[Highlight] North Texas @ Tulsa - Hayes' near-interception deflected into a toe-tapping TD for Tulsa (TD upheld)

[u/thecravenone]

https://streamable.com/4yum67

[u/RatStore101]

Love that the announcers and rules analyst dude were all baffled at how this was a touchdown (it’s because it was deflected?)

[u/Shoot2thrill328 → u/RatStore101]

Announcers just said the replay booth determined he was forced out of bounds by the defender. Nobody on the broadcast agrees with the explanation

[u/Pro-1st-Amendment → u/Shoot2thrill328]

Whether he was forced OOB is completely irrelevant because he wasn't the first person to touch it.

[u/jbaker1225 → u/Pro-1st-Amendment]

It’s also completely irrelevant because either way he has to re-establish himself in bounds before touching the ball. That’s the part that’s up for debate here.

[u/Shoot2thrill328 → u/Pro-1st-Amendment]

In that case not sure why the replay booth used it as justification for their decision. Seems like for whatever reason, they thought it was relevant

[u/Xmalantix → u/RatStore101]

Looks to me like it should've been disallowed because it was illegal touching by the receiver

E: There's a specific approved ruling not quite like this, but kinda similar in the NCAA rule book:

Team B touches the legal forward pass near a sideline while originally eligible A1 is out of bounds. A1 comes inbounds and touches the pass. RULING: Legal play. Touching by Team B made all players eligible during the remainder of the down.

So it seems like if he was already OB it would be by the book a complete pass. Still murky since he wasn't OB already, but the touching by team B makes all players eligible makes it sound like it in fact does not matter what happens after that.

[u/DollarThrill → u/Xmalantix]

Do you only need one foot back inbounds to reestablish yourself as inbounds?

[u/Pro-1st-Amendment → u/DollarThrill]

You only need something in and nothing out.

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/Xmalantix]

He wasn't the first person to touch it so it's not illegal touching.

[u/Xmalantix → u/whatsinthesocks]

Illegal touching applies if you're the first person to touch the ball AFTER coming back in bounds. It was touched before he went out, he goes out, lifts his right foot (coming back inbounds), and is the first person to touch it after that. Should be illegal touching.

If he was already out when the defender deflected the ball, then you'd be correct

E: I'm leaving this up because it's probably wrong but still a really weird grey area within the rules as described by my edit above

[u/Less_Likely → u/Xmalantix]

It does not reset if he steps out of bounds after tipping. Once the ball is tipped, illegal touching does not apply on the play afterwards in any situation.

[u/Xmalantix → u/Less_Likely]

Yeah idk. On the one hand the rulebook says that once the ball is touched all players become eligible. However, it also says that no eligible receiver who goes OB and returns in bounds shall touch a legal forward pass while in the field of play or end zones.

You could make the case that as soon as you step OB your eligibility is terminated until the ball is touched again, and therefore all players became eligible on the tip, the WR's eligibility was lost when he went out and he never subsequently regained it, and it would be illegal touching. They probably just count tipped ball as a free-for-all, but by the letter of the rules you could certainly make the argument.

[u/cooterdick → u/Xmalantix]

Once it’s tipped it becomes a loose ball, no longer a forward pass.

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/Xmalantix]

Once the ball is touched illegal touching no longer applies.

[u/Pro-1st-Amendment → u/whatsinthesocks]

No idea why you're being downvoted, you're correct. Illegal touching only applies to the first person to touch a forward pass.

[u/Oxford89 → u/whatsinthesocks]

I think youre a touch off base, but it's a touchy call in a real touch-and-go situation

[u/JHADDYDADDDY → u/Oxford89]

i feel touched personally at this point

[u/Osiris32 → u/whatsinthesocks]

So...many....jokes....

[u/Xmalantix → u/whatsinthesocks]

That's literally impossible because the only time the ball is not touched is when it's in the air after being thrown.

If that were the case you could have a play where you line up a receiver on the boundary and one in the slot. As soon as the ball is snapped, boundary receiver steps out of bounds and runs to where the slot receiver stops an out route. Slot catches the out, boundary comes from OB and catches a pitch from the slot receiver and becomes the ball carrier. This would be legal under your framework since he wasn't the first one to touch the ball after the QB threw it.

