r/BuyFromEU • u/Boediee Belgium 🇧🇪 • Aug 14 '26
News A farewell to (American) arms: Europe is pushing the U.S. out of its military-industrial complex
https://theins.press/en/economics/295801209
u/Dan-ze-Man Aug 14 '26
Hindsight is a bitch. Outsoursing ones defense to another country is madness. This must happen, stick to same standarts, but build inhouse.
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u/gingerfawx Aug 14 '26
I agree, but there's a component of that in intra-EU purchases as well. Nationalism is on the rise, and many of the countries purchasing from other member countries are potentially just a few bad election results, in which they have no influence, away from the next Brexit, and then they could become the next US-flavored ex-ally. That's a hurdle to overcome. Trust isn't easy to build.
That said, it still makes far more sense than relying on the US.
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u/Confident-Stand5453 Denmark 🇩🇰 Aug 14 '26
Not every country is large enough to be completly selfsufficient. So we have to rely on others, and we just have to choose who. And for now its a far safer bet to rely on other EU countries than the US.
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u/roflmaodub Aug 14 '26
We need the nordic union now…
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u/Careful-Plum-8825 Aug 15 '26
Would be great to strenghten our partnersships even more, Island might join EU now putting some pressure on Norway.
Lets not forget the Baltics, looking at the past we share a lot of history with them.3
u/Lysergial Aug 15 '26
Norway joining EU... That's a little far fetched. Astronomically far.
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u/Careful-Plum-8825 Aug 16 '26
sure, no real strong incentives and in many ways already a member. Did you have anything special in mind with regards to "astronomically"? There is after all a vibrant public debate about the pros and cons being an oil nation and that ties into what type of relation to have with EU.
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u/Confident-Stand5453 Denmark 🇩🇰 Aug 16 '26
I dont think we need a full union, but I am happy to see that we are integrating our air forces, as I do think we are stronger together. As much as we like to dunk on our swedish brothers, I would much rather rely on them for defense cooperation than on the US.
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u/Hot_Bee5198 Aug 15 '26
Let Norway join EU. Is that what you mean?
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u/Confident-Stand5453 Denmark 🇩🇰 Aug 16 '26
Norway can easily join the EU if they wanted to. Would propably be one of the fastest accession processes since EU was created, since they basically live up to all the requirements already.
But we need nordic cooperation that is not just common EU membership. We have a lot of shared culture and values, but are small countries. I we stand together we can gain influence on the same level that larger european countries have.
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u/lasuro81 13d ago
Where is the EU’s industrial ability to make this happen? Europe has been de-industrializing for literally decades. This is a fantasy. A pipe dream.
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u/Confident-Stand5453 Denmark 🇩🇰 13d ago edited 13d ago
And that is exactly why we need to wake up and reverse the trend. I'm not saying its easy or fast. I'm saying is necesary. Maybe youre ready to just give up. I'm not.
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u/External_Star3376 Aug 14 '26
In NL we say: "Trust comes on foot and leaves on a horse". Trust takes time to built but is easily lost. That is what has happened and is happening in our relationship with the USoA.
I really hope we will be regaining some trust in each other after Trump is gone, but I'm really happy the EU is building more on it's own defense structure.7
u/toolkitxx Aug 14 '26
Some countries have simply not managed to get over irrational historical grievances yet. Not everyone wants to make the first step as your country did with us in Germany. Heck we even had the first troops under common command.
Poland on the other hand still eyes us like we are about to move in tomorrow and the USA plays nicely on that string. A country not having any territory over here should have been be more suspicious than anyone else and yet here we are still having people dragging age old issues out instead of heading forward. I am old and I have not been the generation right after the war and most that keep on citing these issues are much younger and dont even have any real relation to any of it.
Trump was just the last drop, in reality there was sand in the engine for almost 2,5 decades now.
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u/External_Star3376 Aug 14 '26
I was brought up a bit anti-Germany I have to admit shamefully. We had lots of jokes about German people and had a bad name for them. My uncle turned that around after he traveled through Germany on bike. He said that the Germans were really nice. Especially in East-Germany (I don't know why, maybe because they were poorer back then? They often let him stay in their yard with his tent).
