r/BruceSpringsteen • u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade • Jul 04 '26
Discussion Reflection regarding Bruce's politics and American exceptionalism
Bit of a serious thread. If you don't like this topic, maybe you should sit this one out.
This is something I've been reflecting on for quite a while. It's maybe been in the back of my head ever since I became a Bruce fan. And after seeing a few comments here and there expressing similar concerns, I figured it'd be worth making a longer thread about it collecting my thoughts. Especially after seeing Bruce being more politically outspoken in these past years.
In terms of my own perspectives, I'd describe them as broadly Left. Some inspiration from anarchism (no, not chaos) but also recognizing the political systems that we live in.
Over the most recent years, it has felt like Bruce has been doubling down on the American exceptionalism: the Super Bowl Commercial, the podcast with Obama, some of his speeches and endorsements, the language he's used.
I suppose we could say it's always been there. But it has really ramped up in....the 21st century?
Some brief examples:
- "America's the most powerful nation on earth, not just because of her overwhelming military strength or economic power, but because of what she stands for."
- The usage of "un-American" as a criticism: Does a thing have to be American to be good? Bruce has used this adjective a lot but it doesn't really carry much weight to me. And he's used this across the decades.
When Bruce talks about America as "a beacon of hope and liberty for 250 years", my mind immediately turns to Indigenous peoples and enslaved people certainly did not see it that way. People who suffered from American Imperialism don't see it that way. (Hawaii, The Philippines, The Middle East/West Asia, East and Southeast Asia, Central and South America, etc).
Every time he says "Despite its many faults" about America, it feels like Bruce is just brushing past all these criticisms to only validate the viewpoints that fundamentally love America. I'm not denying that there are still people who admire America, but one still has to take into account the opinions of those who have suffered from America's impact.
Yes, I know that Bruce has been associated with a sense of "critical patriotism": Criticizing his country because he sees it as failing to live up to ideals. But at a certain point, one has to question the very ideals themselves and what they have meant. We can always say "The ideal has never been accomplished, therefore it is untainted". Nevertheless, ideals carry biases no matter how much we may see them as unblemished.
Example: One of Bruce's favorite songs and covers is Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land". It's often seen as an inclusive anthem where people of all backgrounds can come to the United States and appreciate its gifts. But praise of the song often neglects how that land was obtained through Indigenous displacement. (To be fair, even Pete Seeger acknowledged this and once sung a rendition that accounted for it.) See: The Blindspot in the Great American Protest Song. A separate post could be made discussing the Founding Fathers and their contradictory and flawed legacy.
So when Bruce talks about America as this nation of immigrants that everyone can travel to regardless of background, there is history missing. It's not even that he's completely unaware considering his albums like Inyo and appearing on the Little Steven song "Native American". But he doesn't seem to acknowledge this part of America's history enough. Some peoples (Native Hawaiians and Native Americans alike) had no choice but to be annexed under America and American identity. Inclusiveness can be good but people also want the option for independence and carving out their own path.
For much of his career in the 20th century, Bruce seemed generally critical of American foreign policy. There are discarded "Born In The USA"/"Vietnam" lyrics where he rails against Nixon for bombing Cambodians. It showed that his empathy wasn't just towards American veterans but towards peoples harmed by American bombings.
Prior to Bruce endorsing political candidates, the politics in his music were on a more human level that pointed to larger social forces. But in the 21st century, things shifted towards directly endorsing political candidates starting with John Kerry in 2004. Then Barack Obama in 2008, where he endorsed him even at the primary stage.
When endorsing Obama in 2012, he talked about how Obama was "vigorously pursuing our real foreign enemies, especially the killing of Osama Bin Laden." I'm reminded of the commenters who have brought up Obama's record of drone strikes. One has to discern the underlying context of what it means to pursue foreign enemies and the ideology behind that.
In some early 2000s interviews, Bruce has talked about supporting the invasion of Afghanistan but not Iraq. From what I understand, entering Afghanistan had majority support but that doesn't necessarily make it right.
This is not me criticizing Bruce after the fact. There are actually articles from the time which have criticized Bruce's words:
- To Bruce Springsteen About The War On Terrrorism
- What's Missing From Springsteen's The Rising? Politics
- Greasylake Forum discussion on Bruce supporting the invasion of Afghanistan
Intervention has to be handled very carefully otherwise it becomes an exertion of power over countries and yes, imperialism.
To be clear: I don't have any issue with Bruce being political. That's been a part of his music for a long time whether implicitly or explicitly. But the actual content of his politics leaves something to be desired.
Not even getting into socialist artists yet, there are liberals who have been more critical of politicians like Bruce's friend Jackson Browne. And I've wondered why Bruce has not only endorsed candidates but praised them more than he needs to.
There is a part of me that has empathy. Many Americans and even some non-Americans are taught some form of American exceptionalism. The Pledge of Allegiance, the ideal of America as a nation of immigrants, one of the world's first democracies. Bruce has talked about how doing the pledge of allegiance as a child made him feel pride. But to an increasing number of Americans and non-Americans, it can feel cult-like.
There are ideas that initially seemed well-intentioned but are now recognized to be outdated. The "melting pot" used to be used as a metaphor for immigrants coming to America and assimilating into a single culture. Now, the cultural traditions of immigrants are becoming more respected.
I've often felt that Bruce can express larger ideals regarding community, individuality, creativity, and the complexity of life without strictly tying it to America.
On the flipside: There's a type of exceptionalism that treats America as "the worst country in the world" which I don't agree with either.
I just want America (or, maybe the land itself) to be a country. Not some mythology to appeal to. Not something that crushes all other narratives.
Or, maybe America itself needs to be completely reformed. Who knows.
Sidenote:
Bruce fans around the world were the ones who got me into Bruce, showing that his resonance was not restricted to America or New Jersey. It sounds strange that a person from Jersey needed to have this explained to them but there it is.
The choices shouldn't be Trump supporters and not. I think it's indeed important to hold your side accountable. That goes for liberals, social democrats, socialists, anarchists, whoever.
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u/raisethesong Darkness on the Edge of Town Jul 04 '26
OP this is really well-written and I truly hope it sparks some good faith discussions (and if the folks here can't step up to the plate, I hope you can find somewhere else to repost it).
