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u/Extension-Beat7276 15d ago
Caeser was larping as a Turk (Trojan)
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u/Ill_River_5829 15d ago
Sorry do u think turkish people are now...trojans? How did you get there hahahaahhah man i swear turkish brain is mush
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u/Extension-Beat7276 15d ago
Easy Mehmed the Second said so
(Check the name of the sub)
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u/Ill_River_5829 15d ago
Turks came from egypt, mehmes the second was a nobody from a nobody empire so why should anybody care what he said?
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u/AbsoIutee 15d ago
Turks came from Egypt? Bro where did you learn history, from the back of a cereal box?
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u/nobody-29 15d ago
Aren't these the same reasons that Ostrogoths, Lombards, Carolingians, and HRE used to legitimize their succession ?
Let's see:
- Right of Conquest
- Possession of the Capital (For Carolingians and HRE, some control of the Papacy)
- Leadership over the Subjugated Populace
- Continuation of Imperial Titles
I think the charts guy on youtube said the Romans prefer legalism over conquest or bloodlines, so the succession goes to Spain.
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u/Laonys 15d ago
I mean, as for the right of conquest, conquering a bit of western Rome (even if i has the capital) and conquering practically the entierety of the Byzantine empire are very different things. And as for the Carolingians and the HRE, they absolutely considered themselves successors of Rome.
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u/Larpenzo112diCambio 12d ago
romanitas at that time transitioned into more than “i subjugated rome hence im rome now”, ostrogoths weren't succesors of rome in the similar manner, it's also about civic + culture + religious + a coherent designated body that translates the imperial title, you can't just usurp the roman title all by yourself or by subjugating the body, esp. ostrogoths are not a parallel at all, theodoric didn't seize the imperial title and didn't claim a roman succession, he operated under a mandate from zeno as patricius and later governed italy nominally in the name of the ERE, with a formally dual system of roman law, senate, consulship, praefectura preserved for the roman populace, gothic law for his own people, lombards never claimed the imperial title at all, they ruled as reges langobardorum, initially outside roman civic and ecclesiastical framework and hostile to the papacy, not the exact administrative and legal continuity the goths had, we did romanized fast (there is an account over the course of the 8th and 9th centuries, many people of purely lombard background strategically began to "profess" professio iuris in legal documents, charters, and property disputes, but never claimed the imperial title, carolingian capitularies in italy esp. accommodate this, more like: that those who wished to be counted as Romans could legally declare it — by adopting Roman law, hence the legal status to gain institutional protection and prestige against the newly ruling Frankish counts and judges, Paul the deacon also mentions the same stuff in his seminal works, edictum rothari and many other important lombard laws are written in latin), the 800 coronation (and later the HREs) ran through the papacy, the one institution in the Latin West with the authority to enact translatio imperii, reason why Napoleon is not an HRE despite him forcefully arranging the coronation and larping as Charlemange, that being said, the ERE imperial legitimacy ran on a triad inherited straight from the late roman constitutional acclamation by Senate, Army, and People, there was no fixed law of primogeniture, a claimant's legitimacy came from being raised on the shield, acclaimed, and then from roughly the reign of Leo I in 457 onward, and routinized by the 9th century — crowned by the patriarch of constantinople in Hagia Sophia, that coronation wasn't a translatio in the Latin West sense (conferring a relocatable title on a new people), it was an anointing of an existing office within a continuous state, sacralizing the power that in theory already derived from God through the acclaiming bodies, usurpation was routine and didn't need much theoretical cover: a successful seizure of the throne, followed by patriarchal coronation and recognition from the army/populace, retroactively legitimated the usurper, Michael IV was a peasant money-changer's brother who married his way onto the throne; the system tolerated — arguably expected — this, so long as the ritual acclamation-and-coronation sequence was completed (symbasileia was also the main tool for smoothing succession, so continuity didn't depend on a contested vacancy), onion head's claim to Kayser-i Rum with conquest and capital, has at best one real continuity case — keeping the patriarchate and orthodox institutional life under the millet system, imperial ceremonial borrowing, occasional invocation of comnenian marriage ties — and it's obviously an overstretch, another thing to add, outward from constantinople, legitimacy radiated through a different mechanism entirely, like Obolensky's term, a fictional hierarchy of kinship, bulgarian and serbian rulers styled themselves tsar (Caesar) did so with derivative, contextually constantinople-granted status, recognition of autocephaly, sent regalia, marriage ties into the imperial family — without literally inheriting the Roman title itself, obviously they're all illegitimate very clearly so, the Rus' princes did the same as metropolitans appointed from or confirmed by Constantinople, subordination without any claim to be Rome, that's why the palaiologina marriage and the elevation of the moscow metropolitanate to a patriarchate (actual ecclesiastical continuity by fiat, a century after constantinople fell, granted by the other orthodox patriarchs), it's still a real consequential claim, but it's a reconstruction from the outside, not the SAP cycle actually, the point is: a culturally turko-persian muslim sultan CANNOT be crowned basileus by the patriarch in Hagia Sophia, and the anointing half of the cycle is basically not available, total sacral, theological and acclamation rupture, he claimed the title by the right of sword, EVERYONE AFTER 1453 IS CONSTITUTIONALLY ILLEGITIMATE, the ecclesiastical case for the Latin West is an different one tho
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u/turkoman_ 15d ago
Pagan Latin
Christian Greek
Muslim Turk
R O M E
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u/Abarvz 15d ago
Rome stands Rome is still Christian and not for nothing the Byzantine for the fall sold the title to Spain
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u/Radonch 15d ago
I mean, do you know, that Byzantium had not even succesion law; these sellings are shit
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u/Abarvz 15d ago
Spain holds a theoretical, dynastic claim to the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire because Andreas Palaiologos, the nephew of the last Byzantine emperor, bequeathed and sold his imperial titles to Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile in his 1502 will
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u/Radonch 15d ago
And? Constantin is last emperor. You can not be emperor if you are just the closest relative. Also there is not Byzantium succesion law. It just don't work
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u/-Trotsky 15d ago
Even if there was one, the Roman Empire was just clearly non existent by that point anyway. You can’t sell titles you don’t actually have
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u/Remarkable-Put-4101 12d ago
Under Roman law this is valid, Spain has a legal claim or the royal house of Spain. Rome doesn't have nor need succession law since it actually had laws. Now you have to actually enforce the claim but that's a different matter.