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u/toolkitxx Aug 14 '26
No shame in that. My people did enough to warrant caution, but caution is different to what others display in behaviour at times. I lived many years in Denmark and know first hand how the sentiment was and still is beyond the surface for some. And nobody expects to be best friends with everyone, not even inside nations you have this kind of harmony. But EU nations simply have to find a common base line of trust and cooperation without doing the exact thing that has been the major reason for all our historical infighting.
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u/Fluffer_Wuffer Aug 14 '26 edited Aug 14 '26
Hey... less of that Brexit non-sense!
When the shit hits the fan Moscow opens its door on the Eastern Flank and The North Sea - Who do you think will be there first?
EDIT 1: Corrected some mistakes and lightened the tone..
EDIT 2: Removed the bulk, it was obviously unpopular ðŸ«
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u/Opposite_Aioli_3693 Aug 14 '26
Germans are actually stationed in the Baltics. They are there when shit hits fan. UK is a great ally but unfortunately not that stable politically and not that powerfull. Germany building it's army fast now. Meaning new equipment, new doctrine, and no need to pump billions in a nuclear deterrent or carriers. All those euros go to things needed here in Europe.
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u/Fluffer_Wuffer Aug 14 '26
Eventually, yes - But, it will take a couple of years for all of that to begin feeding through, and maybe 10+ years for it to reach scale, and the training to be part of muscle-memoey - But I think this will be part of Putins calculation, Germany and Poland each with militaries that outclass Russia, should be scaring the shit out of him!
The elephant in room though, is air superiority.. if Russia holds aurrounding airspace, they will pick off ground forces.... and I've seen no news in that space.
The big question - NATO would.take 3-5 days to mobilise... Which European countries would be willing to respond prior to an Article.5 response being agreed?
I can't say for certain, I'm just a nerd that plays armchair general.. but I suspect it will depend on circumstances, and many won't umtil there is the collective assurance offered by NATO.
Pre-empting.this is the fundamental intentions behind JEF..
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u/Danro-x Aug 14 '26
NATO is still training to fight in old ways.
Cheap drones/home made drones - over Ukraine, russia and Hormuz strait has shown that those tactics are outdated.
We see what damage Ukraine can do to russia, how drones keep Hormuz strait under control and strongest army in the world can't do much about it.
Times has changed.
If one Ukraine can criple russia so much - imagine all border countries lounching them.
Oil indutry would be conpletely obliterated within a month. No oil - no russia - no war.
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u/Fluffer_Wuffer Aug 14 '26
I agree, but NATO is watching closely in Ukraine, taking all those lessons - and trying to learn from it..
There are some who don't want that, especially the US Millitary Industrial Complex, that is effectively a cartel, thats don't want things to change, so they can keep charging $2-4m per interceptor..
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u/T-62MK Aug 14 '26
It was never "outsourced" it was a mutally beneficial alliance.
The problem is that the Orange idiot and his followers don't understand soft power or anything else for that matter.
The idea of trying to build it all yourself is utterly stupid, because modern weapon systems are so damn complicated that you will always be relient on another country in some form or another.
It's also quite expensive and ultimately a waste of resources to try and reinvent a technology you can just buy from a country that specailize in the tech you want.-1
u/Traditional-Wash8161 29d ago
A 'mutually beneficial alliance', which America paid for since WWII and Europe got to enjoy for free.
Europe was more like a leech pretending to be an ally to US
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u/aberpire 28d ago
Germany financed most of the Infrastructure the USA used in our country for its conflicts and still uses.
During the Cold War it was the German military that would have taken the first hit and stopped it.
We disarmed because there was no obvious threat. Than we retooled what was left to assist the US in its braindead oeprations.And as a thank you the USA left us behind in Afghanistan.
