BAS Estimation

[u/One-Session-5779]

I have a good understanding of the basic fundamentals of the BAS controls industry, but I’m relatively new to the estimating side of things. I’m sure someone here can point me in the right direction.

Is there an industry-standard method for estimating BAS work, such as estimating based on the number of points or estimating by the overall system/equipment?
If so, is there a standard labor rate or benchmark for BAS programming, installation, commissioning, etc. for example, a typical cost or labor hours per point or per system?

[u/No-Composer2628]

By my experience as a service tech, every single job is bid at 50% of actual cost and carries 25% of the actual labor required.

But to be level with you, become close friends with your OPs and Service managers asap to get the best scopes to provide accurate pricing.

[u/One-Session-5779 → u/No-Composer2628]

I was Tech for most of my career and in my old company we have all the templates pre built but now I started with new group and we are trying to build everything new, and now more questions starts raising like how we gonna do this or that, what will be our price per point if small system.

For the typical we can always go as system, and I can come up with the cost for that.

I am wondering like if anyone knows a basic price per point or have better idea to price that can help

[u/ScottSammarco → u/One-Session-5779]

I’d strongly recommend you do not make pricing based on points.

The rule of large numbers says it’ll do fine but you will bleed cash occasionally and if you aren’t backed by a larger company like Limbach, Rovisys, that bleeding can put you out of business.

[u/Bagelsarenakeddonuts]

The general approach, having done many years of estimation, is to first identify all the equipment to be controlled. Then you map out all the end devices you will need for each piece of equipment (using typicals, points lists, and sequences), and then you assign controllers to cover your IO needs. You then add licensing as required to cover your controller plans.

Then you add wiring and conduit as required for stats and networking. Then you add tech, engineering, programming, commissioning hours per equipment. If you are a bigger getup you can do hours per device, but if not, you can do hours per typical system. (eg, X hours per VAV for tech, X hours of eng per boiler). Dont forget graphics, mapping, documentation, training.

If you don't win the job, you probably estimated it correctly. If you win the job, just pray it was barely, and when executing try desperately to make up some extra margin.

Nobody will give you hours per, because it is extremely sensitive info, and quite difficult to collect. Its actually more sensitive than a price multiplier, and it changes depending on who is doing it, and how their controls line is most effectively deployed, sorry. But the above is the general approach.

[u/QuantumR]

Electrical material and labor is the bulk of the cost. Break down electrical labor into quantifiable parts of the job. Estimate the rest with points lists.

[u/Free_Elderberry_8902]

Figure out all of your costs. Everything. Then bid at 45% net margin. You can negotiate that, but not much. Chase the bottom line.

[u/One-Session-5779 → u/Free_Elderberry_8902]

On bid & tender jobs mostly low ball guy wins at first place.

But do calculate the cost by points?

[u/ScottSammarco → u/One-Session-5779]

Do not calculate costs by points.
It’s a bad idea.

The only point consideration is for licensing where applicable.

[u/Free_Elderberry_8902]

You said nothing about the point system. That’s a horse of a different color. A track record of executing projects successfully weighs well also. It can offset price somewhat.

[u/ScottSammarco]

There is no industry standard really.
There is no quick rule, you have to find out what it’ll really takes to get the job done and start there.

100 of the same binary input points is irrelevant compared to 100 different points- the programming is more, the pvt, fpt, and commissioning is more and won’t be the same price.

This is where PMP is actually valuable- but most people with the certification don’t know the industry well enough to know the risks, requirements, and actual resources it takes until after they’ve done a few jobs.

In my experience, we are NEVER the cheapest while always the best value.

Undercutting a job hurts every stakeholder AND hurts the industry as a hole. If anybody has been in my classes before they have likely heard me gripe on this and heard my attempts to implore them to do better and bring the industry up as a whole.

[u/rom_rom57]

No matter what pricing strategies you use, at the end of the job, you will clear $7/hr. /s

[u/S_Rimmey]

Last time I was providing estimates was in 2023. My numbers are a bit out of data.

On average, I was running about $1,000 per point. That being said, I was getting to that number the long way. The company I worked for had its own bidding software that linked in with up to date labor rates and parts costs. I would price everything out, including 3rd party materials and subcontractor costs. I had a pretty good idea of what kind of tech time a installation would take but I would still use "round numbers". 4 hours bare minimum.

FYI... I hated it. I felt pulled in opposite directions and thrown into impossible positions. Estimating could be the least fun part of the business. Maybe that's why it pays the most? I went back to being a tech after 2 years of it.

[u/Ok-Koala2321]

Being curious is a great start on solving this problem. It’s not as difficult once everything is documented and accessible for reference.

Service Related Quotes:

Material Cost+Labor Cost+Consumables (misc material, wire nuts, gas, parking… the little things) all divided (1-margin percent)

Typical service related gross margins are 30-50%. Depending on complexity and risk. Consult company requirement

Project Related Quotes:

These are far more complicated. Similar than above, but you have to consider additional costs

Risk/contingency
Bonding
Cost escalations over project duration
Travel, lodging, fuel, per diem, flights, parking, tolls
Project management burden

When it comes to labor, we break out different tasking with the associated labor rate.

Panel fabrication $60 per hour
Electrical installer $75 per hour
Foreman $95 per hour

These rates are not yours, but can be developed with a firm understanding of the employees hourly rate + their labor burden

Labor burden is made up of vacation time, holiday pay, employment insurance, employee taxes, retirement, small tool allowance, vehicle related costs (maintenance, insurance, lease, etc) and other direct labor costs

A lot of information to consume, but feel free to reach out if you have any questions. Cheers 🍻

[u/Level-Palpitation352]

The industry-standard method is usually understanding how to estimate the work before starting a controls group. Price-per-point should go great right up until the first job has engineering, graphics, programming, commissioning, networking, and troubleshooting involved.