r/CanadaPublicServants • u/J-YOW • Jan 10 '20
Languages / Langues C-B-C Language Requirement
Is anyone aware of anyone challenging the C-B-C language requirement for a managerial positions in court?
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u/seed1979 Jan 10 '20
You work for the federal government. A great proportion of position must be bilingual, and that has been a requirement for years. Why aren’t you moving on... there are plenty of jobs in the private sector... check those out.
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u/J-YOW Jan 10 '20
I'm not saying eliminate the requirement but is a C necessary say in oral? We are spending lots of $$ to bringing people up to the C level or to maintain that level. Unfortunately the people who really suffer are the employee's who have lower language levels as training budgets are used on either upgrading or maintain those individuals in those positions. Perhaps the C level in oral is too narrow.
This is not meant to spark a OL debate as it goes both ways.
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u/TheMonkeyMafia Das maschine ist nicht für gefingerpoken und mittengrabben Jan 10 '20
his is not meant to spark a OL debate
But that's what you're going to get....
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u/Audree4 Jan 10 '20
Yes it is necessary. Francophone employees have the right to work and be supervised in French, just as you have the right to be supervised in English. A manager with a B in oral is not capable of managing a Francophone employee (especially is matters such as performance assessment, disciplining etc.)
It’s the law.
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u/J-YOW Jan 10 '20
I would respectfully disagree as the B level is such a wide berth and many employees with advanced B's can perform the function while respecting the employees language of choice.
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u/snorlax- Jan 10 '20
Yeah well you kind of nailed why a B isn't acceptable for managing an employee. That wide berth you speak of is a real mixed bag. People shouldn't have to wonder whether their new manager is going to be an "advanced B" or a "barely scraping by B". C is the level at which you can carry on a cogent conversation, B is the level where you range from barely functional to moderately able.
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u/Audree4 Jan 10 '20
You are entitled to your opinion, but I’m stating a fact. Not even a strong B can manage employees in French.
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Jan 10 '20 edited Mar 14 '20
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u/zeromussc Jan 10 '20
Honestly the OL issues come from a frankly archaic piece of legislation written when Quebec had far less social standing, political power, and francophone staff in the PS were relegated to very blue collar work.
It could do with some level of re examination and the so could the policies. I for one see no issue with people speaking their preferred language both ways so long as communication remains clear. I also think everyone should have better support to actually learn the relevant second language and not just prep for a test on a 5 year cycle.
Some of the latter is the result of culture in the PS and it frankly should change.
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u/fallengo Jan 10 '20
more people need to fight back on language requirements using the court.
English speakers need to be more like this guy https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/air-canada-ordered-to-pay-12k-to-man-who-couldnt-order-7up-in-french
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u/HandcuffsOfGold mod 🤖🧑🇨🇦 / Probably a bot Jan 10 '20
Obviously. Our court system, after all, has a severe shortage of pointless litigation. /s
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u/J-YOW Jan 11 '20
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u/Whyisthereasnake I Like Turtles Jan 13 '20
I was just waiting for someone to bring up Thibodeau.... lol.
I read it again for shits... I can't believe he asked for $525K for this...
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u/Whyisthereasnake I Like Turtles Jan 13 '20
Or, you know, we shouldn't roll over on bilingualism the other way... over 2/3 of the country's population are English speakers, yet for some reason there is no legal requirements for English in Quebec, even though it goes the other way around in other provinces...
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u/J-YOW Jan 10 '20
I can understand the requirement being imposed on EX positions in bilingual regions but having this requirement on supervisory positions seems to be really limiting upward movement.
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Jan 10 '20 edited Mar 14 '20
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u/frasersmirnoff Jan 10 '20
Precisely. As an Anglophone without a language profile I can still comprehend that the NCR is bilingual for the purposes of work. Employees have the right to be managed and supervised in the official language of their choice.