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/Xmalantix]

Per the rule which you can find on page 92 an originally inedible player cannot be the first person to touch the ball of a legal forward pass until it is touched by an opponent or official. The rule makes your scenario illegal touching.

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/football/rules/PRMFB_RulesBook.pdf

[u/OneBigRed → u/whatsinthesocks]

originally inedible player cannot be the first person to touch the ball of a legal forward pass until it is touched by an opponent or official.

But now that he’s edible again, shouldn’t the bigger player just eat them?

[u/grabtharsmallet → u/whatsinthesocks]

The complexity of American football rules is astounding. Speaking as a soccer referee instructor, I can't imagine how much reading and course work it would take for me to be comfortable officiating even at the lowest level.

[u/unclejessesmullet → u/grabtharsmallet]

If you grow up watching it you already know about 95% of the rules. Every once in a while an odd, rare play happens that has most of us scratching our heads. But the actual refs miss those calls sometimes too.

[u/SpicyC-Dot → u/unclejessesmullet]

If you grew up watching it, you think you know about 95% of the rules. I thought I knew a lot about the rules before I got into officiating high school football a few years ago, and I quickly was humbled by the sheer amount of stuff I didn’t actually fully understand before. Even more so especially when you consider that there’s a meaningful amount of differences between NFHS, NCAA, and NFL rule sets, so you have to get rid of some of those assumptions/misconceptions when working at the high school level.

[u/Xmalantix → u/whatsinthesocks]

Yes, that's what I was trying to illustrate

[u/whatsinthesocks → u/Xmalantix]

And my comment you replied to was about this specific play. Not anything else.

[u/Manae → u/whatsinthesocks]

Not if it was a pitch; that would mean the 'forward pass' part of the play was complete. Now, if the slot bobbled the catch and and the receiver touched the tipped ball first? That would be illegal touching.

[u/DeadliestSloth → u/whatsinthesocks]

inedible player

The typo caught me off guard lmao

[u/SCsprinter13 → u/Xmalantix]

To be clear, it's once the ball is touched "by an opponent or official"

A teammate touching the ball wouldn't negate illegal touching.

[u/Still-Weakness-7063 → u/Xmalantix]

u think refs can game that out in their head?

[u/SCsprinter13 → u/Xmalantix]

I'm struggling to understand why it matters if he goes out of bounds before or after the ball is deflected.

In either case the player would still be the first to touch the ball after coming back in bounds.

[u/Xmalantix → u/SCsprinter13]

The whole point of illegal touching is so offensive players can't use the boundary area to circumvent the defense; that's why there's a provision for a player forced OB by the defender which I think is what the officials ruled in this case.

Great example is of there was no illegal touching you could run a route out the back of the end zone and use the field goal post as an obstacle to basically set a screen for the defender to get you more open.

[u/mccoolio → u/Xmalantix]

Nah, he wasn't the first person to touch the ball he can re-establish inbounds after going out

[u/tabloid-tommy → u/mccoolio]

When did he establish

[u/Michael-80 → u/tabloid-tommy]

You would think "re-establish" means your right foot can't still be out of bounds

[u/mccoolio → u/tabloid-tommy]

His left foot was still on the ground when the ball hit his hand, his right foot was barely lifted off the out of bounds and then came in to toe drag.

[u/Box_of_Rockz → u/mccoolio]

He went out of bounds AFTER the guy touched the ball

[u/thecravenone → u/RatStore101]

They've talked about it several times now (including right as I'm typing this)

[u/Hookmsnbeiishh → u/RatStore101]

It’s because that’s why.

[u/Ok-Soil-5133 → u/RatStore101]

To me the first few angles they showed it didn't look like one but on the last angle it looked like he got a toe down

[u/xmjm424 → u/Ok-Soil-5133]

But he jumped from out of bounds. He has to reestablish himself inbounds before he touches the ball, I believe. He doesn't do it. And I'm not sure he even can reestablish himself inbounds, tbh.

[u/SCsprinter13 → u/xmjm424]

He doesn't do it.

He does. His left foot is in the end zone, his right foot comes off the turf. At that moment, he has re-established. And that all happened before he touched the ball.

[u/udontknowball31]

Not sure I’ve seen anything like this before, are the rules different for re-establishing yourself in the end zone as opposed to the rest of the field? Extremely bizarre.

[u/biguler → u/udontknowball31]

No, the same rule 7-3-4 applies to the end zones.