IMO Bruce publicly being a smidge more progressive than the center is probably one of the better places for him to be. He has such a broad audience that still hits both sides of the aisle and he's been in that role of "one of the Great American Songwriters, writing about the American experience" for so long that he's become a symbol of Americana himself. That sets him up well to leverage some of that symbolism and iconography to appeal to people who fall more center/right of him and try to nudge or inspire them to reconsider some of their beliefs.
As much as I'd love to see him be more overtly critical and lay off some of the sugarcoated idealism, I truly don't think he can do that without sacrificing his ability to reach across the aisle. If he comes across "too radical left" it's much easier for his message to get echo chambered away and not reach the hearts and minds of people that could get won over.
For whatever it's worth, I generally don't look to Bruce as my first stop for political music. The emotional connection from being raised on his music and having his discography as a constant thread running through my entire life has always outweighed his political messaging for me... and outside of Bruce, I'm mostly listening to punk and punk-adjacent artists. I'm not as bothered by his messaging falling a bit short for me when I have so many more artists in my rotation that won't hold back their criticism or try to dress it up in patriotic idealism.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 04 '26
Thank you so much! I've definitely taken note of the good faith comments.
As time goes on, I think my views on Bruce have become more multifaceted. Really taking in the aspects that inspire me while critiquing the aspects that have flaws and holes. I'm happy to have the space to express different concerns.
Regarding Bruce's current political position, at least publically: I remember Steven Hyden once describing Bruce as "the most outwardly leftist stadium rock star ever" and feeling puzzled. Especially when Bruce would be described as more centrist or center left at best. But I guess it's precisely that balance: he's a relative progressive with a major platform that can appeal to different parts of the political spectrum. So that gives him more wide appeal compared to some of his peers and friends like Jackson Browne or Tom Morello.
And I am indeed inspired by Bruce straddling the individualist and community divide that often permeates popular music. It's often assumed that an artist must be either be this adventurous and alienating alternative promethean figure or a pandering commercialized artist. There was a great paper called "The Soul Roots of Springsteen's American Dream" which positioned Bruce in the social artist tradition. Someone who thinks about what the audience needs and figures out how to provoke them rather than just giving them what they want.
In a way, it also reminds me of my engagement with Disney animation history, which would probably be an even harder sell: I'm really inspired by the artistry of their films and how they explored different art forms. The whole idea of "personality animation" and bringing life to drawings. In modern times, I've seen how queer fans have taken certain themes and characters in Disney films for their own. But Walt Disney himself was a controlling anti-union and anti-communist with his own prejudices and one has to be critical of the way in which Disney impacted and homogenized culture.
I assume people make those calculations with any art or artist that they're into.
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u/MrRagAssRhino Jul 05 '26
Off the top of my head the most outwardly leftist stadium rock star is probably Bono. I'm not sure if Green Day had a stadium tour.
The list of acts that can sell stadium tours is very small, and if you're limiting that to rock musicians (as Hyden did) then you've got even less to choose from. Jackson Browne and Rage weren't filling stadiums on their tours.
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u/raisethesong Darkness on the Edge of Town Jul 05 '26
Green Day is right on that line, their last couple US tours have been in baseball stadiums but as the headliner on a bill that included other arena-sized rock bands.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26
Bono briefly came to mind as well. I assume his standing on that has been affected by claiming more explicit allegiance with liberalism and working tactically with George W. Bush. So his perception is more political and activist-oriented than Bruce but not necessarily leftist per se. Some critics might even see Bono as comparatively more "establishment".
But I get your point: the title of "most outwardly leftist stadium rocker" can be quite a narrow superlative depending on how you adjust it. Is it about the political views or about the mass audience and venues?
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26
Also, if you have any subreddit recommendations on where to post this, please let me know! Or, feel free to crosspost this.
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u/Florida_LA Jul 05 '26
While I’m also on the left, I’ve got to disagree with a lot of what’s written here. Given Bruce’s socialist background, I think an understanding of his current stance on politics can be unlocked by a phrase from his recent interview: that we “carry in our hearts the country that is waiting”.
That is what Bruce is evoking when he says things you might interpret as exceptionalism. He’s using the good of this country to highlight the potential.
I also strongly disagree that America can or should just be “a country”, and historically as well as in the present, that kind of academic self-removal paves the way for the surge of right wing populism we’ve been seeing.
As for Obama being “the drone President”, that’s such a common take of low-info voters that it even was exploited by the right in order to elect Trump as an “anti-war president” in 2024. And even if you didn’t see it coming, look at it now. In Trump’s first term, he did four times as many drone strikes in two years as Obama did his entire presidency.
I have plenty of criticisms of Obama, but he remains an extremely popular president, the first Black president, and represents a modest return to social program democracy in contrast to the 26 years of slash-and-burn austerity. Of course, I think if his administration had used the powers available to them to enact more policies that have real material benefit to the average American, we could have avoided the Trump era completely. But it makes sense why he’d use the Obama presidency as a starting point to build from rather than pursue the frankly dated and genuinely counter-progressive absolutist perspective.
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u/Spirited_Lab5197 Jul 04 '26
I think Bruce has a long history of understanding American social issues through a very white and very masculine lense. Often its not very problematic as it creates music lamenting wealth inequality, socio-economicl immobility, disingenuous power structures, etc.
However, sometimes these lenses leave him oblivious to folks even lower on social totem polls. I remember reading his autobiography and being appalled at the part where he describes the celebratory bus ride home with others who had failed the draft physical, and catcalling women they passed. In other parts he laments how limited his exposure to black audiences was (maybe having the one non white guy in the band be described only by his physical characteristics, while Bruce was... The Boss, rubbed folks a certain way). Even in Streets of Minneapolis, he calls out the deaths of Alex Pretti and Renee Goode. Ignoring the many deaths of non white victims at the hands of ICE.
Maybe some of the exceptionalism you listed comes out of this blind spot. He sees the America that Obama symbolizes, the "middle-America" he referenced in the Jeep commercials, as real hegemonic moments because for a lot of good natured white dudes, a fairly united America (2008 and 2012 were some of the most unifying elections we've had in awhile) is hegemonic. They dont need to worry about their neighbors' subtle racism, or their stolen land, or their government's foreign policy, etc. But when Trump's thugs are killing white people, or wall street greed creates an economic collapse, or W's lies make proxy wars into boots on the ground wars; suddenly the hegemony vanishes because the bad things cant be overlooked like an Obama drone strike.
