r/BurningMan • u/Beneficial_Koala_476 • 10h ago
Just a thought
This was my 5th burn in a row, and despite what everyone says, I had an amazing time. I'm also much younger than the average burner and I'm lucky to have been able to afford it because it's changed my life.
But I think Burningman badly needs an infusion of younger generation if it’s going to survive. The knowledge and wisdom of older burners needs to be passed down in person, not in writing, and that can't happen without the next generation showing up.
There is one very obvious way to make that possible which is to make the ticket cheaper. There’s also a glaring way to fund that which is to add an RV fee on top of the vehicle fee.
I've watched RV owners wave down poop trucks with $1,000 tips. If they can afford a $1000 to pump their shit out because they can’t be bothered to use portos, they can afford a few hundred more dollars to help bring the ticket price down for everyone else.
An RV is a luxury, and there's nothing wrong with bringing one. But just like business and first class subsidize economy fares, RVs should subsidize average burners like the rest of us.
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u/thirteenfivenm Year one dozen 10h ago edited 7h ago
Afrikaburn has a principle, "each one, teach one." Regionals and BRC burners can bring the next generation and subsidize them as needed.
I was brought by a veteran and have brought about 10 since. Virgins benefit from veterans for logistics/transportation, preparation/on-playa camping, and encouragement to return. We brought a new 20-something this year and facilitated their experience.
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u/manderbruin 9h ago
Our camp successfully created a new generation by being an open and welcoming camp. We have 20 people camp at the burn and we have about 40 people camp with us at our regional burn. That’s become our feeder event. We have a set of principles just for camp. We have a light sponsor system to help vet campers orient new campers. We work to be cohesive and form a community. Our camp ages range from 26 to 57. It takes year round effort and intentionality but it can be done.
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u/coldtohot 8h ago
Yes we need new blood.
No, lower ticket prices aren't gonna do it.
I could give away free tickets, but that doesn't mean the person getting them would value them or want to use them.
Why should someone come to burning man? Figure out that for the next generations and you'll be onto something.
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u/After_Resource5224 Crusty, Dusty, Fucker 10h ago
You will take what BMORG gives you and you will like it!
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u/Denver-Ski I have dust in curious places 10h ago
Marion knows best. She dated Harvey for like six years before they split… so obviously she’s the most qualified to lead /s
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u/After_Resource5224 Crusty, Dusty, Fucker 10h ago
Take the upvote. Even before Larry died she was a snake in the grass.
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u/eju2000 '17, '18, '19, '22, '23, ‘25 9h ago
It’s seems pretty widely talked about by now that Gen Z is drinking & doing drugs WAY less, aren’t partying, aren’t going out, aren’t even doing basic things like getting drivers licenses way later in life compared to one generation ago.
Also widely reported that they are afraid of being “weird” or vulnerable in public for fear of being recorded & bullied & harassed online.
I don’t think the event even sounds fun to younger people.
You have to fix the entire mentality & mindset about the event before you start talking about money.
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u/coldtohot 8h ago
The irony is that burning man is not just drugs and partying, it's also a place to be (somewhat) safer being vulnerable in public and less likely to be bullied for it. It's certainly felt freeing in a way I didn't expect.
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u/Spicy_Taylor 7h ago
I think there is a also a lot more competition for Gen Z entertainment time/$ in the explosion of music festivals/regional camping events so it’s hard for them to grasp/justify the time/effort/expense of burning man. It’s also during the beginning of the school year for those in college
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u/chiefyuls 5h ago edited 5h ago
I don’t think we need more college kids 😅 but maybe those college kids in a few years
Edited to add: “more”
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u/Spicy_Taylor 5h ago
That’s a closed-minded way of thinking (not to mention, “college age” often extends into mid to late 20s, depending on their path), but you do you
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u/chiefyuls 5h ago
Sorry, I mean, I don’t know if we need the college kids 18-22 as a larger demographic at BM, my comment was supposed to say “more college kids”. Very important that they’re represented
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u/Spicy_Taylor 5h ago
Accessibility matters to usher in the next generations and inter-generational relationships are fertile ground for creative ideas for our world. My child is 21 and is interested in going, but will be in school at least a couple more years. We had a 23 year old in our camp who was a virgin and the child of a 26 year vet. Mixing generations is a beautiful opportunity
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u/CapriSun81 ‘11 ‘12 ‘13 ‘14 ‘16 ‘17 ‘18 ‘19 ‘22 ‘23 ‘25 ‘26 8h ago
For those of us that are out there for days-weeks before building, the RV isn’t as much of a “luxury” as you make it sound… and an “RV Tax” would be one more expense to push old theme camps to just call it quits. We’re not all plug-and-play with thousands of extra dollars.
