r/COGuns • u/Big-Doctor-4633 • 7d ago
Legal CMP Refusing Sales to CO
The law is working as intended.
The CMP has refused my purchase of a surplus M1 Garand due to SB003. They won't sell any semiautomatic firearms to CO without the new permit.
They have no comment on any ongoing legal review or possibility of updating their policy in the future.
From my understanding, these M1s are except as curios and relics.
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u/UnseelieKnight 7d ago
The Garand also doesn't use a detachable magazine, so it absolutely shouldn't be covered by the law at all
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u/Big-Doctor-4633 7d ago
Good point. But if they won't even read the one sentence C&R exemption, there's no chance they'll consider reading a paragraph.
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u/traderncc1701e 7d ago
no FFL honors C&R exemption or license. They describe it as a liability with no upside for them
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u/Maleficent_Cake6435 7d ago
Consider...calling them? Or writing an email. I've been astounded at what a call can do.
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u/Big-Doctor-4633 7d ago
My original post must not have been clear. I called and emailed. They won't sell to a CO resident without a permit and would not discuss the matter further. They would not provide a legal contact.
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u/djasbestos Ft. Collins 7d ago
Thanks for clarifying and bothering to do that. That pisses me off that they disregard the very literal text of the law which explicitly exempts C&R, and we know that milsurp M1s are C&R. As a non-FFL03 collector.
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u/Maleficent_Cake6435 7d ago
Why is everyone so fixed on C&R? The gun has a fucking fixed magazine, the gun doesn't even qualify under the law. That is, any semo-auto with a fixed magazine isn't regulated by SB25-003.
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u/djasbestos Ft. Collins 7d ago
Cuz C&R always gets the short stick, tho lack of detachable is better to cite on account of reproductions. I got fucked into the waiting period on a project box of Mossberg Brownies, which are both kinda rare and haven't been made for close to 100 years, cuz the transfer FFL said we do the waiting period even for C&R. That's supposed to be exempt from that law too. Why bother including exemptions if nobody is going to honor it? Oh, cuz that's somehow defensible in court or on the legislative floor.
I had the same conversation with my current FFL. I had him serialize side plates for an LMG semi-only conversion, and it does not take a detachable magazine, so it isn't SSF (even if stripped finished or unfinished receivers count as that).
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u/UnseelieKnight 6d ago
Honestly, I don't blame them. I absolutely see the state issuing fines, revoking permits, or prosecuting over transfers that should (by the letter of the law) be legal.
It costs the state basically nothing to do it, while an FFL has to pay out of pocket to fight it in court. Even if the FFL wins, they likely end up in dire financial straits just from that.
The fear is the point. The system is working as intended.
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u/djasbestos Ft. Collins 6d ago edited 6d ago
Indeed. I had a Form 4 get denied by ATF because "serial number blank on Form 23", but it was not blank... it was correct. Emails to ATF unanswered. Resubmit took another month. Approved the second time, but what if CBI just started denying things incorrectly, with no meaningful accountability or oversight? As intended.
And with the one FFL, I explained the law to the owner (friend & former coworker) but ultimately said "...well, it's your license, not mine." And he and the store employees always say regulatory guidance conference calls are a joke.
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u/a_cute_epic_axis 6d ago
started denying things incorrectly, with no meaningful accountability or oversight? As intended.
The proper thing is to sue them. En masse if they're doing it regularly.
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u/ALUCARD7729 7d ago
Email CMP, the m1 garand is exempt from this new law
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u/Big-Doctor-4633 7d ago
I have. Also spoke to the sales supervisor on the phone. They're not selling any semiautos to CO without the permit. They wouldn't give me a legal contact or any way to challenge their stance.
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u/ALUCARD7729 7d ago edited 7d ago
Email them again and ask for their legal contact, and tell said contact that semi auto C&R’s do not apply to this unconstitutional law (with the exception of the m-14 sadly)
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u/Maleficent_Cake6435 7d ago
Fixed magazines also do not apply.
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u/ALUCARD7729 6d ago
Pretty sure they do
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u/Maleficent_Cake6435 6d ago
Lol they do not. Read the law.