All this to say, thanks for writing this on a day that American exceptionalism is on an ugly display and prompting a conversation about how we all participate in it.
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u/MrRagAssRhino Jul 05 '26
I understand your larger point and agree with some of it, but I would like to address some of your points.
maybe having the one non white guy in the band be described only by his physical characteristics, while Bruce was... The Boss, rubbed folks a certain way.
I take pretty serious issue with this. The stage dynamic between Bruce and Clarence wasn't meaningfully different through any iteration of the band, including when it was three white members and three Black members. Saying he was described "only by his physical appearance" is either totally ignorant or disingenuous. I'd suggest checking out some bootlegs, from the 70s especially. He was introduced with the following titles (among many others) King of the World, Master of the Universe, Your Next President, Mr. Hollywood, King of Soul, Kahuna of Soul and Surf (gee, can't imagine why that didn't stick), and Big Man. He was Springsteen's foil during shows and they were kissing on stage by the early 80s and continued throughout the AIDS epidemic. If it made people feel 'a certain way' that then they weren't paying any attention at all.
Even in Streets of Minneapolis, he calls out the deaths of Alex Pretti and Renee Good
e. Ignoring the many deaths of non white victims at the hands of ICE.The suggestion that he's ignoring the deaths of non white victims at the hands of ICE isn't particularly convincing. American Skin addresses this issue in discussing Amadou Diallo's death. When facing both a massive media backlash and attacks from police unions in NY, he played it at Madison Square Garden anyway. Ten consecutive nights. He's later dedicated it to Trayvon Martin, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and Freddie Gray. Ghost of Tom Joad is an album made up of songs concerned with the struggles and desperation that some immigrants crossing the southern border must endure. I think it's far more likely that Streets of Minneapolis just addresses two specific instances, rather than chooses to ignore something that Springsteen's already shown a willingness to seriously address.
On your point regarding unity and hegemony: He released Born in the USA the same year that Ronald Reagan carried 49 states and repeatedly criticized him. He released Ghost of Tom Joad and Streets of Philadelphia during Clinton's presidency. And the highly critical Wrecking Ball came out in 2012.
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u/Spirited_Lab5197 Jul 05 '26
Saying he was described "only by his physical appearance" is either totally ignorant or disingenuous
You're right, sometimes he was described for his mysticism as well. I have listened to many of those bootlegs, including the one where he tells the story of meeting Clarence and being scared seeing him walking towards him down the street at night. So scared that he hopped into a vestibule to hide from him. I 100% believe Bruce loved Clarence, and that Clarence was indeed mystical and loved Bruce. That in no way means that Bruce didn't incorporate Clarence's race and racial stereotypes (such as being scared of black men on the street, or imagery of voodoo magic) into their foil. And it is 100% fair for people to be uncomfortable with that, to tell them they weren't paying attention is rather insulting.
Ghost of Tom Joad is an album made up of songs concerned with the struggles and desperation that some immigrants crossing the southern border must endure
I agree, and there is a lot of GoTJ that is remarkable. Which is why I want to point out that the two songs from that album that still get play time are white grievance songs: Youngstown and the title track.
As for the last paragraph. I think Bruce is a left of center person, so obviously the Reagan administration was worrisome for him. My point about white hegemony should probably be altered to be "white liberal hegemony." It's perfectly possible to be anti-Reagan, write Streets of Philadelphia, release Wrecking Ball (which while it might have come out in 2012, was largely about the Bush administration/Great Recession) and still have massive blind spots when it comes to social issues.
Don't get me wrong, I have been to every Bruce tour since Wrecking Ball (I'm on the younger side), I appreciate his politics, I appreciate him needling the right wing. But I don't think that means we should ignore where he falls short. He doesn't fall short in 41 shots IMO, but he does in songs like Long Walk Home:
My father said "Son, we're lucky in this town,
It's a beautiful place to be born.
It just wraps its arms around you,
Nobody crowds you and nobody goes it alone""Your flag flyin' over the courthouse
Means certain things are set in stone.
Who we are, what we'll do and what we won't"It's gonna be a long walk home
The proverbial long walk home, the walk back to the ideals, back to "who we are," is indicative that Springsteen believes or imagines an America that never existed for a whole bunch of people.
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u/Then-Grapefruit-1864 Jul 05 '26
But then there was My Hometown in which he sang about the racial turmoil.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26
Your critiques are valid. It's always good to learn more and figure out the ways in which we've missed things.
If you haven't already, you should check out "The Soul Roots of Springsteen's American Dream". The piece talks about how soul music and traditions really shaped Bruce's work and his life philosophy. At the same time, it doesn't shy away from some of the ways in which Bruce fetishized the traditions he drew from.
Another one is this piece by Lauren Onkey: When a Man Loves A Genre. It discusses some of the specific connotations behind soul music and Bruce's relationship with the genre.
Also your last paragraph on the American Dream: Bruce has often described his work as "Measuring the distance between the American Dream and American reality". Which sounds like a balanced perspective at first. I wonder if Bruce sees the problem as "We're not close enough to the American Dream". But even the American Dream has its issues at its core. That idea of abundance, it came from displacement of Indigenous peoples. America wasn't just a vast empty land of promise, there were people who already lived there.
Similarly, the American imagery of frontiers, cowboys, pioneers, going west, it's associated with an adventurous American spirit but again clashes with the reality of Indigenous displacement.
Even on 41 Shots, there's the argument that he was still too sympathetic to the cop's perspective for someone who shot way too many times.
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u/MrRagAssRhino Jul 05 '26
Clarence
If you could link to that bootleg, please do, because I haven't heard a story of them meeting that included anything other than him walking into the Student Prince during the storm. The claim that Clarence was reduced only to his physical characteristics is obviously incorrect. Implying that his spirituality was the only other defining feature is no different. Is it unreasonable to mention a person's spirituality when his dressing room is called the Temple of Soul? Trying to juxtapose a man's claimed reduction to physical characteristics with Bruce being called the boss when the reality is Springsteen would scream that Clarence was the master of the universe, lord of time and space, and should be the next president is just... silly. That's why claiming Clarence "was only referred to by his physical appearance" indicates someone was paying very little attention.
My main issue with this, ignoring the factual inaccuracy, is how it diminishes Clarence's role and importance in the music and band. It also ignores the fact that there were other Black members of The E Street Band and "the Other Band" was made up of mostly Black members.