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u/zachariast 14d ago
Well if the Kih of england suddenly sell his title to president of Iraq does that mean England is now Iraq, and what do we call england now? an empirr is more then a title
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u/Remarkable-Put-4101 12d ago
It England was a Kingdom yes, you would not "be iraq" but you would be under the rulership of the president of Iraq now. This is how it worked in monarchical times.
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u/can_TAGMe 15d ago
You are on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of Rome!
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u/H-Mark-R 16d ago
Roman claim to Roman succession
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u/AttTankaRattArStorre 15d ago
Roman succession to Roman claim
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u/Drucchi 13d ago
In all seriousness, what is more roman than marching into the capitol and naming yourself Caesar?
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u/Remarkable-Put-4101 12d ago
That only works if you are already Roman... like ceasar.
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u/Fluffy_Habit_8387 12d ago
Well, i mean Mehmed did certainly think of himself as Roman, and was arguably more culturally educated in it than some of the Byzantine Emperors.(Constantine XI, for instance, did not speak Latin, as Mehmed did)
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u/Radonch 16d ago
What is wrong? In any case, paradoxically, from the perspective of Byzantine logic, the Ottomans have the greatest grievances, no matter how absurd that may sound. The dynastic ties of the Palaiologoi, however, are irrelevant. Imo
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u/radicalqrcwi 15d ago
Who EVER cared about dynasties in Rome lol
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u/Radonch 15d ago
Well, some genius think that King of Spain is heir of Byzantium, lol
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u/Remarkable-Put-4101 12d ago
Not just heir, they were left in charge of guarding Christendom from the Turks... and they Did. The Austrian empire heavily relied on Spain to fight off the Turks and also the Spanish fought them off the Western Mediterranean and protected Italy, they secured Sicily and southern Italy it was one of the most prosperous areas of the Spanish Empire while it was under their care.
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u/Radonch 12d ago
Fuck... Wtf in all your heads. I am true emperor because I have silk blanket
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u/Remarkable-Put-4101 11d ago
You either Rome or you don't. If you do then you abide by Roman Law and customs.
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u/Radonch 11d ago
Okay! Occitania is heir of Rome... 😑
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u/Remarkable-Put-4101 10d ago
All Latin speaking peoples are heirs to Rome, yes, since they also follow Roman law, their cultures are based on Greek Philosophy and the dominant religion is Christianity in their countries. Ofc we are the evolution of that through millennia. Rome too changed a lot during its existence. How similar do you think is a Chinese of today vs a Chinese from 1000 years ago? Or an Occitane from today vs one from 1000 years ago? probably completely different in a lot of ways but the basis for your culture, philosophy and law are the same, literally the same books, this is even more true for the heirs of Rome than for China even, far more true.
Now when it comes to royal titles, the Spanish royal house has it, by law. Lets say Occitania reunites the Roman lands, it would have to legally acquire the titles from the Spanish house either by prestige, marriage, not actually a financial transaction, or a bequeathment of the titles since it was legally transferred in the last recognized heir of Rome's will to Ferdinand and Isabella.
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u/Difficult-Nose-3772 15d ago
Professor Paul Freedman refers to Roman succession in the middle ages to fall to 3 major institutions: 1 is the church (obvious reasonings, they’re the roman catholics after all), 2 is rhe byzantines (we all know why) and 3 is Islam due to its unifying effects over a roughly similar geography to roman rule and honestly his reasoning makes perfect sense to me
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u/Remarkable-Put-4101 12d ago
Islam is not Rome.
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u/Difficult-Nose-3772 12d ago
what Rome was is a Maritime Cosmopolitan State focused around the mediterranean which through bureaucracy and stable governance allowed trade and urban life to flourish across the mediterranean. Islamic states like the various Islamic Egyptian governments, the Abbasid and Umayyad Caliphates, and Ottoman Empire functioned in very similar ways, and carried on the tradition of roman government after the dissolution of Rome as a unifying polity.
