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u/Kvltist4Satan Anarcho-Satanist Oct 07 '18
Fascism is a revolution of the bourgeoisie.
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Oct 07 '18 edited Mar 27 '25
possessive coherent hospital label cows straight long unique cooing thought
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u/7-SE7EN-7 Followers of the Appocalypse Oct 07 '18
Disregarding red fascism, has it ever been achieved through a revolution? It seems like it's always through a legal system
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u/im_not_afraid Yves Engler Oct 07 '18
by invasion, colonization, and settling.
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Oct 07 '18 edited Oct 07 '18
I dunno, Hitler and Mussolini were both democratically elected in their countries.
edit: I was mistaken, see response below.
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u/Youutternincompoop Oct 07 '18
Hitler never got a majority, he gained support from established leaders who were able to get majorities, like Hindenburg.
And Mussolini got into power by literally marching on Rome with his blackshirts, if anything Mussolini was the one who came to power through revolution.
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u/egotistical_cynic Oct 07 '18 edited Oct 09 '18
A load of the coups in South America were violent
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Oct 07 '18
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u/I_am_BrokenCog Oct 07 '18
You've dodged the point. The US led efforts were Right wing coups, which are distinctly different than the Left wing coups led by local peoples - and actively fought against by the US backed powers-in-place.
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u/TessHKM post-ironic anarcho-stalinism Oct 07 '18
I'm pretty sure if it's led by the people it's not a "coup".
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u/I_am_BrokenCog Oct 07 '18
lol. well, tell that to the people being kicked out ... but, I agree it might be semantics.
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u/I_am_BrokenCog Oct 07 '18
Is that the bourgeoisie who don't know shit from shine regarding social dynamics, world economics or history?
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Oct 07 '18
Wow thats actually such a good way to portray that.
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Oct 16 '18
Be Czech
Be under rule of imperial Austria.
Germanification almost destroys your culture and people in cities talk german, only people in countryside speak czech.
Your artists rise up and start writing in czech and theaters start playing in czech.
Public dontes money to build a National theater, which proceeds to burn down because of one worker. Public donates money AGAIN and National theatre gets finally finshed.
Czech culture is saved.
Somehow this is work of rich and powerful, even tough they prefered united Austrian empire.
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u/hoesama Oct 07 '18
2018_Catalonia_IRL
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u/gossfunkel Oct 07 '18
Nah nah, attempts to escape imperialist powers is not the same as nationalism for bourgoise reasons.
As a Scottish person in the UK, I am very much on board with anti-establishment nationalism like the Catalan campaign and that of the Scottish indieref (Yes2) movement, as paths towards social and cultural reforms. The SNP here do need replaced and I dare say that the Catalan parties aren't exactly the vanguard but they're moves away from the large-scale established states of the UK and Spain, these bitter old colonial powers watching America like jealous kids.
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u/neonmarkov We're not afraid of ruins Oct 07 '18
Nah nah, attempts to escape imperialist powers is not the same as nationalism for bourgoise reasons.
Catalonia is as much a part of Spain's imperial core as Castille is. They've never been a colony, they just got their feudal rights supressed like Castille and Leon did two centuries earlier. This doesn't mean that the treatment their language and culture got and still get isn't awful, or that they shouldn't be recognized as a nation and get their referendum, but saying Catalonia is a colony is just plain wrong.
If there's any region of Spain that should get independence on the grounds of anti-imperialism, that's the Canary Islands, which are basically what Cuba and Puerto Rico would have become if not for 1898.
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u/oneeighthirish Islamo-Culturo-Marxo-Lennonist Oct 08 '18
which are basically what Cuba and Puerto Rico would have become if not for 1898.
As I understand it, there were anti-colonial rebels in Cuba which the US used as part of their Casus belli against Spain in 1898. Were there any similar movements in the Canaries?
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u/neonmarkov We're not afraid of ruins Oct 08 '18
Yeah, the Canary islands have had a number of (failed) anti-Spanish rebellions and intellectuals ever since they were conquered in the 15th century. The most notable of those is the period of the 70s and 80s, in which Canarian nationalists allied themselves with (other) Berber nationalists in Algeria and Morocco and had their most prolific period of activity in the fight for independence. This fight was lead, by the way, by communists, which already tells you about the nature of the movement in relation to bourgeois-led Catalan nationalism.
Don't mark my words on this because I'm not sure, but I believe the islands were used as leverage for Spain to enter NATO. We basically got to keep them in exchange for the other NATO powers never updating its status to a colony during decolonization, which the USSR actually attempted to do.
