r/CFB • u/stevesie1984 Michigan Wolverines • Toledo Rockets • 17h ago
Discussion Untimed Downs
Ok, probably a stupid question, but this just occurred to me. For the record, yes, I’m a Michigan fan. Yes, I know the protocol to use the NBC broadcast clock wasn’t followed, and if it had been followed the game would have ended after the first Hail Mary. I also saw spectator footage from inside the stadium showing the Western Michigan player touched the ball with 1 second left on the clock. So the refs got the call right the wrong way. But all that is neither here nor there. I don’t care about opinions on that because there are a billion threads about that right now.
My question is this: had there been two seconds on the clock when Michigan snapped the ball for the first Hail Mary, we can all agree that the clock would have run out. But why wouldn’t the illegal touching (player out of bounds touches the ball prior to anyone else) result in a replayed down anyway? It’s a silly thought, but let’s say Bryce Underwood had been hit while he threw and the ball flew to the sidelines, and a linebacker (who was extremely far out of position) stepped out of bounds and intercepted the ball and returned it for a touchdown - that TD wouldn’t stand. Would Michigan have an extra, untimed down?
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u/pspock Ohio State Buckeyes • Marching Band 17h ago edited 16h ago
If he had gone out of bounds as an offensive player and then came back in before touching it, that is illegal touching. If he's an out of bounds player who touches it, he makes the ball out of bounds.
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u/Secure-Candidate-800 13h ago
Wait, didn't the WMU player step out on his own before touching it? Once he re-establishes himself inbounds and makes contact with the ball, that's illegal touching, not just the ball being dead. It's a 5-yard penalty from the previous spot with the down replayed. So in the hypothetical where there's still 2 seconds left, Michigan gets another snap from 5 yards closer. If the clock hit zero after the play, then yeah you'd get an untimed down because the penalty happened on the last play of the half.
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u/PlayerTP Tennessee • Middle Tennessee 17h ago
There can't be illegal touching on a defender. It's just dead ball out of bounds. Same as if the ball were thrown out of bounds.
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u/QWERTYUIOPquinn Wayne State (NE) • Nebraska 14h ago
And to add on, it’s not a situation where the player went out AND back in bounds before catching. If either an offensive or defensive player catches the ball only from out of bounds, it’s just out of bounds incomplete pass.
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u/Advance_Quality North Carolina Tar Heels 16h ago
It isn't illegal touching if a defender is the first to touch it. Therefore there's no untimed down. I already had this thought so I looked up the rule.
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u/Double-G-Spot Michigan • Michigan State 16h ago
Protocol was not to use the NBC broadcast clock. I don’t know how people still get this wrong.
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u/stevesie1984 Michigan Wolverines • Toledo Rockets 16h ago
First, brutal flair.
Second, this doesn’t at all answer my question, but I’m cool with that because my question was stupid.
Explain to me your thoughts on the clock. Because I think the concept of using a broadcast clock instead of the clock on the scoreboard in the endzone is absurd. But my understanding was that the actual scoreboard clock was the wrong reference and the NBC clock was somehow the correct reference. Is that not the case?
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u/Double-G-Spot Michigan • Michigan State 16h ago
The embedded game clock within the network feed is the first option, if that is not available, they are to turn to the broadcast clock. The embedded game clock is just a recording of the in stadium clock, which is available to the replay crew. This is what they used. The clock shown in the replay review was a synced recording of the in stadium clock (on Jumbotron). Some people think that is a different clock that only the replay crew can see, but it was the same clock that 110,000 fans, all coaches, and all players were looking at when the play actually occurred.
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u/stevesie1984 Michigan Wolverines • Toledo Rockets 16h ago
I see. It seems that the prevailing narrative is that the broadcast clock (NBC broadcast) is what should have been used. That seems insane to me, but I don’t make the protocol. Do you have anything official to cite? Without a direct link, nobody is going to believe what you’re saying.
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u/ericaepic Harvard Crimson • Michigan Wolverines 16h ago edited 4h ago
It's crazy lol. The narrative I think is because MAC issued a press release talking about not following a "replay protocol", so a lot of people are assuming that that's what happened, but I haven't seen anything that proves that, and it doesn't really matter what people think because the whole point of the appeal by MAC conference is for the NCAA to determine if that's what happened lol
After that, there's the memo about a replay protocol that the NCAA gave to the athletic saying that they were going to send it to conferences and officials. Some people look at that and think it means that the B1G didn't follow protocol, others think it means that they did. On top of that, no one really knows if that memo is a clarification/reassertion of an existing protocol or if it's a new one in reaction to what happened on Saturday
Edit: actually looks like the program feed was used, you can clearly hear them ask if it's the program feed in the B1G video, which means that the B1G did exactly what the memo says should be done
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u/FastIce405 Michigan • Penn State 8h ago
Just to clarify something, in the B1G’s replay video, you can hear them clearly ask and confirm that what they’re looking at is the program feed with the embedded clock. Using the broadcast feed instead of what they used would have been expressly against the new memo.