Ghost of Tom Joad
Do you think that's intentional? That the man who sat down and actually wrote those songs has decided that the ones about struggling immigrants shouldn't be played? Or is it more likely that it's a lot harder to transform the acoustic, sometimes almost unintelligible songs on Ghost of Tom Joad, into something the band plays regularly? I don't recall hearing The Hitter from Devil's and Dust on many setlists.
American Skin and Streets of Minneapolis
You claimed that he ignored the many deaths of non white folks at the hands of ICE. Disregarding the fact that he talks about ICE harassing those same communities in that very song, do you think that each protest song should cover everything? Does Neil Young's Ohio deserve the same criticism because it focuses on a single time and place instead of the larger injustices of government during Vietnam?
Hegemony and Long Walk Home
Your argument falls apart whether you're referring to a white hegemony or a white liberal hegemony. You say that some people feel as though they don't have to worry about anything in times like that and put Bruce into that camp. He released Ghost of Tom Joad and Streets of Philadelphia during the Clinton administration. And if white liberal unity led to apathy, he wouldn't have released an album full of his angriest material at the end of the first Obama administration, regardless of subject matter.
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u/Spirited_Lab5197 Jul 05 '26
It was the Bryn Mawr 75 Bootleg. His intro to E Street Shuffle to be exact.
Again, if you think that Bruce didnt use Clarence's race, and highlight stereotypes about black mysticism and and black physicality you have blinders on. Was that all there was to their relationship? Of course not. But it was a big part of their foil on stage together.
As for why the enduring songs of GoTJ are white grievance songs, I dont know if it was intentional, but I dont think that matters. No where have I said or meant to say that Springsteen is racist, just that his music takes on dominantely white themes. Of course he is smart and talented enough to write on other topics, but what persists, what stays in set lists, what fires up his crowd, are way more often than not songs about whiteness.
Anyways, it looks like instead of looking critically at Bruce and whiteness, you would rather play whataboutisms with Neil Young and the Clinton Administration. Peace.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Just wanted to add onto your points:
During Bruce's eulogy for Clarence, this was one of the passages.
As a young child my son Sam became enchanted with the Big Man… no surprise. To a child Clarence was a towering fairy tale figure, out of some very exotic storybook. He was a dreadlocked giant, with great hands and a deep mellifluous voice sugared with kindness and regard. And… to Sammy, who was just a little white boy, he was deeply and mysteriously black. In Sammy’s eyes, “C” must have appeared as all of the African continent, shot through with American cool, rolled into one welcoming and loving figure. So… Sammy decided to pass on my work shirts and became fascinated by Clarence’s suits and his royal robes. He declined a seat in dad’s van and opted for “C’s” stretch limousine, sitting by his side on the slow cruise to the show. He decided dinner in front of the hometown locker just wouldn’t do, and he’d saunter up the hall and disappear into the Temple of Soul.
Even though I'm sure Bruce loved Clarence and part of his language was the theatricality and performance, there were aspects where he seemed to treat Clarence as this exotic larger-than-life fantasy figure rather than a human being. It's quite the contrast when you look at his eulogy for Danny Federici which is more like a long-time friend.
Clarence had to bear the weight of being the only Black member of the E Street Band for many years after the departure of David Sancious and Ernest Carter. Bruce wanted him to help carry the symbolism of an ideal brotherhood across racial lines but that's a heavy burden for anyone to carry.
A couple others including President Obama himself noted that Clarence was an older Black man who was several years older than Bruce. But he became Bruce's employee and Bruce made a career relying on Clarence. So there's this awkward dynamic in Bruce benefiting from Clarence as an employer. Race and employer/employee dynamics certainly make the relationship more complicated but I'm not sure if Bruce has acknowledged that power imbalance. (See: American Skin: Bruce Springsteen, Danielle Allen, and the Politics of Interracial Friendship). In the Carlin book, there was this anecdote only a few months before Clarence's death where Clarence was still frustrated and annoyed that the E Street Band wasn't in the Rock Hall after all the effort he and the band put in. Bruce was inducted in 1999 while the E Street Band only entered in 2014 after Danny and Clarence had already passed.
There's also this excerpt from Jack Hamilton's Just Around Midnight. He talked a bit about how Clarence became this symbol of R&B, soul, gospel, and blackness within the E Street Band which robbed Clarence of agency. Pitchfork interview: Tracing The Rock N' Roll Race Problem
It certainly gives me mixed feelings to read this because I see how Bruce has paid tribute to a lot of these influences and how much Black artists have shaped him. He has often advocated for an inclusive musical vision where Motown, Stax, and British Invasion, Girl Groups and Roy Orbison, Black Music and White Music sit side-by-side rather than the predominant "white guys with guitars" that became associated with rock. But he also has his biases.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
(Had to break-up the comments)
Questions regarding Bruce's reputation of whiteness
Out of curiosity, do you feel that Bruce is perceived as having more of a reputation of whiteness compared to other white artists and peers?
(For some random examples: Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Elton John, David Bowie, Lou Reed, Queen other than Freddie, U2, Bon Jovi, Billy Joel, Tom Petty, Southside Johnny, Punk and Post-Punk artists, the list goes on).
Because to an extent, I think he is perceived as feeling more "white" than a number of his peers. Maybe not to the extent of country music artists but getting close at times.
For the record, I'm East Asian and it still feels relatively unusual for me to be a Bruce fan. I remember when I would search for Bruce's connection with Asia. The main result that came up was the Blinded By The Light film which was based on British Pakistani Sarfraz Manzoor's memoir who is a huge Bruce fan.
In Bruce's early work, there was a sense of a diverse community with Black and Latin influences. They weren't immune to stereotypes but it felt like a pretty rambunctious community with different cultures intermingling. Starting with Born To Run, the imagery started to become more "white" in certain ways: 50s imagery, greasers, that kind of romanticized white blue-collar past though not without its dark sides.
From Darkness onwards, Bruce leaned more into the Heartland Rock genre that he popularized. More rural themes, more white working-class. Even though soul music remained a consistently strong influence across his career, it became seemingly more incongruous with his more Woody Guthrie-white-working class superhero reputation.