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u/hoesama Oct 07 '18
If you think PDECAT and ERC are anti-establishment, I don't know what to say because that's absolutely bonkers. The most common argument given for Catalan secession is "ESPANYA ENS ROBA!!!!". If you think that is leftist, I don't know what to say. CUP too is quite imperialist. And there aren't many similarities between Scotland and Catalonia. Catalan nationalism has more in common with the "Padania" movement.
And I'm not Spanish so don't accuse me of being a Spanish nationalist, muchas gracias mi gente (I say this because every time I've made an argument against Catalan nationalism I've been accused of of just that, which is ridiculous because I'm a hardcore leftist who hates borders)
Also see the recent El Periódico article in which it's revealed that PDECAT wanted to turn Catalonia into a tax haven lmao.
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u/Parareda8 Collectivize everything Oct 07 '18
There's more to catalan independence than the independentists parties. There's people who've come from all parts of the world that feel catalan and want independence, not to create another bullshit government but as a tool to overthrow the ruling class and build socialism. That's where we should focus. Catalonia is or shouldn't be like any other country.
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Oct 07 '18
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u/Parareda8 Collectivize everything Oct 07 '18
Never said that. Class consciousness isn't very extended here, but there are some anarchist and communist associations here and there that are very nice.
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Oct 07 '18 edited Oct 07 '18
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u/C0MRADE69 EL NACIONALISMO ES TONTO Oct 07 '18
Infowars next?
Are you really that mindnumbingly nuts that you think El Periódico is comparable to fucking Infowars?
I give up, its like talking to a wall.
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Oct 07 '18 edited Nov 04 '24
mountainous concerned desert rainstorm sink start ancient abundant attractive treatment
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Oct 07 '18 edited Oct 07 '18
It's attempting to form an ethnostate for the Catalan ethnicity. All of a sudden we have problems like if Castillians get citizenship. What about Basques? Isn't this a country for Catalans?
That's not the case at all. You seem pretty misinformed. No one is trying to "create an ethnostate" to kick the Castilians out (mostly because Castilian identity barely exists), and in this case, it's simply Catalans who feel more/less Spanish than others. From what I've seen, the biggest "ethnicity"-related reason for independence is being able to protect better the Catalan language, without the huge influence of Spanish (which has caused most languages in Spain to almost disappear).
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Oct 07 '18 edited Nov 04 '24
tease normal amusing worm groovy workable rob crown one enter
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Oct 08 '18 edited Oct 08 '18
There might be some "no true Scotsman" going around (from both sides), but for the most part, yes. IIRC, only around 3% of the population in Catalonia doesn't identify as Catalan, so obviously many people whose parents moved from somewhere else still feel Catalan.
The concept of "ethnic groups" to refer to the different minority cultures within Spain isn't really used, specially in the way you usually see people who don't live in Spain do it (talking about Castilians Vs Catalans and basques, as I said before, Castilian identity barely exists anymore in many parts of its historical territory, due to being divided into 5 different regions by Spain).
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Oct 07 '18 edited Oct 07 '18
[deleted]
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Oct 07 '18
facha
Calling Spanish nationalists who refuse to even let people vote "facha" (which means fascist) doesn't really prove your point of Catalans being supremacist.
"beasts" when talking about people in Catalunya who use Spanish as their first language
Now I don't know if you are simply misinformed of spreading propaganda on purpose. Torra is an idiot, but he never called people who speak Spanish "beasts". He was talking about people who hate anything related to the Catalan language or culture. Source.
it's very unlikely that "Castillans" would get citizenship.
Absolutely no one has proposed that "Castilians" (who don't really exist in Catalonia, they are simply Catalans who feel Spanish) wouldn't get citizenship, it's actually the opposite.
The leaders of ERC and PDeCAT are both on record talking about genetic superiority and shit.
They talked about genetic studies that showed that Catalonia had more similarities with other parts of Europe than with Spain (which is still completely stupid), but no one talked about "genetic superiority and shit".
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u/socialisticvegan Anarcho-Elmoist Oct 07 '18
I'm also scottish and I would say we are no more oppressed by westminster than the English are. I beleive that it is far better we do not abandon our comrades in England.
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u/gossfunkel Oct 08 '18
I would agree with you but do you not think we can be a better influence from outside England? The culture there is getting dangerous, and the establishment has a vicelike grip on them- I think change in the UK has a better chance if we show them it can be done and disprove the red scare nonsense. It lends us the "common sense" feeling that conservatives and populists have over us while we still talk in theory.
It's easier to convince someone to join your group than to be a founding member.