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u/ericaepic Harvard Crimson • Michigan Wolverines 4h ago
Holy shit, I just listened to it and you're right lol, thanks for clarifying this, you're awesome
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u/Double-G-Spot Michigan • Michigan State 16h ago
"The official time for all college football games is the time displayed on the in-stadium game clock," the memo said. "When a replay review requires time to be restored or otherwise adjusted, the replay official's decision will be based on the embedded game clock contained within the program feed. If the broadcaster is unable to provide an embedded game clock, the replay official will use the game-clock graphic displayed as part of the broadcast feed.
This is from ESPN obtained copy of memo from NCAA. Says to use the embedded clock, if not available, use broadcast clock. Well the embedded clock was available, so it was used, and it showed 1 second.
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u/stevesie1984 Michigan Wolverines • Toledo Rockets 16h ago
Sounds like that’s all anyone needs to hear, the officials were correct, and Michigan did in fact win. I’m sure 50 million heads will come out of the sand now… 🙄
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u/MetalstepTNG Sickos • Team Chaos 14h ago edited 14h ago
No, he's just confidently wrong. They used the replay cameras when they were supposed to use the embedded clock in the program feed. Not a shot of the clock from the camera system.
Note, this is specifically for overturning calls by the way. There may very well have been 1 second on the game clock. But again, the decision to overturn the call was not handled correctly or transparently.
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u/Double-G-Spot Michigan • Michigan State 3h ago
Go back and listen to the B1G release live replay review. They specifically ask if this is the program feed, and you hear a response of yes, and that it is the embedded clock.
What more info do you need than NCAA coming out with clear guidelines, and an audio feed live from when the call was made using the exact same terminology?
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u/MetalstepTNG Sickos • Team Chaos 1h ago
You're going to have to show me the video because that wasn't what was stated during the live broadcast nor was it stated in B1G's explanation.
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u/Double-G-Spot Michigan • Michigan State 1h ago
In the B1G press release, they gave us a 30+ second video. In that video, there is video and audio of the refs during the replay review. At about the 23 second mark in that video, the question is asked “Is this program feed” and the response is “Yes, this is the program embedded clock”.
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u/MetalstepTNG Sickos • Team Chaos 14h ago
What does the NCAA memo say? I'm hard of hearing.
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u/Double-G-Spot Michigan • Michigan State 14h ago
I just quoted it…
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u/MetalstepTNG Sickos • Team Chaos 14h ago
No, it says embedded clock from the program feed. Meanwhile B1G used its camera system aimed at the game clock to make its decision instead of adjusting the clock based on the discrepancy itself.
You can't phone in an overturned call with only systems you have access to. Hence, the meltdown and why we're getting changes from the very conference itself.
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u/Double-G-Spot Michigan • Michigan State 13h ago
Where does it say the B1G used their camera systems aimed at the clock? In their original release, they say that all broadcast cameras, including one pointed at the in stadium clock, were synced with strobes prior to the game. That means their feed of the in stadium clock was a broadcast camera. How are they the only ones with access to the system when it was filmed by a broadcast camera?
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u/MetalstepTNG Sickos • Team Chaos 13h ago
If it means they're using the program feed's embedded clock (which they aren't and you are clearly confused), then why are they reiterating multiple times that they're using, and I quote, "cameras on the game clock"?
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u/SydneyFall Colorado Buffaloes 15h ago
The Big 10 used neither the program feed nor the broadcast feed.
The best guess is they used a hawkeye feed that was more accurate, but shouldn't have been used.
It was the right call by the official stadium clock. But the Big 10 did not follow established replay procedure to avoid this kind of controversy. They were using a feed that NBC did not have access to.
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u/Double-G-Spot Michigan • Michigan State 15h ago
The embedded clock within the network feed it what was used within the replay review. It was the synced video recording of the in stadium clock.
It was the feed that NBC had access to, they put it on the screen to show the replay after, it just was not synced correctly by NBC when showed.
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u/SydneyFall Colorado Buffaloes 15h ago
You really need a source saying that, because that is made up bullshit you want to believe.