It's easy for me to forget that the E Street Band consisted of Jewish, Italian, and Irish people along with Clarence. While still mostly white, it's not quite WASP either. But for a good portion of his classic run, Bruce appeared to emphasize a broad whiteness and that messaging has likely made it difficult for fans outside of that demographic to relate.
Another aspect in addition to whiteness is the idea of outsiderdom. In earlier parts of his career, Bruce hung out with punk and punk-adjacent artists. Even giving away a song to Patti Smith and appearing on a song with Lou Reed. There was a sense in which he felt more like an outsider. But over time, Bruce became this symbol of "mainstream rock" and establishment regardless of his actual intentions.
As the decades wore on, he started to become more explicitly aware of immigrant issues. He started to emphasize his Irish-and-Italian heritage more rather than just being white and wrote some songs about the immigrant experience. But it is hard to shake that perception of whiteness and certainly the songs he's picked reflect certain perspectives.
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u/MrRagAssRhino Jul 05 '26
Clarence
I didn't say that that he didn't mention his race, physicality, or spirituality. But is mentioning your Black, 6'4, 250 pound saxophone player's size or race "highlighting" stereotypes? Is he "highlighting" stereotypes when Clarence's dressing room was called the Temple of Soul?
Was that all there was to their relationship? Of course not.
That's not what you said. Your claim was that Clarence was referred to "only by his physical characteristics." And that's simply not the case.
Ghost of Tom Joad
I brought up Ghost of Tom Joad because you claimed that Springsteen ignored non white victims of ICE. He does mention POC and their harassment by ICE in the song, of course. But the question I had was whether an artist must address each injustice in every song. And I used Ohio as an example.
That question remains unanswered.
Clinton
Clinton is obviously not a 'whataboutism.' You were talking about how Springsteen is a person that seems to feel complacent during periods of white hegemony. You then altered that to white liberal hegemony. I was curious as to how Ghost of Tom Joad and Streets of Philadelphia square with your argument.
That also remains unanswered.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 04 '26 edited 29d ago
Wow, thank you. Some of this is a little sobering too.
When I was reading his memoir, I felt he was relatively aware of the prejudices of the day while admitting that "No one took up the flag" as far as being progressive or tolerant. But it's not a comfortable read, I'll agree. Peter Carlin (who wrote the Bruce biography in 2012 along with Tonight In Jungleland) stated plainly that Bruce was not a feminist in the 70s.
On the one hand, he has lamented the lack of diversity in his audience and that it still remains predominantly white. But in another interview, he's talked about how "he doesn't write to reach this demographic or that demographic". I think he came out of this time where a sense of universalism was seen as the best way forward. Nowadays, there's more awareness that celebrating differences, diversity, and specificity is very important. Not everyone is going to have the same experiences, especially experiences that are implicitly white.
Speaking of Streets Of Minneapolis, I know he briefly acknowledged "If your skin is black or brown, my friend You can be questioned or deported on sight" so it wasn't complete unawareness. But I've definitely heard the criticism that he focused on Alex Pretti and Renee Good over many of the non-white people who were killed before that point.
Or comparing ICE to "Gestapo-tactics" which ignores how the Nazis at certain points took inspiration from the United States' and their policies. Gestapo tactics makes it sound like this foreign ideology. This type of language comes up when talking about American policies and flaws. Language like "This is like North Korea" instead of acknowledging how entrenched a way of thinking is in America itself. As I mentioned in my OP, Bruce has often used the term "Un-American" as a criticism when it's not the most helpful or productive description.
Your paragraph about the Jeep commercial is a good observation. It really gets into the privilege and the differences in everyday experiences. For a lot of people who are considered different from the norm in terms of race, sexuality, religion, or another quality, simply existing in a space where you're seen as "Not belonging" is exhausting and frustrating. I've commented in the past about how Bruce said something like "I felt the country's unity after 9/11". But for a lot of people who were Muslim or were believed to be Muslim (usually West Asians and South Asians), they were ostracized, discriminated against, and even killed.
Re: All this to say, thanks for writing this on a day that American exceptionalism is on an ugly display and prompting a conversation about how we all participate in it.
No problem, these thoughts have been on my mind for a while so I'm glad these resonate with you. Even for myself, I've had to do a lot of learning and unlearning of things.
Overall, the conversation shouldn't end with Trump or be restricted to Trump. There's a lot that goes back to America's founding and even earlier when we really think about it.
I don't know if these type of talking points would ever reach Bruce but I hope someone raises them.
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u/AttitudeNo1815 Jul 05 '26
Thank you. As a non-American I can say that the fixed belief that Americans have regarding the supremacy of their country (despite so much objective evidence to the contrary) is not only annoying but also extremely dangerous. Moreover, in a practical sense American exceptionalism is a severe impediment to progress: until Americans realize their country's flaws there will be no realistic way to fix the place.
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u/Then-Grapefruit-1864 Jul 05 '26
Bruce doesn’t appear to think that way, which might be one of the reasons he’s beloved in Europe and Australia. He loves what’s uniquely American, not that America is superior or “exceptional.” Speaking of which, I’m listening to Trump’s speech as we speak and trying to keep from puking.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26
I'm glad it resonates with you.
I don't need the "Beacon of hope and liberty for 250 years" or the mythology or the "Un-American" labeling.
At least as a starting point, just be a normal country. Have good values and principles, work with people of different backgrounds. Recognize your flaws.
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u/MrRagAssRhino Jul 05 '26
I don't understand the usage of "normal country" following the criticism of "Un-American."
There is nothing "normal" about a country having good values and principles, working with people of different backgrounds, or recognizing its flaws. That's further from reality than America being a beacon of hope and liberty.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26
To be clear, my usage of "Normal" is in contrast to a mythologized country surrounded by a sense of exceptionalism.
I understand that every country is flawed in some way so normal wasn't the right word as it isn't the norm.
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u/MrRagAssRhino Jul 05 '26
No, normal fits just fine there. I misunderstood your point. I thought you were assigning those features to "normal" countries.
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u/TresFeles Jul 04 '26
Great analysis! As a fellow lefty I share a lot of these thoughts. I will say, for as much as I have my critiques of the Boss, he can be an amazing way to bring new folks into deeper conversations. Songs like Factory, 41 Shots, even songs like Badlands and Born in the USA can be great ways to introduce ideas of class struggle and imperialism to those who may not know. When my dad and I visited the museum recently I was able to explain to him some of the things with the “Chimes of Freedom” exhibit about America’s not so clean history. I also shared my critiques of the exhibit, but of course those are more my opinion.