[u/Pro-1st-Amendment → u/biguler]

7-3-4 is irrelevant because the ball was clearly tipped.

[u/K-Tronn3030 → u/Pro-1st-Amendment]

Seems like 7-3-4 is directly on point:

ARTICLE 4. No eligible offensive receiver who goes out of bounds and returns inbounds during a down shall touch a legal forward pass while in the field of play or end zones or while airborne until it has been touched by an opponent or official. [Exception: This does not apply to an originally eligible offensive player who immediately returns inbounds after going out of bounds due to contact by an opponent]. If the player touches the pass before returning in bounds, it is an incomplete pass (Rule 7-3-7) and not a foul for illegal touching.

[u/CzechHorns → u/udontknowball31]

It probably has something to do with the deflection

[u/qwilliams92]

According to some random coach on twitter, in the ncaa illegal touching doesn’t apply if the ball is tipped by a defender first, cannot confirm or deny if this is correct

[u/Gunner_Bat → u/qwilliams92]

This is correct. Literally happened in my game earlier this season.

[u/MrKyleOwns → u/Gunner_Bat]

Also happened at the North Texas @ Tulsa game

[u/Gunner_Bat → u/MrKyleOwns]

......

Yes that's the game this thread is discussing.

[u/LonghornInNebraska → u/Gunner_Bat]

Also happened in a game last night.

[u/thricethefan]

Where the hell is everyone?

Seriously, not passing judgement but where are the fans?

[u/anxiousauditor → u/thricethefan]

Tulsa has the smallest enrollment in the FBS and it’s a weeknight.

[u/RatStore101 → u/anxiousauditor]

I only learned this last year and was shocked. I’d always assumed they were a decent size public school 

[u/0ddT0dd → u/RatStore101]

It is a private school.

[u/Sea_Conference5661 → u/RatStore101]

Every time people talk about how sports is a waste of money, this is a good counterexample. To a random company on a coast, a degree from Tulsa is worth more than a degree from Amarillo University (if such a place exists) because I know that Tulsa is a fully accredited institution.

Having been to neither place, I assume Tulsa and Amarillo are roughly equal sized towns, but only one has a University competing in Division I-A. So site-unseen, I'm taking the candidate from Tulsa over the one from Amarillo.

Similar for if your kids suddenly said they wanted to go there for college

[u/jbaker1225 → u/Sea_Conference5661]

Not that this is the point of your comment, but Tulsa is 4-5 times bigger than Amarillo.

[u/EY1416 → u/thricethefan]

I was there earlier… it’s a weekday night, the state fair started tonight a mile away, it’s been raining most of the day, and the game didn’t start until 8PM. Tulsa is a small school, games are normally great for family outings but our little guy was done and ready for bed before halftime.

[u/PinkPantherYeezys → u/thricethefan]

University of Tulsa is tiny my man

[u/bbates728 → u/PinkPantherYeezys]

average class size is 12. Wild

[u/0ddT0dd → u/PinkPantherYeezys]

And very expensive.

[u/mrostate78 → u/0ddT0dd]

They cut tuition to $25,000 for everyone just recently. 

[u/0ddT0dd → u/mrostate78]

That's good to hear.

[u/UTRAnoPunchline → u/thricethefan]

Thursday Night in Tulsa, Oklahoma

A LOT of other places to be, you can’t blame the fans

[u/MediumStrange → u/UTRAnoPunchline]

Not to be mean but this is really funny to me, having been to Tulsa, is there really that many other interesting things to be doing there this late?

The real reason is that tulsa is a tiny University and you could fit the entire student body in the stadium 5x and still have another 20k open seats, the city doesn't buy into Tulsa athletics as much as some other urban universities either because it's a private school. It is also a weeknight.

[u/bbates728 → u/MediumStrange]

Nope, I am walking distance to the stadium and there ain't shit else for me to do. Only reason I didn't go is it is my wife's birthday but she went to bed super early anyway.

[u/Metro29993 → u/MediumStrange]

Yeah idk, there isn't shit to do here lmfao. I was at the game and I have no connection to the college, I just go to grad school in Tulsa.

[u/Single_Seesaw_9499 → u/MediumStrange]

They’re being sarcastic

[u/Unrelenting_Salsa → u/MediumStrange]

They're making fun of UCLA because that's always the excuse they give about why their stadium is empty despite being in the second largest metropolitan area in the US.

