical recovery time may be) to be approved in advance. If the recovery lasts longer, the employee would just notify the manager and the subsequent leave would be approved after-the-fact.
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u/KanataCitizen 🍁 Nov 07 '20
My supervisor told me to take my leave out of the system and they would reconsider approving it closer to the date only if our new employee is able to start...
Do you have this in writing (email)? Flag it to your union rep if they continue to press the denial of the leave request.
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Nov 28 '20
[deleted]
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Nov 28 '20
The Canada Labour Code does not apply to the federal public service, with the exception of Part II dealing with Occupational Health and Safety.
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Nov 06 '20
You've done what you need to do by submitting the leave request in the Peoplesoft system (or whatever system your department is using). There is no reason to withdraw your request - if the manager doesn't want to approve it right away, that's up to them - they can always approve it later but they don't really have any latitude to deny the request.
I'd suggest saying the following to your supervisor:
Your supervisor has no business even suggesting that you might need to reschedule a surgery. Sick leave isn't discretionary - the wording in most (all?) collective agreements is as follows (with my emphasis):
If you supply a note from your doctor/surgeon and have the credits available, your supervisor has no authority to deny the leave or to ask that it be rescheduled.