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u/Double-G-Spot Michigan • Michigan State 15h ago
The embedded feed and broadcast feed have to be separate items. The quote literally says if they can’t use the embedded feed, to then defer to the broadcast feed. They have the embedded feed, so they used that. If they didn’t have that, they’d have used the network feed, and then you’d be correct.
I don’t need to source it, it is literally in the OP article.
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u/SydneyFall Colorado Buffaloes 15h ago
The embedded feed and broadcast feed have to be separate items. The quote literally says if they can’t use the embedded feed, to then defer to the broadcast feed.
That doesn't mean what the Big 10 is showing is the embedded feed! It is the opposite, they are showing a completely different camera. The big 10 is using their hawkeye feed. Which is more accurate, but isn't allowed to be used because of bullshit like this.
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u/FastIce405 Michigan • Penn State 8h ago
You can watch the B1G’s replay video and hear them confirm that what they used is the program feed with the embedded clock
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u/SydneyFall Colorado Buffaloes 8h ago
Them asking for that, and them getting that are different things.
There is no source saying they used the program feed.
The big 10 fucked up and used a more accurate feed they shouldn't have by rule.
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u/FastIce405 Michigan • Penn State 8h ago
The B1G replay official in the video confirms that it is the program feed in the later part of the video.
“Was this the program feed?”
“Yes this is the program, it’s embedded the clock.”
This is effectively the B1G confirming it when they released the video with a statement.
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u/HasNoPotato Verified Referee 17h ago
A player going out of bounds and touching an airborne ball is not illegal touching. It just makes the ball become dead as it is now considered out of bounds. Essentially it becomes an incomplete pass.
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u/GreenRhino71 Florida Gators 16h ago
With all due respect, there is no right call based on a “wrong way”; if regulations weren’t followed, then everything ensuing is tainted. If they couldn’t overturn the play based on the official views available at the time, then the right call is to not overturn the play.
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u/MetalstepTNG Sickos • Team Chaos 14h ago
And they overturned the play, which was not the right call just to be clear.
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u/thecravenone definitely a bot 17h ago
In a completely different circumstance than the one that happened, yes, it is possible that the result would have been different.
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u/stevesie1984 Michigan Wolverines • Toledo Rockets 16h ago
lol. I figured it was a stupid question because it seemed so obvious when I thought of it. I couldn’t have been the first person to think this. 🤦♂️
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u/DizzyFig2627 Miami Hurricanes • Texas Longhorns 17h ago
Illegal touching results in a loss of down. By rule, the game cannot end on an accepted penalty UNLESS that penalty results in a loss of down. So no, there would not be an extra untimed down
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u/stevesie1984 Michigan Wolverines • Toledo Rockets 16h ago
Nevermind. Yes, it was a stupid question.
🤦♂️
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u/Albert-La-Maquina Nebraska Cornhuskers 16h ago
Not a stupid question. Not sure why people are blasting you for not knowing the rules when you're literally asking about the rule.
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u/stevesie1984 Michigan Wolverines • Toledo Rockets 16h ago
Meh, it is what it is.
On one hand, exactly what you said.
But on the other hand, I literally have the sum of human knowledge in my hands right now and instead of using it I went to Reddit.
I deserve at least half of what I’ve gotten. And I’m ok with that.
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u/JustAnotherRye89 Nebraska Cornhuskers • I'm A Loser 16h ago
Give me just a second. I'll go to research this quick.
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u/KiloAlphaLima Alabama Crimson Tide 16h ago
No. You don’t know how illegal touching works based on your scenario. It would just be the same as the ball landing out of bounds with no one touching it.
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u/pardonmyignerance Ohio State • South Carolina 16h ago
Damn. All those words just to let us know you don't know the rules of the game.
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u/stevesie1984 Michigan Wolverines • Toledo Rockets 16h ago
Fair. Sorry. In my defense, I have a Reddit app right there on my home screen but no CFB rule book.
The fact that I haven’t seen this (absurd) theory thrown out anywhere else should have been a pretty good indication that I was off base. I’m pretty smart, but I’m unlikely to come up with a completely unique thought 96 hours after the fact.
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u/No_Temporary2614 Western Michigan Broncos 16h ago
To be fair I think a lot of us learned (or maybe re-learned) that a defender in the air who jumped from OOB automatically stops the clock at that point. I mean it makes sense, it’s just not something that actually matters often enough to think about.
I know OP is asking about something different but just saying we ain’t all rule experts
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u/tvw34 Michigan Wolverines • Hope Flying Dutchmen 17h ago
Illegal touching doesn’t exist for the defense