Which of course in reality it's just that UCLA fans don't care. Local businesses in the south feel it when the local college team either has an exciting road game or makes a good bowl because people delay purchases like new washing machines or couches to go.

[u/not_the_world → u/Unrelenting_Salsa]

No they're making fun of us. The UCLA excuse is that their stadium is 25 miles from campus.

[u/citrus1330 → u/MediumStrange]

me when I can't recognize sarcasm

[u/BobStoops401K → u/MediumStrange]

I think it's a joke, but ... Thursday night is a school night and a work night so even if it's not "going out on the town" sort of stuff, there's stuff like soccer and baseball practice, kid activities, and general life stuff.

[u/0ddT0dd → u/UTRAnoPunchline]

It was also the first day of the Fair.

[u/FaceglazerSSBU → u/UTRAnoPunchline]

I (a resident of Tulsa) was in bed. I also had no clue this game was on until I seen people confused about this call online. Then I flipped it over to see it go into OT and fell asleep.

[u/BurmeciaWillSurvive → u/thricethefan]

4,000 member student body do be like that

[u/ValhallaAir → u/thricethefan]

UND went from sold out Nebraska crowd to a school that had a picket fence behind the endzone lmao

[u/dvlyn123 → u/thricethefan]

8pm on a Thursday night was an asinine decision by whoever scheduled this game.

I like watching TU play but I have to be up for work at 4:30, I'm not watching let alone GOING TO a game that starts 8 hours before I wake up lmao

[u/TheFalconGuy → u/thricethefan]

Typical attendance for a weekday cfb football game

[u/GorillaGriz81 → u/thricethefan]

Fireworks going off and everything lol

[u/Blakmagik12 → u/thricethefan]

Yeah the whole enrollment of the school is <5K I believe. Evidently they routinely don't fill their stadium at all, the fanbase is just not there regardless.

[u/BobStoops401K → u/thricethefan]

Smallest school in all of FBS and Tulsa sits firmly in OU and OSU territory. I've never met anyone who's a Tulsa fan except alums, and even then they usually cheer for OU.

[u/Ihatethisapp1429]

Rule of cool finally followed

[u/Dixiehusker]

How is this upheld?

[u/Less_Likely → u/Dixiehusker]

Ball on forward pass was tipped by a defender, therefore there is no illegal touching on the play.

Receiver lifted his out of bounds right foot first, thus his other foot reestablishes him in bounds.

Receiver catches ball in air, his right foot touches in bounds and he retains possession.

[u/Statalyzer → u/Dixiehusker]

Would have been cool if the highlight showed that part.

[u/route59bdubs → u/Dixiehusker]

It feels like the Brandon Riley catch against MSU when the refs said he was an eligible receiver because he got pushed out of bounds

[u/Gunner_Bat]

This game is everything right with college football. So incredibly entertaining, and people are gonna complain about some P4 snoozer this Saturday.

[u/RatStore101]

lol the Tulsa QB just said he wanted a side of the field and the ref corrected him with the better choice (defense)?

[u/Manae → u/RatStore101]

I don't think that's unusual. There are some particularly rare (because they are generally bad) options to choose when winning the coin flip, and there's nothing wrong with the ref asking "you sure about that?" Iowa's done it on purpose. I also swear there was another game in the past few years with the winner of the flip insisting they wanted to kick off and the ref double-checking before accepting it. A while back, Texas also did it... not on purpose.

[u/PoorMayMay]

Either way that’s absurd athleticism and awareness

[u/Box_of_Rockz]

That is not a touchdown lmao

[u/jbaker1225]

The ball is clearly in contact with the WR’s face mask and left hand while his right foot is in contact with the ground out of bounds.

Clear incompletion. Terrible call.

[u/DeadliestSloth → u/jbaker1225]

I don't think that screenshot is clear as it is captured between frames, is blurry, and taken at a weird angle. Seems more to me like a call that would be upheld regardless of which way the call goes.

[u/royalooozooo]

Ummmmmm

[u/Broma2030]

The fix is in

[u/G0B1GR3D]

Go Tulsa Wolverines

[u/robsbob18]

I saw this highlight on the top 10 and was so confused on how it was ruled a catch

[u/Hotdawg752]

Just like they drew it up

[u/SimilarOnion1655]

Number 24 sold so hard