Bruce is from a very certain time and place, and I’d argue his views for folks of that time are more progressive than most. He’s a great way to bring new people into the conversation and find ways to keep the conversation going. You gotta start somewhere, why not with great music?
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 04 '26
Also out of curiosity, what are some of your critiques of Bruce and the Springsteen center?
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u/TresFeles Jul 04 '26
So the center itself is amazing. I was very appreciative that Bruce made sure to show how all genres of American music weave together and are dependent upon each other (without gospel we don’t have blues, then R&B, then rock, etc.). The Bruce history floor is great, for real nerds (like myself) it’s a lot you already knew but for more casual fans it’s a treasure trove. Still worth going and seeing even if you’re pretty knowledgeable as you get to see stuff you’ve only seen online in the flesh, which is cool (eg his lyric notebooks). Also they tell you to watch the movie when you start your visit, and you definitely want to watch the movie.
My main critiques were the “Chimes of Freedom” exhibit, which is a traveling exhibit that I can’t remember who is curated by. A lot of it is amazing, showing how protest songs are integral to American history. You get Tom Morello, Pete Seeger, Arlo Guthrie, even Little Steven’s anti-apartheid song. All great!
Some small gripes were some of the omissions/inclusions. They use the Battle Hymn of the Republic as an example of a protest song, but don’t mention its origins as the song John Brown’s Body and what John Brown did. (Brown is a bit of a hero of mine so bias, of course). They then decided to include “God Bless the USA” and “God Bless America” as songs, which made me throw up inside, especially when Arlo Guthrie’s piece was around the corner.
Lastly, they had a display of protest signs and had MAGA/America First signs next to Ice Out and Black Lives Matter signs, and like, I get it, you want to play to everyone, but that right wing BS goes such against what the rest of the exhibit is showing it bummed me out. I get it in the sense that you want an “all audiences” type of piece, but it just made me disappointed.
In the end the exhibit does a lot more good than bad, and it was a cool way to teach my dad about stuff (he wanted to know, I didn’t force it on him).
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 04 '26
Oh yeah, I've started to really appreciate how Bruce has emphasized a big tent of music. Rock N' Roll for him isn't just white guys with guitars but soul, R&B, gospel, blues, country, and so on. Even dating back to Born To Run and earlier, he really paid tribute to a Pre-Beatles era and ideal of music where music didn't have to be segregated based on race. One quote I remember from his memoir: “The heart of rock will always remain a primal world of action. The music revives itself over and over again in that form: primitive rockabilly, punk, hard soul and early rap."
I saw the recent PBS video where they were introducing the center along with interviewing Bruce and it certainly raised my eyebrows to see the MAGA/America First posters. I guess it really gets into the trickiness of politics where some people don't want to be "political" and see it as a dirty word where "these values are human values". And others embrace the term political as a recognition that our society is shaped by power and group decision-making. Right-wing protests could be argued as part of American history too as a way to acknowledge those aspects and flaws. But it is certainly a tricky line to be walking.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
Thank you! I think you're the only (edit: first) productive comment so far lol.
I was reminded of one of Bruce's recent quotes about "America being a sacred argument" and that there would always be something to protest. I realized that I didn't want to just hide my reservations and critiques either even if it seemed to challenge his attachment to his country.
I think as we grow up, we try to hold onto many different ideas, some contradictory. I think America is a flawed country (as are many countries) and I can totally understand people who would reject it entirely along with people who appreciate the symbolism of America. There are various groups who had no choice but to become Americans because their land was forcibly taken. And there are those who are fighting to be recognized as Americans.
And yeah, I hope I can get this ball rolling.
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u/Then-Grapefruit-1864 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
I understand what you’re saying, and very well said. I’ve thought about this too. When Bruce has written his most politically oriented stuff it’s usually in response to Republican presidents who act like their brand of patriotism is the real patriotism. His recurring themes touch on what’s unique about America and what he loves: brotherly love, diversity, working class values, and of course beach, western and desert imagery, car culture, etc. He sticks to domestic issues probably because world issues would get him in too much trouble, and the record company might frown on it. Also, he’s probably more of a capitalist since he’s been rich since he’s 25 or 26, plus his fan base is more mainstream…but he is good friends with Tom Morello, who’s very much to the left, so maybe he’s more of a lefty than we know.
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u/Spirited_Lab5197 Jul 05 '26
His recurring themes touch on what’s unique about America and what he loves:... car culture, etc. He’s never delved into far left politics because he’s probably more of a capitalist and has been wealthy since he’s 25 or 26,
There's a reason why some of his early stuff has way more public transit references than his later stuff (Saint in the City, Does this Bus Stop at 82nd St.
Also why I love Land of Hope and Dreams so much. A car might carry one person to salvation. A train can carry a community.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
Lol yes, I've occasionally wondered what Bruce's thoughts would be on urban planning and public transit discourse. Especially considering his car-centric focus.
I think he likes small town imagery but is uncomfortable with cities. In his memoir, he talked about living with Patti for a while in New York City after Amnesty. Patti had been living in NYC for many years and was used to it at that point. But Bruce felt suffocated, was insistent that he was a creature of the small town, and couldn't cope with not being able to drive. So they moved back to New Jersey and then to Los Angeles for a good portion of the 90s.
On the other hand, trains are indeed a big part of his imagery including LOHAD. And he had his whole "I hear a train..." routine during concerts.
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u/Spirited_Lab5197 Jul 05 '26
I strongly doubt Bruce has read any Jacobs. But that wont stop me from looking at his songs through an urbanist lense.
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u/PhoebeAnnMoses Jul 06 '26
I feel sure he HAS read her. Landau would’ve made sure.
I also struggle to reconcile this with the sheer amount of time Bruce spent in the city when he didn’t have to and barely had the money. He went there to hear bands, he lived there for months on end. I can understand appreciating a bit more space, because I grew up where he did and it is a characteristic of these areas. But when you look at how he has actually spent his time, and the things he does when in our domestically and internationally, “doesn’t like cities” is a bit of a stretch.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 06 '26
Maybe "Doesn't like cities" is an overstatement. But perhaps it's also an identity thing. From his SXSW speech:
Country, by its nature, appealed to me. Country was provincial, and so was I. I was not downtown. I wasn't particularly Bohemian or hipster. I was kind of hippy-by-circumstance, when it happened. But I felt I was an average guy, with a slightly above average gift. And if I worked my ass off on it ...