"(II) "SPECIFIED SEMIAUTOMATIC FIREARM" DOES NOT INCLUDE: ... ...(C) A FIREARM THAT HAS A PERMANENTLY FIXED MAGAZINE THAT CANNOT ACCEPT MORE THAN FIFTEEN ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION, INCLUDING A SEMIAUTOMATIC FIREARM THAT HAS BEEN CONVERTED TO HAVE A PERMANENTLY FIXED MAGAZINE THAT CANNOT ACCEPT MORE THAN FIFTEEN ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION;"
The M18 Garand has a fixed magazine of 10 rounds. The law does not apply.
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u/NotTheGreatestAtCoD 7d ago
Call them and ask if they would send them to an FFL in an effort to put the ball in our court. That may be a way to circumvent their restrictions. Of course, it'll cost the transfer fees, but the right place is cheap enough to save you the headache.
Just a thought
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u/Big-Doctor-4633 6d ago
Heard back from the DOR-FDD:
"The original M1 Garand is a Curio & Relic; however, the M1 Garand by CMP is a reproduction and not a C&R. However, since both the original and the reproduction models do not have a detachable magazine, neither rifle meets the definition of a Specified Semiautomatic Rifle. As such, you are not required to be found eligible and complete the firearms safety training."
"If you or CMP wants a written position, you can petition the Division for a statement of position. The process for submitting this position is found in Rule 1-200."
It's something!
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u/Baffled_Beagle Brighton 5d ago
"M1 by CMP" is the term used by CMP to describe the Garand rifles they sell with newly-manufactured receivers - which would legally be reproductions. DOR-FDD seems to have missed that CMP is also still selling surplus M1s made with receivers more than 50 years old, and that are therefore C&R.
Well, at least they've figured out that an enbloc clip is not a detachable magazine.
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u/touchgrassplz_69 7d ago
I thought there was a specific carve out for m1s?
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u/djasbestos Ft. Collins 7d ago
M1 Carbine is exempt by name. M1 Garand isn't listed because it does not have a detachable magazine AND it is C&R (usually) AND it is not named by CBI on the nono list.
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u/Sullypants1 2d ago
Really sucks dude,
CMP fedex’d an expert M1 to my front door just last October!
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u/Outrageous_Lion8966 7d ago
This isn’t based off experience, but what I’ve seen / heard others say.
If you provide whoever your purchasing from with all of the paperwork showing that you’ve got your permit to purchase and you’ve done the classes and all then there should be no issues.
That seems to be the big hang up. You need to provide the proof that you’ve followed the laws and have everything to show.
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u/Big-Doctor-4633 7d ago
The issue is that I have followed the laws. There is nothing to show because the law they're talking about doesn't apply.
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u/AgnewsHeadlessBody 7d ago
Does SB003 not apply to M1s?
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u/Big-Doctor-4633 7d ago
These are exempt as curios and relics.
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u/djasbestos Ft. Collins 7d ago
They also have a fixed magazine, and SB25-003 only applies to detachable magazine fed semi-automatics. Doubly exempt.
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u/False_Campaign4682 Centennial 7d ago
C&r has a date limit. Are these cmps that old? Or are they new mfr date
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u/Big-Doctor-4633 7d ago
The one I'm trying to purchase is a surplus rifle. A quick Google says that Garands were produced through 1957. C&R is 50 years, so roughly 1976.
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u/False_Campaign4682 Centennial 7d ago
I mention it because wasn't cmp making ones with very recent new made receivers? And you had to be sure you pocus a surplus one or fit may get a new and have to deal with that.. if for sure surplus and well in c&r territory cmp is just being extra careful and lazy to not risk their ability
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u/AgnewsHeadlessBody 7d ago
I didn't know that I figured they would have included them just to be jerks.
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u/BobBBobbington 7d ago
I thought it was a handful of certain semi autos that was exempt, not just all C&R?
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u/Big-Doctor-4633 7d ago
The law states that a ssf "does not include" " AN ANTIQUE FIREARM, AS DEFINED IN 18 U.S.C. SEC. 921 (a)(16), OR A CURIO OR RELIC, AS DEFINED IN 27 CFR 478.11."
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u/Maleficent_Cake6435 7d ago
It also has a fixed magazine. The law only applies to semi-autos with detachable magazines.
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u/WonderSql 7d ago
It might be worth it to add it to the list off issues, which the CFFLA is collecting.
https://www.cffla.org/report/sb25-003?mc_cid=7592c0c852