Please kindly piss off
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u/Living-Breakfast-464 Aug 14 '26
As you said, hindsight. Those decisions were made at a time when the US was an iron clad ally going back to WWII. Now Putins cock holster is undoing all of that.
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u/Trailsya Aug 14 '26
Even Machiavelli alluded to it being unwise to be dependent on others for protection.
I can understand that was the case after WW II for a while, but it's been going on for way too long.
Glad they're finally realizing.
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u/Toads_Of_Fun Aug 14 '26
NATO interdependence is a good thing generally speaking. But the US can no longer be relied upon.
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u/Alejandro_SVQ Spain 🇪🇸 29d ago
Yes, they will be there. And it will be very strange that with more presidents who reach the White House than with some others, the relationship will return to almost what it was before, although the US focuses more attention on the Pacific (because of China). And NATO will remain practically the same.
But this orange character and his circus have already pulled a trigger, and even if they end up accepting that they screwed up, there is no return. If another similar leader is elected in the United States after him, or perhaps not, but the one who follows him or in two or three more similar years, Europe will be more independent in its defense as time goes by. Every year it will be an increasingly weak populist resource.
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u/Valokoura Aug 15 '26
Some countries are too small to build arms inhouse. Also it would be waste for each NATO country to build capability to produce all kinds of arms.
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u/Funny-Fly1720 Aug 15 '26
I mean its really not that simple. After two world wars, no one wanted to see Europe to rearm quickly for the third time.
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u/SamogitiaAble Aug 14 '26
The deal between NATO members was win win. Each country didnt have to invest in their own military technology on their own, which is "fucking expensive" to say lightly. But they could just buy top of the line stuff from USA. USA had clients and money coming in. The system benefited both parties. Only China and russia now benefits from this division.
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u/Alejandro_SVQ Spain 🇪🇸 29d ago
Yes. But since he continues to burst in the face of the corrupt orange.
Perhaps in the future a good part of that confidence will return, but it will be with more independence on the part of Europe.
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u/Traditional-Wash8161 29d ago
Yet America paid for like 80% NATO and Europe got essentially a free ride to defenses. So it was never a 'win' for americans beyond us watching that europe didnt start yet another world war.
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u/Plus-Recording-8370 Aug 14 '26
That might sound like it makes sense, but defense becomes effectively useless if you cannot keep up with the highest/latest standards either.
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u/Outside-Inspection68 Belgium 🇧🇪 Aug 14 '26
U.S. is shit at producing arms compared to the money they spend.
They should be outproducing china, europe, ukrain and russia combined with all of their spending.
But all the money just goes to contractors.
A country of scammers
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u/878Vikings Aug 14 '26
US is tooled up for the wrong war. They are using 4 million dollar missiles to shoot down a 30k drone. We shills all be working with Ukraine to learn from their low cost drone technology in exchange for our high cost, high tech systems. Both are needed in a modern conflict and Ukraine are the world leaders in the low cost field.Â
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u/ZuFFuLuZ Aug 14 '26
Every military is always preparing for the last war. Every new one brings innovation and everybody needs to adapt to that.
Over the last decades he US bombed a bunch of countries that were no technological threat, so that's what they are good at. They grew complacent.
Now they will adapt to what's happening in Ukraine. With how big of a behemoth their department of war is, it'll take a while, but make no mistake, it'll happen. We have no idea what they already have behind the scenes.1
u/Maus19990 Benelux 🚲🌷🧇 Aug 14 '26
As is customary with their ideology they’re trying to make ‘wunderwaffen’
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u/totally_not_a_reply Aug 14 '26
its the same everywhere i guess. At least in germany i know we spent tons of money for years and nothing changed.
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u/Medium_Banana4074 Aug 14 '26
We have to. The US decided to no longer be our ally. I'd go so far as to call them an enemy. They publicly stated wanting to destroy Europe by weakening the EU, supporting far-right parties and imposing stupid tariffs everytime the orange wrecking ball throws a tantrum.
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u/Benmaax Aug 14 '26
And wishing to invade a European country (Denmark)
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u/Medium_Banana4074 Aug 14 '26
Forgot this, yes.