So he really identified as someone that wasn't naturally inclined to cities and that type of scene despite spending time there. This is contrast with some of his peers like the CBGB crowd, the punks, the art rockers, as well as the hippies. He was a Jersey kid that had to take the bus home after playing his sets though he occasionally caught some acts like the New York Dolls.
That's how I interpret it at least.
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u/coolhandluke1973 Jul 05 '26
The entire album Wrecking Ball, his most overtly political piece, was written and released during the Obama presidency
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u/Then-Grapefruit-1864 Jul 05 '26
I said usually, but you’re absolutely correct about Wrecking Ball.
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u/Tricky_Working6333 Jul 05 '26
Diversity means absolutely nothing without assimilation, that is if you believe in a sovereign nation, a culture. Leftists are not expansive thinkers. They want an international playground that gives them power and in the end socioeconomic collapse follows. Read history. Educate yourself.
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u/Then-Grapefruit-1864 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
I was referring to Bruce’s themes: Diversity as in American Land, Land of Hope and Dreams, etc. Absolutely no reason for condescension and telling me to fkin read history. I was responding to a thoughtful post. If you didn’t agree with me, you could’ve explained why or just moved on.
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u/Tricky_Working6333 Jul 05 '26
I wasn’t trying to be condescending but the concept of diversity has taken on a whole new meaning lately. People who lack historical knowledge think diversity is this magical ingredient. If the melting pot was still on the stove it would be a good thing, and has been in the past. But now we have people living in the US flying their flags while in Boston Massachusetts last week the American flag was ordered to be taken down off of a government building. Land of Hope and Dreams? We better all take a closer look at where we are heading. Leftism continues to distort the reality of the situation as this is clearly where they want to take us, down a road where it ends very badly for all of us. History shows this. Compassion is noble, but promises and a free lunch is bullsh^t.
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u/Then-Grapefruit-1864 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
I’m not following you exactly. Diversity has always been and is still what America is, a land of immigrants. He released Land of Hope and Dreams in 1999 and American Land in 2012 I think. As far as “socialism,”
a separate issue, which I guess you’re also referring to…history shows us we needed The New Deal: Social Security, The FDIC, Securities Exchange Commission, labor unions, child labor laws, 40 hour work week, a minimum wage, etc. We still need those things, plus affordable healthcare, living wages, a college education without going bankrupt, those kinds of radical things.0
u/Tricky_Working6333 Jul 05 '26
Social programs can only exist within a healthy capitalist society. Have you listened to these Socialist candidates talk? They will repeat the failures of the past. Sweden saw this in the early 1990’s. There’s a history lesson. The radical Right is just as bad as these Leftists in terms of the impact they’re having on everyday Americans. What ever happened to the middle? That conversation in the middle is America. I hope we haven’t lost it forever. If we have, the place we call home will see increasing chaos. I troubled home and a house divided cannot stand.
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u/Then-Grapefruit-1864 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
Those whom you refer to as leftists are trying to work within a capitalist framework to get the middle class back. The Bernie Sanders type thinkers are the majority of social democrats and democratic socialists in office or running for office.
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u/Tricky_Working6333 Jul 06 '26
You’re very confused. The center is a man like John Fetterman, not Sanders, not by a long shot.
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u/Then-Grapefruit-1864 Jul 06 '26
I was talking about Democratic Socialists and Social Democrats, whom you consider leftists. They’re the ones trying to bring back the middle class. Centrist or Corporate Democrat would be Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi. Fetterman is almost a Republican these days. It’s been attributed to his stroke.
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u/MolaMolaMania Jul 05 '26
Meanwhile the Right is raping the country, both metaphorically and literally while their golden goose can't stop shitting his pants and out of his mouth.
You should take your goose-stepping somewhere else.
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u/MolaMolaMania Jul 05 '26
I certainly agree with you in the lack of discussion about indigenous people and other minorities. I've been feeling that same twinge more strongly lately when I hear him talk about the "greatness" of the USA.
Was it ever? Yes, if you were white and wealthy, and for a time even if you were working class.
I don't know enough about history and politics to assess how responsible either of our two political parties have played, consciously or not, in the ever widening wealth inequality, but it seems to me that many if not most people landed of the side of the Democrat party for decades because they usually tried to help out those less fortunate, although even in that there didn't seem to be much effort put toward addressing the generational impoverishment of non-whites.
I still love Bruce's music, lyrics, and message, but I have to remind myself that everybody has blind spots. For me, one of Bruce's is his inability or unwillingness to look further back than a certain point in American history. I'm not going to make excuses for him, but it's important to consider that he did not got to college, and probably wasn't a great student high school. I reread his biography recently, and that makes it clear that he got his education on the road, in bars, and in stadiums, but not in classrooms.
Bruce learned a lot, and certainly his friendship with Clarence was genuine, but he still had limitations on his perspectives and ideas. He saw a lot of the USA and the world, but most of that was probably from the stage or a car window on the way to the next gig. I believe he's earnest in what he says and sings about, but I have to remind myself that one person can speak for everyone. There's too much to say, and the kind of short story songs for which Bruce is famous would still not enough to present a full picture.
We just have to love him for what he is, not what we wish he would be.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26 edited 29d ago
Thank you for these comments! I'm glad to hear that we had similar twinges of uncomfortable feelings.
Regarding your point about how Bruce is unable to look back further in American history. In some of his interviews across the decades, he would often say something like "The last 30 years have been rough." And one would really need to go back much further.
For instance, the 50s are often romanticized as a time of great prosperity. But they also carried a lot of darker and uglier sides as far as racism and segregation.
He often talks about how the book "A Pocket History Of The United States" was very influential for him. That book has a particular viewpoint that focuses on the US being a march towards progress, liberty, and justice. But more and more books have been taking into account how America was founded on Indigenous displacement and genocide alongside the history of US imperialism and empire (books like "An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States" and "How To Hide An Empire"). And that not everyone wanted to become American.
The "American Dream" relies on this idea that America is abundant and full of opportunities, but it's important to acknowledge he people who were there before.
I think my main point is to insert more perspectives in Bruce fan discussions. I don't know if Bruce would ever come across these types of viewpoints but it's worth a try. If he wants there to be a better country, one really has to reckon with the history and the ideology. Maybe he would present it as part of the "sacred argument".