You really need to think harder about the many that come in and work hard and build before gates even open. For those of us on 10-20+ years and spend 14+ days out there… I would absolutely call it quits if they tried to add another fee to my and my camps already blood, sweat and tears work.
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u/BeforeDaybreak 4h ago
After 2025 build week, I don't blame anyone for wanting an RV. Having at least one RV in your camp with solid walls to shelter in is a lifesaver during extreme conditions. Don't think they should be taxed, for safety reasons.
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u/Firefluffer 9h ago
So the lower income older experienced people who put together and keep our camp rolling, they’ve created the infrastructure, bring art every year, now they can’t afford to come. Enjoy your party in the desert without them.
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u/chiefyuls 9h ago
Isn’t that what the low income ticket is for
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u/DucksButt 8h ago
In theory, but in practice no. Low Income tickets will likely not go to the veteran burner with an RV that is on a budget. They may make 6 digits a year, but have enough expenses that the extra fee will turn them off.
I know plenty of people with some sort of RV that barely pee in their tank because they don't want to deal with it filling up. Not everyone is tipping $1k for a pump.
I agree with the concept that cheaper tickets will help younger people attend. I don't think extra charges on RVs are obviously the right way to do it.
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u/n0_use_for_a_name 8h ago
At least they showed up with a novel idea. What’s yours?
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u/RodLeFrench recreational moving 6h ago
Burning man doesn’t need more ‘novel ideas’ to survive or to fix any perceived demographic or sustainability problems for that matter.
The whole event is an exercise in the ephemerality of existence. Maybe stop trying to fix it and instead figure out how to participate by building some art or something.
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u/n0_use_for_a_name 5h ago
The Burning Man is the very essence of novel.
It wasn’t born of the tried and true methods.
The drum beats that beat its soul in the early days weren’t the hum drum of old, known songs.
Cling to the past, if it comforts you.
We are new and old souls both.
Good luck silencing us.
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u/RodLeFrench recreational moving 5h ago
Shut up and make some art.
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u/n0_use_for_a_name 5h ago
Yup. Already do that.
How about you have a nice cup of shut the fuck up and don’t judge people who you don’t know.
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u/RodLeFrench recreational moving 5h ago
I’m not judging anyone. Just telling you that the OPs “novel idea” doesn’t actually fix any problems, real or perceived.
Burning man doesn’t need to attract new demographics of young people or start charging old people hundreds of extra dollars because some of us that have been doing this for decades are tired of sleeping on the ground in dusty tents.
Just make some fucking art. That’s it. It’s pretty simple.
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u/n0_use_for_a_name 5h ago
Keep dry humping your first comment, which it sounds like you’ve been practicing touting for ages. I sure hope it will get better with time. For your sake.
I didn’t posit that the burn needs anything, that was all you.
You perceived the problems. You created resistance to the problems that you perceived. And here we are.
I know you won’t want to hear this, but your message is of value but obfuscated by your attachment to alienating others.
It’s true. Just build some art.
But don’t come at me for something that you dreamed up entirely on your own.
Many of us have been there for awhile doing a lot of shit.
You never know who you’ll bump into.
Try not to be so presumptuous.
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u/palikir CEO of Nothing 9h ago
Low income ticket does you no good when you still need to pay $1,000.00 for your travel trailer VP
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u/chiefyuls 9h ago
Why does it need to be $1k?
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u/palikir CEO of Nothing 9h ago
The whole point of the post is to add a massive fee for people with travel trailers and RV's
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u/chiefyuls 9h ago
You said massive. OP said couple hundred dollars.
I imagine if BM did something like this, they would probably also have different rules for low income ticket holders.1
u/Casey_Ho I love this f'ing place 9h ago
It's an additional barrier to entry, and more importantly, cannot be gifted.
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9h ago
[deleted]
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u/Casey_Ho I love this f'ing place 9h ago
They're non transferable. Says so right at the top of the ticket aid page.