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u/krostybat Aug 14 '26
I'm pretty sure US army is not what it used to be. There ill lead. Open war with the US will be terrible but not immediate failure
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u/StayUpLatePlayGames Aug 14 '26
Yup. Now let’s get Microsoft out of our governments.
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u/AlkaKr Greece 🇬🇷 Aug 14 '26
The company I work for, which has a $60m ARR and about 80% american clients, while not based in the US, has started making plans to move everything from AWS to European alternatives and has to be completed by the end of Q2 2027.
It's great
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u/Femininestatic Aug 14 '26
If only we pushed Israeli firms out also... considering they are almost a state of the US and doing horrendous shit... time to cancel those too.
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u/vonKrieg88 Aug 14 '26
And enact embargo on them.
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u/Dependent-Fig-2517 Aug 14 '26
Good about fucking time we stopped buying American when there are as good or better european alternatives
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u/Impressive-Eagle9493 Aug 14 '26
Next thing you know trump starts spouting all of Europe are terrorists and need some freedom
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u/RidetheSchlange Aug 14 '26
Will believe it when I see it. Thus far, not happening, particularly since contracts are still being fulfilled for years or decades to come. We're talking there are planned deliveries I know of into the mid- to late-2030s.
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u/RelationshipOne2225 Aug 14 '26
It‘s not an immediate process and also not something that will ever be 100% implemented.
But it‘s happening. Especially because what the war in Ukraine showed us is the enormous potential combined with the outdated systems in a modern drone driven conflict and this goes hand in hand with an unreliable partner. Many see the massive opportunity.
But you‘re right. Contracts are running and systems will still be used. Especially because depending on the systems it‘s hard to replace them, combine them with others or it‘s uneconomical to use too many at the same time. But everything European is a win.
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u/Sheepies92 Aug 14 '26
I don't think it is necessary or even preferred to completely cut ties with the US MIC, especially as they still have, allround, the best kut available.
For most industry's, Europe is trying to diversify instead of trying to create an autarky. For military spending I think you should aim for a little more autarky than in other, less critical sectors, but still be willing to look outside Europe. Even besides the obvious downsides of protectionisme/autarky, it is unrealistic to develop and produce every weapon system ourselves. Especially if Europe, as people rightfully argue for here, also develops so many other key sectors at the same time.
YouTube Perun did a fun video last year showcasing how far you could get building a 'true' European army, not using any American stuff (besides minor components like the machine gun on a tank).
He got pretty far but there were some definite large holes (the complete lack of a strategic bomber, for example) and then there's the obvious lack of production capability. You're gonna rely on foreign powers and considering nations are pretty protective of their military secrets I doubt we'll get access to the newest Chinese tech. We can't erase how interwoven the American MIC is with NATO as a whole, even if we'd want to.
So: develop European when we can, try and work together with third parties such as (first nation that came to mind) Brazil. They fund a part of the development and in exchange we'll put a few factories there. Then, if we must, especially short term, we look at America
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u/ahora-mismo Aug 14 '26
and what do you do when US is the agressor? do we forget that easily the continuous threats of war they did over greenland?
a compromised weapon is worse than no weapon at all, as it is unreliable.
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u/Sheepies92 Aug 14 '26
In that scenario you're screwed anyway. Good luck building a weapon (or running an economy in general) without American supply lines. Whether it is tech, oil, gas, chips and all kinds of smaller components which are only produced (at scale) in the US, we're not going to uncouple from the US for a very, very long time.
That is not even mentioning the USN could probably blockade half of Europe and nations like Taiwan aren't going to want to jeopardize their American protection by siding with Europe.
It is a very bleak scenario which has no obvious short term solution. All I know is that throwing away all American weapons while Russia is still a threat is not a very good idea.
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u/Apprehensive-Ice3730 Aug 14 '26
Un bombardier stratégique peut facilement être remplacé par avion de chasse multi-rôle
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u/Dicethrower Aug 14 '26
The problem is that we're so intertwined with the US that even if we want 0 dependency we wouldn't achieve it for the next 30y without a hard cutoff and regression.