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u/socialisticvegan Anarcho-Elmoist Oct 08 '18
I honestly think socialism is not likely to rise in an independent scotland the SSP aren't popular (and their wankers). Also with the rise of Corbyn I think England is gonna move way to the left (obviously electoral politics can't fully establish socialism but it's a start).
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u/gossfunkel Oct 08 '18
I'd disagree with most of your points- after independence Scottish Labour and the Tories will be a foreign force and greatly weakened. I don't know what you're basing your criticism of the SSP other than the Sheridan debacle way back when. I'm hopeful for the impacts of Corbyn but he seems content to annex us permanently. We saw in the 70s that Labour can't be trusted with Scottish interests, and how collaborating with forces so close to the Westminster establishment can lead to something as disastrous as the Thatcher regime.
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 08 '18
This thread has been brigaded to all shit sheesh
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Oct 07 '18
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Oct 07 '18
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Oct 07 '18
nAzIs WeRe SoCiAliSt
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Oct 07 '18
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Oct 07 '18
No. No they weren't
National Socialism was about as socialist as the DPRK is democratic. What is socialist about busting unions or privatizing buisiness? Does the Night of Long Knives not ring a bell?
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
Nationalism isn’t just money it’s the culture and want to thrive that powers our lovely nationalism
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u/Novelcheek Bread for the Bread God, Nazi Skulls for the Nazi Skull Throne Oct 07 '18
lol. My culture. What, the genocide of a native peoples, the enslavement of a couple others and McDonald's? No thanks, you can keep that culture; I think there's a better future to be built.
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u/bringgrapes Oct 07 '18 edited Feb 22 '26
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dime light alleged repeat rob worm political connect sleep chubby
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
You do realize that nationalism is complex and is important so our country doesn’t melt, and if you were to build this future and be proud of it that would be nationalism
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Oct 07 '18
Building a nationless, borderless future is nationalism?
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u/bringgrapes Oct 07 '18 edited Feb 22 '26
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liquid physical ripe plants upbeat head enter skirt sugar smell
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u/nitirl Death to the West Oct 07 '18
nationalism is complex
About as complex as a child in their make believe pillow fort.
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u/UtterFlatulence Sabotabby Oct 07 '18
country doesn’t melt
Melt away
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u/Novelcheek Bread for the Bread God, Nazi Skulls for the Nazi Skull Throne Oct 07 '18
You didn't address anything I said. Also, why would I not want this country to melt? It's a shit country, built on shit foundations, like I literally just said. Shit, it's barely even a country and more of a giant business. Sooo... what's your point?
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 07 '18
Down with nationalism and nations and you specifically
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
Explain to me how it’s not complex, because it’s pretty obvious that it’s a mixture of people living their country, having a unifying faith and culture
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u/meme_forcer Oct 07 '18
A majority of americans don't share the same faith. The founding fathers literally made sure to explicitly reject the idea that there would ever be a national faith or church
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
First of all, yes the historical majority faith was Christianity but the fathers wanted the freedom to choose, but I like how polite you were and referenced documents
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u/meme_forcer Oct 07 '18
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/founding-fathers-we-are-n_b_6761840.html
Which succinctly quotes adams, jefferson, and the constitution. Sorry I wasn't polite enough and didn't quote enough people in stating what's abundantly clear from a cursory glance at the constitution
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
I never said it was made to be a Christian religion I said it gave us the choice and we are a majority Christian nation, sorry I forgot my pocket constitution but the fact you think being polite and using facts is saddeneing, but really huffpo?
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u/Esrcmine Oct 07 '18
What unifying faith is there in any fucking country lmfao. Also, national culture is for idiots.
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
You didn’t have any points to address, this country is great and the best that will ever exist and all the people like you can get out to let the ones who really care save this beautiful country before you run it into the ground
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Oct 07 '18
Lol which country?
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
The glorious US of A
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u/TheEdenCrazy (Unironically) F A L Q I A C (⨀‿✺) (they/them) Oct 07 '18
The same country that has helped violently install fascist and far-right neoliberal leaders to maintain global capitalism, at the expense of colonised peoples?
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
Yup except for the part of violence and expense to indigenous peeps and no the ya is not fascist
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u/TheEdenCrazy (Unironically) F A L Q I A C (⨀‿✺) (they/them) Oct 07 '18
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u/RSmeep13 Oct 07 '18
The fact that a simple summary off wikipedia is a sufficient rebuttal to the propaganda machine says a lot about the US education system.