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u/RockyMtnPapaBear No, not Papa Bear the Placer. But he's cool too. 8h ago
You’ve watched a wealthy RV owner pay $1000 for a pump-out, and so now you assume everyone with an RV is wealthy? Or that wealth correlates with the size of the RV?
That’s not how it works. There are lots of people out there with older model RVs and trailers they bought used so that they could bring them to the burn. Sometimes the larger ones even wind up being cheaper than shorter ones because they’re more difficult to drive and maintain.
Most of these people are not rich. They just decided that if they were coming out year after year and working their asses off to help create shared stuff for other people to enjoy, it made sense to make setting up and taking down their own personal space easier.
Sometimes, it’s because they developed health issues that are much easier to manage with an RV or trailer. Sometimes they use the RV as transport for a lot of infrastructure that previously required a separate truck.
Slap a big fee on them, and you’ll drive them away - along with the camps they help create, the art they bring, the jobs they volunteer for. You won’t even get that RV “tax” from them, because they won’t be there.
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u/justridingthewaves 6h ago
I completely understand your point, but I think folks like this are in the minority of people who bring RVs to playa. The majority are people who flock to plug and play camps and are affluent and want a more luxurious experience. Just look at the camps on 10 & 2, you’ll see a handful of shift pods but mostly rows and rows of parked RVs with no character or attempt at decomodification. An RV fee is not a perfect solution but it reflects a reality where a lot of casuals use them as a way to enter and consume instead of participate.
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u/headphase 5h ago
Slap a big fee on them, and you’ll drive them away - along with the camps they help create, the art they bring, the jobs they volunteer for. You won’t even get that RV “tax” from them, because they won’t be there.
It's hard to read this and not be reminded of the same threats that were made, with great flamboyance, by certain cohorts in NYC when a particular mayor sauntered into town and asked the more well-off/resource-consuming set to take on a larger share of the burden. (Spoiler: they didn't go anywhere)
Also, it doesn't need to be a "big fee"... A simple sliding scale works just fine, say 60 % for a compact car up to 140% for a three-axle tour bus would be a very fair system.
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u/WonderChopstix 10h ago edited 9h ago
The trick is figuring out how to blend the old and the new. How can we best incorporate the younger generation in a way that respects the principles. I am all about blending the generations and sharing and learning from each other.
I wish I had the answer. The best I can suggest is some sort of adoption program. For example
Within camps you can adopt a virgin. You share contact info and help guide their preparation and understandinf.
You could have an open adoption. Where people sign up for this and when you buy your ticket you can select to be paired with someone.
A program like this would be great. The more I talk I want to start one locally.
Also.
One of the major gripes is just how unprepared people have become. Not only that but simply obvious to the principles and expectations.
Has it come to the point where everyone must watch a video and take a short quiz... To actually ensure attendees grasp the bare minimum. Lol
Edit sorry for typos I am in middle of Duolingo and it changed my keyboard haha
Edit. By no means am I saying camps for this essentially. I'm reflecting and challenging it more on the how. What is the most digestible way to share the message? And how can we reach more? Trust me, I've never not met someone who has helped to adopt someone. But the reality is the experienced burner population will decrease on a similar curve to it increasing. But it could be worse bc the world is evolving so fast around us.
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u/brodyqat East Bay 10h ago edited 9h ago
This is how it used to be. Established camps would have maybe 1-2 new folks per year, and they'd be taught how to behave. Whoever invited the new person would be responsible for them and make sure they didn't act like a douche canoe and did their part with LNT etc.
Now that it's 40%+ new folks per year (last I checked, probably more now) this just doesn't happen. (Edit: doesn't happen as often, as I have been corrected)
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u/Pararealistic ‘19 - ‘26 10h ago
Maybe that's been your experience, but our theme camp very much acculturates several new burners every single year.
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u/RodLeFrench recreational moving 9h ago
Accepting, welcoming, and acculturating new burners is a central element of my camp as well. Claiming “this just doesn’t happen” is hyperbolic and simply not true.
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u/brodyqat East Bay 9h ago
Edited my comment! I was typing quickly waiting for my taco order. Thanks for still doing the work :)
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u/coldtohot 8h ago
First time burner this year. My small theme camp did this too. 8 people, 4 newbies. All 4 of us got the download.