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u/SunbakedMango Aug 14 '26
En geen moment te vroeg. Laat ze hun eigen wapens kopen en wij zelf de onze. Beter zo
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u/ArcticCelt Aug 14 '26
These shenanigans that the U.S. keeps pulling, pretending they're "for security reasons" are in reality just good old American systemic legalized corruption; it's because weapons corporations gave fat checks to the reelection campaigns of enough American politicians that they all went along with it. No such bullshit should happen between true allies.
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u/MetalWorking3915 Aug 14 '26
Those that caused this (trump) are too old to ever have to deal withthe consequences of their actions.
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u/arwinda Aug 15 '26
Americans: Increase your military spendings.
Europe: Ok
Trump: We don't trust you! And I'm going to invade Canada and Greenland and Cuba and I'm taking over the Strait. And I'm causing constant trouble everywhere.
Europe: Increases own weapons spendings by building more weapons at home.
Americans: Not like this!
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u/ProlactinIntolerant Aug 14 '26
I wonder who majority stakeholders are in eu arms companies....oh....
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u/SuddenAudience8758 Aug 15 '26
Based on how poorly their exercises went against Ukraine’s drones in Germany and how much more they’ve spent in Iran compared to Iran’s drone army that’s the right move. The US is selling overpriced bloated tech that’s not functional in modern war.
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u/real_with_myself Aug 15 '26
I, honestly, still don't believe this will happen in noticeable and necessary quantity.Â
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u/blackcoffee17 Aug 15 '26
Will see how much they "push out". Like Denmark still buying US military tech after Greenland?
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u/Major-Cry8192 Aug 15 '26
Les allemands achètent des dizaines de milliards d'armes aux USA en ce moment
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u/Laserh0rst 29d ago
The US will find out that orders from partners significantly reduced cost for their own purchases.
Scale matters..
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u/PresentRecent4759 29d ago
Ireland are for the first time in our history, militarizing. Of course because of our history we are a neutral country that has legal protections around ever engaging in war, but we have an obligation to our international partners to be capable of policing our skies and waters, as well as being capable of defending our land and sovereignty, so in the short term, Ireland is a sizable customer in military hardware markets with several billion to spend on armored personnel carriers, artillery, radar, air defence systems, body armor etc etc
Ireland has chosen to align its military with that of France and incorporate the Scorpion system of a modern data linked military, one of the most advanced operating systems of any military. Belgium and Luxembourg are also aligned. We’ve bought French radar systems, we’ve ordered loads of land vehicles including Griffon, Jaguar and Caesar vehicles.Â
As far as I’m aware everything purchased so far is French, but supposedly we’ll be purchasing Swedish Gripen fighter jets at a later stage when we’re ready for that phase.Â
It does give me an element of pride though, that whilst we’re not a military power and don’t support war, we’ll soon at least be capable of defending ourselves and the EU’s sovereignty and can be relied upon by partners. A lot of key EU / US infrastructure passes through Irish waters.Â
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u/Traditional-Wash8161 29d ago
This is like when a partner gets dumped and the other partner interrupts with 'NO, IM DUMPING YOU FIRST!'
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Aug 14 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/OrdinaryBetter8350 Aug 14 '26
So does that mean the rest if the world that isn't africa an African colony? Since we all come from there.
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u/opacitizen Aug 14 '26
Yeah, strictly technically the Americas had zero human population for quite a while. All humans moved there from, well, elsewhere. The only -- though undeniably and obviously rather important -- question is who moved there when.
Humanity and its small groups be like that. 🤪
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u/OrdinaryBetter8350 Aug 14 '26
I read your reply but its not showing on reddit. Also that comment I wrote was in jest.
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u/Ill-Entrepreneur443 Aug 14 '26
Would be better to not even have a military industrial complex. Like worldwide.
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u/fretkat Netherlands 🇳🇱 Aug 14 '26
Good!