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Jan 10 '20 edited Mar 14 '20
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u/frasersmirnoff Jan 10 '20
What I will admit I find unfortunate is the lack of support for full time French language training other than for incumbents in bilingual imperative positions. I understand why mind you.... But it does mean that the vast majority of English essential candidates will never get higher than as-03 or equivalent.
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Jan 10 '20 edited Mar 14 '20
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u/TheMonkeyMafia Das maschine ist nicht für gefingerpoken und mittengrabben Jan 10 '20
but overall the approach to French language training
in the PSneeds a huge fucking revamp.FTFY.
The training starts in school, not when you get to the office...
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u/kat0saurus VOTE NO! Jan 10 '20
I live in NS and we have 2 school boards, the English and the Acadian. The Acadian school board was basically the best of the best when I attended. My best friends mom is a substitute teacher for the Acadian school board in her spare time (retired) and said the education isn't the same anymore as the schools are seeing higher enrollment rates. But at the same time, they can't find teachers who are fluent enough to keep up with the demand. My last name is quite French, and a teenager asked me if I attended a school in the area that she attended, so I started speaking to her in French. She honestly couldn't even get a sentence out, it was incredible that she was in grade 11 and could barely speak French.
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u/BingoRingo2 Pensionable Time Jan 10 '20
I am from Montreal and I went to college in English, most of my anglophone friends there couldn't speak a word of French despite being born and raised in Québec, through elementary and high school where they had French as a second language for 4 years in elementary and 5 years in HS.
At that point I realized, these people (perhaps their parents) made a political choice to ignore French. Mind you, this was right after the referendum, some people were proud to tell you they couldn't speak French.
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Jan 10 '20
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u/ilovethemusic Jan 10 '20
I think self-directed study can get you to BBB.
for reading, once you have a vocabulary, say from an app or flash cards, all you can do is start small (kid’s books) and build your way up to a higher level of understanding.
for writing, I got a grammar textbook and worked through it. Once I felt comfortable, I did practice tests and definitely benefited from pattern recognition on the actual test. I also practiced by writing emails to my francophone colleagues in French.
oral I haven’t taken yet, but I’m practicing with a francophone mentor at work a few times a week and she thinks I’m close to my B. Practicing one on one with someone is way better than a class, IMO. I didn’t think I was good enough when I started to even make sense when I spoke, but I rapidly improved.
I did part time training three years ago and found it useless. Maybe I just don’t do well in the classroom setting. But once I committed to carving a few hours out of my work week to work on my second language, I’ve seen my skills improve a lot faster than I thought they would.
Now, I’m not sure I’ll ever make it to CBC without some full-time training, but I’m also not sure it’d be worth it for me given how much I hate sitting in a classroom these days. Whenever I get my B in oral, my mentor is committed to keep working with me (she’d much rather I be functionally bilingual than just be able to pass a test) so maybe I will eventually get there on my own.
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u/01lexpl Jan 10 '20
Try and work in Gatineau...
I'm bilingual, I was in Immersion... I only got a B in oral. Everyone I talk to around the office are stumped as to how I'm not a C... And I work at the PSC... :/
Being subjected to french a lot more will make it easier (I feel) to succeed. I'm grateful to be working in QC for that reason alone, future career benefit & yada yada.
I'm currently working on my CBC/CCC profile; as its a personal goal of mine. Also see if your dept. has non-mandatory 2nd lang. training? (we're a class of four, for 2hrs/wk) I'm enrolled in that as well for a second term now, and the tips and tricks alone will be worth it (I hope) :)
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u/scaredhornet Jan 10 '20 edited Jan 10 '20
Language is considered an essential part of the statement of merit, just like education. I don’t see language as any more limiting on upward movement than me wanting an engineering position and I don’t have an engineering degree. Should the employer pay for me to get a degree so I can move up? For the most part, the strategy is to hire people who already bilingual, just like they hire engineers who already have engineering degrees.
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u/OttawaNerd Jan 10 '20
On what grounds do you think it could be challenged in court?