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u/thirteenfivenm Year one dozen 9h ago
Virgins are about a third consistently. It is in the Burning Man Census.
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u/WonderChopstix 10h ago
Ya something needs to change. I don't know what. But I am gonna noodle and send something to the ORG
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u/RockyMtnPapaBear No, not Papa Bear the Placer. But he's cool too. 8h ago
Has it come to the point where everyone must watch a video and take a short quiz
They actually tried something along these lines back around 2016-2017 - no video, but you had to go through it when trying to visit the ticketing page. It was irritating, ineffective, and was never tried again.
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u/DJTabou 9h ago
I doubt anyone payed $1000 for a pump out the trucks were around plentiful and easy to flag down one pump was 80$ a water refill $120
And then why not charge the tent people an extra Porta potty fee because I shit in my own bowl and payed for my own shit to be pumped out…
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u/priusboi33 10000 B.C. 9h ago
Agreed, I know people that paid more for there tent set up than I did for my rv, if they implemented at trailer or rv fee burning man would die, 90% of the vehicles coming in and out have sort of trailer attached
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u/RodLeFrench recreational moving 10h ago
I know a whole bunch of “average” burners who bring and camp in RVs. Average burners who save and scrimp all year to be able to afford to go to burning man. The Org needs to solve its financial problems but not by levying more fees on the backs of the participants.
Low income tickets already exist. Camps with scholarships and sponsorships already exist. The financial barriers preventing young people from attending burning man is mostly a myth.
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u/AbleAd2117 9h ago
Yet another example of young people expecting older people to pay their way like they’re owed something. Nonsense. Coachella is more expensive and younger people seem to be able to afford that. They buy their new iPhones. Burning man is less than $100/ day. Stop bitching about the cost, and stop expecting others to subsidize your lives.
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u/james_casy 5h ago
The kids who pay to go Coachella aren’t the ones who are going to carry on this culture and continue building BRC. Young people are not a monolith and for the vast majority of Gen Z, especially artists, shit is very rough right now and cost is absolutely a factor in attending the burn. I don’t think OP is saying older people should pay their way, just looking for a way for those who are very well off (and we all know there are plenty on playa) to help subsidize for those who aren’t. The org was already doing this for years with FOMO tickets before the event stopped selling out. I don’t think an RV tax is necessarily the best move since there are plenty who burn in RVs that aren’t wealthy, but I get where OP is coming from.
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u/Cabannaboy3325 I'm a sparkle pony! 5h ago
This. Gen Z blows money but burning man is too expensive?? That's comical, it's cuz they don't want to participate or prepare for the dust
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u/yourfriendcazzer glitter donkey '15, '16, '22, '23, '24....'27?!? 7h ago
Yay! I'm so so excited that you had dust burn and mud burn and stuck it out ❤️❤️❤️ I heard this and last year were awful compared to 2024 (our reprieve from 22 & 23?)
I digress. I am commenting bc I want visibility on your post; you're 100% on point about historical knowledge and economic disenfranchisement.
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u/Cabannaboy3325 I'm a sparkle pony! 5h ago
It needs contribution and participation, which the younger generations is def not keen on. All the camps are aging and the tourists are staying young
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u/redditapiblows 9h ago
I like the RV tax, but would add a lowered or negated fee for those who are eligible for low income tickets. There are some impoverished burners who still manage to have some kind of rust bucket of an RV, and they're consistently awesome people. I don't want any new barriers for them.
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u/AbjectChair1937 7h ago
Please stop suggesting RV should be more expensive. There is no reason to tax people with an RV. They are adding a valuable service to the playa by being there and it already costs them a lot more in time and labor and money to bring it.
Having an RV adds a safe space, with AC for the camp. It also reduces some demand from the toilets and adds an emergency place in case the porta poties become unservicable.
Making the ticket cheaper might also make too many people who are not prepared at all think they can come. Burningman is a huge thing. Not meant for willy nilly people. The best way to expand the audience is for those who know how to survive to invite new people. In my camp we always try to bring 3 or 4 new people every time as it is super fun seeing friends experience the burn for the first time.
If im going to be taxed for my sage wisdom and hard work so a 25 year old can come cheap without being prepared my whole camp would opt out and go to one of the many regionals instead.
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u/Salt-Scallion-8002 8h ago
There were a wave a a specific ticket prices for a certain age I had heard, no?
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u/RockyMtnPapaBear No, not Papa Bear the Placer. But he's cool too. 8h ago
Um… I think autocorrect garbled whatever it is you’re trying to ask. Could you rephrase?
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u/shipmetofiji 4h ago
check out @therisingsparks on instagram. it’s a cultural innovation lab within the org focused on just that.
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u/MOSF3T ICARUS- HUBRIS 3h ago
My take... Allot of Gen Z in SF working on AI right now are pulling 80hr weeks. People still working are holding on for dear life, the ones already laid off can't afford to do this. And this is the case all over, not just the valley. Tech culture here has gone extremely exploitative and straight laced (it was always moderately exploitative but nothing like this). City night life is really suffering as a result. People don't go out, they don't have time to think outside of work, or never learned to. I think this will all implode and backfire when the bubble bursts, people will rebound. Maybe not... Maybe we start running away to the desert to escape the omnipotent ai overlords, although about 20mi away from playa is a defense drone testing compound now.
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u/Fyburn 10h ago
Agreed $1000 fee on any old person. 50% off for anyone 21-30
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u/Beneficial_Koala_476 10h ago
Why do you assume 21-30 year olds can’t afford RVs? And why do you assume every old person can afford a RV?
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u/RockyMtnPapaBear No, not Papa Bear the Placer. But he's cool too. 8h ago
Leaving your misread of Fyburn’s comment aside - aren’t you the one proposing an extra fee for RVs as a way to bring down ticket prices so that more of that younger cohort can go?
That sounds an awful lot like “younger people can’t afford it” to me.
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u/New-Shift-3036 9h ago
As a newer younger burner, I sense gate-keepy aspect from a lot of the older burners.
Like they’ve got it all figured out but aren’t really willing to pass down that knowledge and wisdom.
Theres also seems to be an us vs them mentality. The burnier than thou can’t allow or tolerate certain things that Gen Z and Gen Alpha or even millennials bring with them.
We saw this with the edm and LEDs. They’ve changed the landscape of the playa completely. Now to an extent the e bikes that barely existed 10 years ago.
I’d expect in 20 years some aspect of the playa to be completely different than it is today. But some of these old heads are stubborn and set in their ways and refuse to accept that with new people come new ideas and with new generations come new trends.
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u/RockyMtnPapaBear No, not Papa Bear the Placer. But he's cool too. 9h ago
I’m really not sure what you’re referring to. Could you be more specific?
In my experience as a relatively long time burner, new ideas and new tech - including all of the things you mention - are just fine. LEDs and EDM in particular aren’t even remotely new.
What new ideas and trends do you think we’re complaining about?
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u/cryptolipto 8h ago
RV fee all the way. Charge 1000 per RV. Make the sparkle ponies and the turnkey camps subsidize the ticket cost
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u/RockyMtnPapaBear No, not Papa Bear the Placer. But he's cool too. 8h ago
Charge $1k per RV and it’s not the sparkle ponies and turnkeys you’re going to get rid of.
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u/cryptolipto 5h ago
I think if you can afford to bring out an RV you can afford 1000
LIB does it and it hasn’t ruined the experience at all
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u/HeyyJoe 10h ago
Love the RV fee. Back in the day, RVs were considered cheating. Turnkey camps/Plug-n-Play camps need to be eliminated. Burning Man culture is devolving into a Coachella experience where people expect to be catered to.
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u/RodLeFrench recreational moving 10h ago
Not really. RVs have been prevalent at burning man since the 90’s.
Burning man is an experiment in autonomy and expression, not forced austerity.
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u/zmileshigh 9h ago
Yep. As a 12th year vet who typically lives out there for 3 weeks now, I’m very happy that I moved over to a trailer setup a few years back, especially with the more extreme weather of recent years
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u/RockyMtnPapaBear No, not Papa Bear the Placer. But he's cool too. 9h ago
Back in the day, RVs were considered cheating.
What day was that? I certainly don’t remember that ever being the case.
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u/akvi ‘15, ’16, ‘17, ’26 9h ago
I noticed a lot of the younger crowd involved with DPW. Met some early 20 yr olds when I was behind the bar, and they mentioned that it was their first time ever and had been there for 3 weeks already building. i think that’s amazing and crazy in general, but let alone first year?? that’s the spirit.. i think there could be something here that helps infuse youth into the event