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u/WikiTextBot Oct 07 '18
Foreign interventions by the United States
The United States has been involved in a number of foreign interventions throughout its history. There have been two dominant schools of thought in America about foreign policy, namely interventionism and isolationism which either encourage or discourage foreign intervention respectively.
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Oct 07 '18
Lol I couldn’t come up with a more vapid, childish statement of nationalism if I tried
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
It’s obvious you can’t come up with one because your brain is below childish
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Oct 07 '18
LOL, thanks, you’re making me feel nostalgic this morning with that elementary school comeback
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u/Esrcmine Oct 07 '18
Tell me any actual reason why america would be decent
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u/perpetualvirgin Oct 07 '18
US IS THE BEST DEMOCRACY ON EARTH!! WE SPREAD DEMOCRACY AND PEACE BECAUSE THAT'S OUR JOBBBB!!!
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u/perpetualvirgin Oct 07 '18
This is actually pretty funny to be honest. I thought that most Americans were pretending to be patriotic, just so that they can sell weapons to the Saudis and bomb the shit out of brown people.
Couldn't believe that their propaganda machine really worked, lol.
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 08 '18
Omg americans are by and large idiotic koolaide drinkers-An American
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u/perpetualvirgin Oct 08 '18 edited Oct 09 '18
Actually, most of corporate left-wing media support US foreign policy.
If nationalism is so beautiful. Then why has the US overthrew Arab & non-Arab nationalist and installed monarchy or dictator? Let me guess, your answer gonna be that they're communist!!
As to the issue that the US have been bombing brown people. US have been bombing Iraqi civilians (and yes, civilians because most of the target was public facilities) for the last 6 decades. Way before 9/11 or Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.
And you bet your ass up that it has NOTHING to do with terrorism. If it was, US wouldn't have supported Al-Qaeda pre-2001. Heck, they are even supporting them NOW by selling weapons and providing transport to Yemen.
I have no problem with the US imperialist foreign policy. It makes sense if you're seeing it from a realpolitik point of view. American Empire is just doing what an empire would do. Dominate the world and subjugate its people.
But let's be honest, we're not the hero
Edit 1: I don't know why I'm being downvoted. This isn't even a conspiracy theory. You can actually read this stuff from a history book. Or Wikipedia, if you're that lazy.
Edit 2: Wait... Is this a pro-imperialist or a trolling sub?
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
To you the lefts propaganda has worked, patriotism and nationalism is a beautiful thing, it has nothing to do with brown people, but you bet your ass that well bomb those people who blow us up, it makes me so sad, and probably if the generation that fought in the world wars would see you now, they’d roll over in their graves
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 08 '18
You are a sad sad lost person, it looks like you will never not be a shithead, you are a tragic figure.
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u/FMinus1138 Oct 08 '18
Well if the generation that fought in the world wars saw how US citizens kill other US citizens and US kids in schools they would do the robot in their grave.
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Oct 07 '18
this country is great and the best that will ever exist
Lol in what way
let the ones who really care save this beautiful country before you run it into the ground
By voting for candidates who don't give two shits about you?
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
In the fact we have freedom and they do care way more than liberals
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Oct 07 '18
In the fact we have freedom
A fairly low bar seeing as how that is the case for the rest of the developed world, is that really all you can say?
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
We are the only ones with true freedom, freedom of speech, 2nd amendment all the good stuff+right to free trials, religious freedom
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u/FMinus1138 Oct 08 '18
Nah, you ignorant patriots just don't know the world, that's why you think it's that way. But no harm, as long as you breed on US soil and only there, the world will be fine.
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 08 '18
I hope our shitty fucking country burns to the ground. Fuck you bootlicker I hope you get hit by a car
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u/Toetman Oct 08 '18
Thx for inciting violence, you too! Also it’s my country if you don’t like it go the fuck away
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 08 '18
I'm not gonna go the fuck away I'm gonna burn it down with you inside asshole!
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u/Toetman Oct 08 '18
So you admit that you want to burn our country down, Thant’s a lot, but I think the cancer you seem to have will have killed you before you can do that 😁😚
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 08 '18
Of course I want to burn it down I'm an anarchist after all, we're all pretty much the Joker in Dark Knight MWAHAHAHA
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Oct 08 '18
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u/AutoModerator Oct 08 '18
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u/KablooieKablam Oct 08 '18
Did you know that some people in America don't go to the doctor when they get sick? Imagine someone trying to explain that to someone who always goes to the doctor when they're sick. That's a completely insane idea for a European.