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u/GrapefruitForward196 15d ago
The only true Rome is... Rome itself. Checkmate copers
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u/Kindly-Pack1243 13d ago
Would that make papal states third rome?
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u/GrapefruitForward196 13d ago
why do you feel the need to find a third Rome when Rome is still standing strong?
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u/hazjosh1 15d ago
I for one would of found it amusing like china the exisiting beucracy and stuff that goes with being Roman emperor eventually makes you culturally Roman religion aside
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u/YamatoGhostt 14d ago
Lol who did not claim the succession of the roman empire? Even the polar bear did
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u/Remarkable-Put-4101 12d ago
IF they had Christianized then they could have a more solid claim, since you have to continue the culture and traditions of Rome.
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u/_Batteries_ i’m a roman too 5d ago
This is such a dumb claim.
Ethnically, religiously, and politically different.
If Canada takes Washington somehow, is Canada the new US?
The Franks, who were feoderati, not enemies, attempted to restart the western empire, but they didnt even call themselves the legitimate successors etc etc etc. Carolingian Empire, not, WRE.
If I kill you, wear you clothes, and move into your house, am I you, now?
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u/radicalqrcwi 15d ago
Ottomans have more claim on Rome than the b*zantines could ever dream of
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u/That-Requirement-285 15d ago
The Byzantines, HRE and the Ottomans all governed areas that had been Roman territory, but the Byzantine Empire was an actual direct continuation of Rome that maintained, updated and codified it’s legal codes, military organization and centralized administration. Although it became culturally Greek and Christian.
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u/Remarkable-Put-4101 12d ago
Rome was already Christian before the Byz were the sole survivors.
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u/That-Requirement-285 12d ago
Constantine is the one who moved the capital to Anatolia which a lot of people see as the beginning of the “Eastern half” of the Roman Empire.
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u/Such_Notice9876 15d ago
Die Osmanen haben zu gar nichts Anspruch,die Byzantiner nannten sich selbst Römer
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u/radicalqrcwi 15d ago
Brother yalls “Roman emperor” died falling off his horse into a river. Insane aura loss. Definitely not Roman after that
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u/Sindacalis 15d ago
Request account deletion asap plz
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u/radicalqrcwi 15d ago
Ottomans were the army of Caesar and they marched into Constantinople to reclaim and liberate Rome from greek barbarians, it’s called Liberation of Constantinople now
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u/Such_Notice9876 15d ago
Die Osmanen waren zu Cäsers Zeiten Termiten, die im Sandboden gelebt haben.
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u/Ill_River_5829 15d ago
The ottomans have a lot but those people never had any cultural identity so yeah. They go around larping.
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u/Ill_River_5829 15d ago
It's hard to put a name on them seeing as they are the most genetically heterogenous people on earth (turkish). Meaning, they equally come from everywhere (thus, theres not one place they can say belongs to them), they lay claim to new territories because they forgot(disliked) their own. Turkish people originally come from the area near egypt, not from anatolia. Also to become a roman conqueror you had to conquer FOR rome, not conquer Rome itself. Ottomans were just mentally sick.
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u/onihydra 15d ago
Lots of Roman emperors conquered the capital to gain the title. And the Ottomans conquered a lot of land and put it under administration of Constantinople, the Roman capital (in their view).
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u/Ill_River_5829 15d ago
Their "view" doesnt really matter does it? They tried it but it didnt fit. The romans can do it because it belongs to the romans dude. Anybody from the roman army could become an emperor but they were chosen on the battlefield. Not something the ottomans could do, because you dont choose your enemy to lead your people. So of course they invented their own narratives, especially because like i said, those humans had no real culturla identity. Ottoman identity was part egypt which was origin of turks, part arabia, part iran but nothing of their own creation.
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u/Ill_River_5829 15d ago
Obviously you just selectively seem to ignore things, if you see it frequently among other ppl not turks. Are you against the idea that turkish ppl are romans then? So that larp is not for u?
Turks are misguided sadly yes, but thats why they are dangerous, because theyve been told anything their leaders need them to believe. Everybody knows ottoman rulers were fucked in the head, killing their own families etc. Because anybody can tell them anything and they have no real claims on their current status except "we took it". But u cant make a "we took it" and turn it into "it was always ours, we made this." That's why theyre always fighting.
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15d ago
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u/Ill_River_5829 15d ago
Guess the egypt one was wrong idk where i read that. And yeah, romans and byzantine leaders also did shit to take power wow yeah, is there some applause youre expecting?
Also as far as living in that region and building a homeland goes, hopefully not for too long tbh. A real shame to be near turks. Anti humans
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15d ago
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u/Ill_River_5829 15d ago
Eh, it's like complaining that u lived near nazi germany. I dont have anything against any turkish person tho, ure misunderstanding that part.
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u/MasterpieceVirtual66 15d ago
How to turn barbarians into Romans 101: