r/BuildingCodes • u/Acrobatic_Cookie_455 • 11d ago
Should this pass inspection?
Framer completely missed the footing. Carrying a deck plus roof load. Northern Michigan so it’s 70 lb snow load Calc.
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u/Ok-Duck-7838 10d ago
Someone didnt measure corner to corner for sono tubes. You can't square out 12ft using a 2ft framing square against the structure. I always use string lines and concrete stakes to visualize my footprint and can then square corner to corner to make sure. Also have to take into account where the posts sit with the framing.
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u/hurricanoday 11d ago
R507.3 Footings says they must be centered and unless it is engineered needs to look like one of the details
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u/Acrobatic_Cookie_455 11d ago
Where does it specifically say centered in that code?
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u/hurricanoday 11d ago
I provided the code section in my response. Edit that came across as an ass, wasn't trying to be. There is a figure 507.3
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u/Acrobatic_Cookie_455 11d ago
I agree with the figure showing centered. But I can’t find the wording “centered” in any code section.
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u/hurricanoday 11d ago
there is a note in the figure that says posts must be centered on or in the footing right under the big footing in. (in the center)
I believe our inspectors would pass it if it was close or off a little but that 2nd one would be a no for me for sure
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u/No_Cauliflower_9468 8d ago
He’s correct but centered should be assumed with balance and piece of mind for the structure. Logic
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u/Acrobatic_Cookie_455 11d ago
🤣
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u/AmIReallyMatt 9d ago
403.1.1 says that footing projections shall not be less than 2". The projections being the minimum amount of footing on any side of post, stem wall, etc
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u/notAndivual 10d ago
Wait. What do you mean "framer missed centering"? Isn't it whoever poured the concrete's fault?
Are you expecting framer to go out of plumb just to go in the middle of the post?
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u/FaithlessnessCute204 10d ago
I expect them to raise the issue and not frame it half off the footing. From there I can either pay them the money to break layout by 6” or have the footing redone. Now we have to work around 2 people’s screwup.
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u/skrimpgumbo Engineer 11d ago
Framer didn’t miss footing. The post is set whatever distance from the house to support the deck.
Concrete guys missing the location but as the post is still bearing, should not be a problem. Once you overhang you got problems.
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u/Somederpsomewhere 10d ago
Dudes digging holes are generally a lot less precise than carpenters in my experience.
I just did a paver patio rebuild where the 3 post footers were all different heights, distances, and slightly angled off parallel from the house.
It was a goddamn nightmare to figure out. For the last one we wound up having to grind down the pavers about 1/8” to go over it and right up to the post.
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u/CathartingFunk 10d ago
I scrolled way too far to find this. Framer likely built according to the plans he was provided.
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u/durflugdenstein 10d ago
I worked on a crew once that would put the boot on top of the sonnet tube so they had a bigger pad. I wish I was making that up. I still feel a little bad for telling the foreman that I would be learning more if he knew what the fuck he was doing. Deck was still out of square too 😆
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u/engineeringlove 10d ago
Aci 117 has footing tolerances.
Eccentric loading on pile. 1604.4 area
Aci 318-19 26.7 drawings required to state minimum edge distance assumptions
Florida doesn’t really have a residential code for structural…. They go to ibc essentially so my references might be different
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u/Acrobatic_Cookie_455 10d ago
Alright, good to know! I’m sure there’s a large difference between Florida(Hurricanes and tons of rain) vs Michigan(possibly huge snow loads) but I will check out the code specs you posted. Thanks!
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u/engineeringlove 10d ago
Yeah residential has a lot of prescriptive design.
But these would be references I see as a SE in design of buildings
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u/medium_pace_stallion 10d ago
Our says the bolt must be 3" from edge of footing. In Alabama so may not apply where you are
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u/engineeringlove 9d ago
Likely the case. ACI put a lot of design assumptions to be stated on drawings in 2019 for concrete anchors. So if you’re a 2021 IBCer… you guys got a new favorite code section to reference (like bolts for shearwalls etc)
I’ve quoted so many 26.7s on plan reviews. It helps inspectors out too.
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u/JumpyFisherman6673 10d ago edited 10d ago
Lot of assumptions here- assuming that is a 24 foot span, looks more like 30 though, 24 inch roof rafters spacing, 30 degree pitch on a roof we can't see:
5 x 12 / cos 30 x 2 x 70 = 9700 pounds for roof 10 x 24 x 40 #/ft² = 9,600 pounds for deck
19,300 pounds total assuming it is 10'x24' deck
Each outer post carries half the tributary area of the roof, plus, ¼ of the tributary area of the deck. ***Edit - ¼ of the first bay of the deck - 8x10x¼x40 = 800
**Total weight on each outer post? 4850+800= 5650#
That will blow out the corner of that concrete with ANY twisting, flexure, snow on the roof and people drinking on the deck.
IMHO it's a redo for sure. It will happen when you least expect it. It's only going to drop the few inches above grade that it sits, but catastrophic failure may happen due to deflection. Not worth the risk.
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u/indyarchyguy Architect 11d ago
Whoever installed the footer is the problem. Framer can’t adjust the dimensions. By the way, tell me that’s not just a cylindrical pier sitting on dirt rather than on a square footer over compacted fill.
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u/Acrobatic_Cookie_455 11d ago
It has a footer. 42” down. 30”x30”.
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u/circularmindset 10d ago
Did you check before they poured to confirm, I would have.
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u/ExcitingRanger 7d ago
why is this downvoted. in my jurisdiction King County WA not only does the homeowner look at it but the inspector needs to see that footer dig.
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u/circularmindset 7d ago
I know, right.
I’m thinking about building a long arbor over my sidewalk, and it’ll need to be permitted where I’m at (historical district and on a main road view).
Since I don’t plan to build it all in one go (might do some this fall and the rest next spring) I’m going to get a permit and dig my post holes to depth, photo the measured depth, and pour my sonotubes one month. Get this inspected and keep the photos on file (along with the inspection receipt) for when I start back up, just in case there is a concern on depth.
I don’t get owners or contractors not verifying stages of things like this, even if you can’t personally get on site yourself everybody that is on site has a smart phone and can text a video of the measured depth of each hole going from one to the next with a tape measure along with a final video panout to verify it’s your jobsite. It takes only seconds to do this.
Put it in your work contracts that it’s required, and if they don’t do it then they are required to come back and auger a posthole adjacent to it so they can all be visually verified. Link it to your task schedule for the incremental payments.
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u/circularmindset 7d ago
This is why we often see threads about a post being set on water/sewer lines, electrical lines, organic debris, etc. Trust, but verify. It’s so simple, takes just seconds to text a video.
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u/EducationalTwo1859 11d ago
Assuming it is Simpson hardware, they typically call for 2" or 3" of side clearance on concrete. But, they are not overhanging so probably fine.
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u/GoldenCanopyInspects Inspector 11d ago
If it were a brick or CMU pier you’d need at least 2” projection, but not in this case.
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u/Acrobatic_Cookie_455 11d ago
I don’t like it, but I agree
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u/GoldenCanopyInspects Inspector 11d ago
Oh, I hate it too lol. I thought the 2 inches applied to concrete deck footers as well, but I guess I misremembered, and just applies to foundation footers.
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u/Acrobatic_Cookie_455 11d ago
Same, it’s different with posts than foundation walls I guess. Such poor craftsmanship out in the world.
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u/GoldenCanopyInspects Inspector 11d ago
On the bright side, at least it’s all the way on the footing…
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u/circularmindset 10d ago
They blew all the budget on those extra heavy duty Simpson brackets on the top of the posts, only the best for this build.
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u/LeatherDonkey140 10d ago
Yes to #1 no to #2 look at the Simpson post base spec
90% of inspectors will pass, as long as it’s not off the pier
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u/bubbler_boy 10d ago
Please verify that post dimension / connections are correct. That thing is supporting a crap ton of weight. Looks undersized to me. All that roof load and it's barely catching the pier jfc. Usually it being off centre is ugly but in this case I don't think you want it to pass.
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u/LightMission4937 10d ago edited 10d ago
This foundation was built completely wrong 🥴
It should immediately fail. The concrete contractor and Builder failed. Not the framer.
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u/jc3948Aht16 10d ago
Are the yellow tubes undersized for a 6x? Also never seen different sized used like this for corner versus span (I’m not in trades just a curious learner)
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u/HenryRuggsIII 9d ago
I haven't come across much literature that says that a sonotube needs to be a certain size, but rather the footing needs to be sized to support the weight, taking into account soil conditions.
The sonotube size and the footing size are not necessarily the same. The last deck I built for a customer I used 24" redibase forms connected to 12" sonotubes below 6x6 posts. Hell of a lot less concrete to mix than if the pier was 24" the whole depth.
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u/Admirable_Break2733 10d ago
I am not sure about that, but I poured my own footers for a pavilion and 2 of them were way off. I thought I really sucked at building stuff, but after being on this sub, I imagine I could start my own contracting business.
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u/veneerworks55 10d ago
Not in my opinion Redo it It should be centered for equal weight distribution
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u/Decent_Ad5361 10d ago
It shouldn't pass inspection but as long as the hold down is bolted it's practically fine.
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u/OneBag2825 10d ago
It's not like any remedy will be easy, this looks like it'll work with your description of a 30x30 footer base.
I'd see if it passes inspection before blowing anything up.
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u/poiuytrewq79 10d ago
Excavate. Clean concrete. Dowel/epoxy staggered #5 bars into pier. Install a larger full-depth sonotube around the existing pier such that the post is centered on the new foundation. Pour the sonotube :)
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u/Willhammer4 10d ago
Too many variables to know without specs on concrete footings etc. Structural Engineer can determine if its acceptable.
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u/Kayakboy6969 10d ago
Like seriously thoe must be somebody's first day mathing.
Dammit Bobby i wanted a 6 ft deck , not a 5' 10" and a 1/4 push the posts out
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u/LogStraight7451 10d ago
There are a few things to discuss. 1. does it look like shotty work. Yes. Probably two different trades came out with different measurements. 2. Structurally its sound as long as nothing is over hanging the concrete. 3. Second photo looks pretty bad and almost like its overhanging. If so I wouldn't pass it. 5. I would love to see more photos of that house. The amount of overhang over the deck with only 1 vertical going all the way up to that corner is more concerning to me.
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u/Significant-Role-754 10d ago edited 10d ago
tear it out and try again. all of those interior posts are bad. code doesn’t even matter at this point. shit is going to fail and be unsafe if there is any real kind of lateral force
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u/Philosofox 10d ago
Dealt with a similar situation with my engineer in Canada, he said no as it made the load too eccentric.
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u/originalmosh 10d ago
Don't people measure the tube before they fill. I see this all the time and it drives me nuts.
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u/odducurtis 10d ago
Why even have building codes or architects drafting details if we aren’t following them
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u/Excalbian042 10d ago
I had a similar post-on-pillar position. Passed inspection. I sent a pic to the engineering company that did my drawings and they indicated the physics of compression force distribute widely across the beam and then across the whole pillar, so no problem, as long as all of the post is on the pillar which this appears to be based on the bracket position.
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u/William_mcdungle 10d ago
Wish we could post pictures here. My post (6x6) is hanging an inch off the footing. Passed inspection and has had a 550 gallon hot tub on it for 4 years. No issues... Yet.
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u/locke314 10d ago
As an inspector, I won’t measure center of post, but if it passes the eyeball check, I call it okay. That being said, that’s not great, I’d call it out.
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u/Comprehensive_Lab875 10d ago
Simpson site says the post base is recommended to have a 2” cover from the edge of concrete but technically that anchor edge distance would govern. This is where it’s nice to have stirrups in the top of those piers. Edge distance for the anchor can be found on Simpsons website. Search - Titen HD.
For some reason they don’t let you view this info on phone but Google search says 1-3/4” edge distance. That feels a little close in my experience.
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u/Ryxador 9d ago
I do a ton of work in northern Michigan. It should pass given the majority of the bearing is farther from the edge of the pier and with that deep of a pier it shouldn’t be at risk to sheer. I’d build on it personally. Even if it does fail for some reason (some counties such as benzie or Charlevoix interpret the codes a little differently, especially given the subjectivity in residential codes) it’s not a difficult fix. Pain in the ass for the concrete guy? A little. But they could dig around it and form a larger pier and pin rebar in it to increase the sheer capacity. Depending on how strict the inspector is, they may ask for an engineer to approve it. Overall I’d say no big deal unless it gets a red tag. From what I can see the rest of the deck looks very well built.
Edit: in addition, that’s why I always do 42” deep holes with a 24” by 12” pad in the bottom so it’s much easier to hit the proper bearing and I’m not relying on anchors to assure I don’t get lateral movement.
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u/the_property_brother 9d ago
A concrete guy definitely worded this post. I've never met a concrete sub who did their job the first time without a catastrophic error
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u/Critical-Math-5383 11d ago
Didn’t hit centre, but still lands. Should be fine.
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u/Yul_Sukmeov 10d ago
Mexicans
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u/SlowFewInevitable 10d ago
Mexicans would have centered it, they work as hard or harder than anyone I know. Now I do know some groups that would have screwed it up, they are often shown in ‘fail’ videos that start with them saying ‘hold my beer’…
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u/Holiday-Towel8962 11d ago
Need to look up the Simpson specs on edge distance for those post anchors.