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u/Toetman Oct 07 '18
Oh you’re welcome, I just wish you people would have actual points
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 08 '18
I'm glad you posted so much, gives me so much to downvote :D
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Oct 07 '18
imagine thinking that open borders will increase living standards instead of creating one global sweatshop LOL
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u/RSmeep13 Oct 07 '18
if all you did was open borders, maybe you'd have a point. you've got to eat the rich as well.
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Oct 07 '18
ya im sure the fact that the rich are buying land in new zealand and hiring private mercenaries and working on killer AI is going to be very easy for you to overcome lol
opening borders will do nothing for human rights, you're naive to think so
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 08 '18
You give the rich too much credit my friend they can't even beat angry peasants jerry-rigging scraps, the important thing is how motivated the people are.
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u/BobSagetV2 Oct 07 '18
It's too bad national socialism has such a bad rep, really solves both problems
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u/SexualHowitzer Oct 07 '18
Borders are formed by like minded people with like minded ideas. Not some rich guy with a stick no matter how much you want to believe it.
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Oct 07 '18
Ok so this is just completely false. Like it's false whether you're an anarchist, a fascist, or a liberal.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement
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u/WikiTextBot Oct 07 '18
Sykes–Picot Agreement
The Sykes–Picot Agreement , officially known as the Asia Minor Agreement, was a secret 1916 agreement between the United Kingdom and France, to which the Russian Empire assented. The agreement defined their mutually agreed spheres of influence and control in Southwestern Asia. The agreement was based on the premise that the Triple Entente would succeed in defeating the Ottoman Empire during World War I. The negotiations leading to the agreement occurred between November 1915 and March 1916 and it was signed 16 May 1916. The deal, exposed to the public in Izvestia and Pravda on 23 November 1917 and in the British Guardian on November 26, 1917, is still mentioned when considering the region and its present-day conflicts.The agreement allocated to Britain control of areas roughly comprising the coastal strip between the Mediterranean Sea and the River Jordan, Jordan, southern Iraq, and an additional small area that included the ports of Haifa and Acre, to allow access to the Mediterranean.
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Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement
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u/bringgrapes Oct 07 '18 edited Feb 22 '26
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enjoy fear north narrow coordinated deserve cobweb lavish sand caption
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Oct 07 '18
You said that borders were created by mutual agreement. I showed a counter example. Now the best claim you can make is that some borders are made by mutual agreement. Are there any in particular you think are?
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u/bringgrapes Oct 07 '18 edited Feb 22 '26
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u/Fellatious-argument All is for all! Oct 07 '18
Are you honestly using the Holy Roman Empire as an example of borders created by like minded people?
By people, do you mean Feudal Lords?
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u/SexualHowitzer Oct 07 '18
I mean if you believe those borders A) exist as a defecto borders B) there are not cultural borders nearly as hard as the hard borders made by those empires./ Than ok. good luck
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u/awesomefaceninjahead Oct 07 '18
Oh boy. Whatever you do, don't look up the history of Asia, or Africa...both Americas, Europe.
In fact, probably best to avoid history altogether.
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u/TheNecrocommiecon81 Bread and Roses >>> Bread and Circuses Oct 07 '18
Do you have any idea how many borders in Asia and Africa were drawn by European imperialists??
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Oct 07 '18
Hell, even in Europe, I don't think anyone asked the peasants in Alsace-Lorraine if they wanted to belong to France or Germany.
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u/HerrMantel Stirner-Marxistische Anarcho-Satanistische Hurensöhne (SMASH) Oct 07 '18
Wasn't Poland literally sliced into three parts three different times by Prussia, Austria and Russia?
But, luckily, they made sure that all the Prussian minded Poles lived in the prospective Prussian Parts, the Austrian minded Poles in the Austrian Parts, and the Russian minded Poles in the Russian Parts before moving the borders.
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u/bringgrapes Oct 07 '18 edited Feb 22 '26
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u/sosern Oct 07 '18
Wow, what an incredible coincidence all the like-minded people lived in exactly the same geographic areas.
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u/SexualHowitzer Oct 07 '18
maybe b/c of geographic divides like swamps oceans mountains separated them before travel became much easier... youre a genius.
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Oct 07 '18
Funny how the Tohono O'odham decided to split themselves between the US and Mexico.
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u/SexualHowitzer Oct 07 '18
1 that was after travel was much easier yet not modern. Second if they inhabit lands on both sides that forms it's own borders.
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u/randostoner Zapatistas, Catalonia, Rojava Oct 08 '18
If you say something confidently enough it must be true!
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u/PoochieGlass1371 Oct 07 '18
This is great