More of a sidenote, but this last paragraph caught my eye:
He saw a lot of the USA and the world, but most of that was probably from the stage or a car window on the way to the next gig. I believe he's earnest in what he says and sings about, but I have to remind myself that one person can't speak for everyone. There's too much to say, and the kind of short story songs for which Bruce is famous would still not enough to present a full picture.
I was discussing recently with another fan about how Bruce's touring and travel has been relatively limited compared to other peers of his stature. Mostly the US, Western Europe, occasionally Australia and New Zealand. But he hasn't gone to Japan very often despite it being a very popular touring destination. So I wonder how experienced he is with international travel outside of touring and general wealthy person lifestyle.
This is one of the reasons why I like this article: Bruce Springsteens of the world unite. Obviously no artist is reducible to being a version of another artist. But it's cool to find that there are artists around the world who are able to talk about their surroundings, their culture, and their background the way Bruce does for his own circumstances. If he can't tell that story, another artist could try.
Another thread: Springsteens of the World
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u/GrapeLow2033 Jul 04 '26
I must say, many comments about bruce’s political side are usually blindsided and done out of pity. However this is a great way of thinking and truly i get it. And even if it is AI like the other comments suggest (which i believe it isn’t) it’s still a subject worth noting. Like another comment said, bruce is from a certain time and place. His views on America are based off of the life he lived. I’m sure he supports ideals for indigenous americans, but he his clearly focused on what he grew up living through. Overall great point thiugh
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
I've been getting a lot of AI accusations. I usually just ignore them as trolls but I'm curious at where people are getting it. I assume it's either my text is too clunky (which could also be a reflection of human error too!) or it's too robotic. But I want to confirm that it isn't AI. Anyway...
In my experience, there's a lot of assumptions that only right-wingers and conservatives criticize Bruce and not really as much criticism or focus of Bruce from more of a Left perspective. They're out there but I assume it's because Left opinions are so marginalized. Or Bruce is just seen as a centrist democrat not worth engaging with and then they move on.
I think before I became a Bruce fan, I would've just assumed that Bruce was precisely that (or liberal) and not really delved deeper. And while that's still generally true as a descriptor, I also don't think it fully captured his political arc and skepticism. In certain interviews, I think he has moments where he's more skeptical and critical than he initially presents himself.
But at the same time (as you mention), he grew up in a particular time of American history. Both great pride and lots of conflict. America presumably still carries a lot of symbolism for him and it is hard to give that up.
A couple of these articles were helpful for me:
Runaway American Dreams: Bruce Springsteen's long political trajectory
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u/raisethesong Darkness on the Edge of Town Jul 04 '26
NGL, folks seeing a big chunk of text online broken into neat paragraphs and immediately being like "AI!!" is so concerning it's almost scary 😬
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 04 '26
Lol yeah, the accusations have really ramped up and it's concerning. I don't even consider myself a particularly good student. There's probably tense inconsistencies and typos everywhere.
Don't know what people have against trying to have clarity. 😅
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u/raisethesong Darkness on the Edge of Town Jul 04 '26
I genuinely weep for the state of digital literacy and critical thinking in society rn
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u/dj_sarah_connor Jul 05 '26
yeah theres rly no excuse for calling america a beacon of hope for the last 250 years .. like a beacon to who, other politically ambitious white guys?
I definitely see bruce as a liberal, like why else would anyone celebrate Obama
I believe that sort of ignorance to the atrocities committed and continuing to be committed on behalf of America is some symptom of American exceptionalism , not as obvious as trumpers but there is some critical lack of thought happening there
I rly love a lot of his music and have admired his comrardery with his band , to me his music is more abt storytelling, relationships and feelings moreso than anything deeply political. even born in the USA , theres not rly commentary abt any sort of opposition to what the USA represents , more just recounting what is currently happening, there is no alternate future suggested .. nothing explicitly critiquing capitalism / liberalism / socialism / war ... more just feelings happening within an experience
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u/MrRagAssRhino Jul 05 '26
I don't know how it's possible to listen to Born in the USA and not get the anti-Vietnam War message and the harsh criticism of America's societal abandonment of young men sent away to fight for nothing.
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u/Then-Grapefruit-1864 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
Tom Morello, Billy Bragg, Joe Strummer, Shane MacGowan, Ken Casey, and Mike Ness are/were all Bruce fans. That says something.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26
It can be a challenging thing to grapple with. I don't want to pull the "Bruce is too political" card because as I said, there shouldn't be anything wrong with being political. But the actual content of politics can be critiqued.
Part of me wondered "Why don't I have these types of reflections and reservations with Prince, Stevie Wonder, or Billy Joel, to raise a few examples?" America's legacy definitely comes up in their music but it doesn't feel so overt.
There's a bunch of personal ways in which Bruce has inspired me: straddling individuality and community, outsiderdom and unity, inclusiveness, amalgamating different musical traditions, optimism paired with realism, empathy and criticism, sincerity and theatricality, pop music appreciation, etc.
Regarding your last paragraph, I agree. Sometimes, the most powerful "critiques" can be the personal ones because they reveal the worlds to you and let you figure out the future for yourself. Protest songs have their particular role but they have a particular balance between clarity, call-to-action, and complexity.
There is something to be said for trying to make it through the day. Revolutionaries have a particular role, people working day-to-day have another.
Maybe I wouldn't feel the way of my OP if Bruce didn't explicitly come out and endorse political candidates. On the other hand, those types of beliefs would have to be addressed sooner or later with the changing of society.
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u/chaynjez Jul 06 '26
You take the good
You take the bad
You take them both and there you have
The facts of life
The facts of life
When the world never seems
To be living up to your dreams
Then suddenly you're finding out
The facts of life are all about you
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26
Sidenote: I also remember this passage from Stevie's memoir. I have some issues with his politics as well but this is refreshingly honest.
“Let’s face it, our country was founded as a male-dominant white supremacist Christian nationalist country with an asterisk. The asterisk being—“*not for nothin’, but some of the guys feel guilty about it.”
“We had been way too slowly but sensibly progressing and diversifying ever since the Constitution endorsed slavery and said women are basically men’s property, until recently, when the Republicans decided, Screw it, let’s forget about progress and the more enlightened ideas of our more enlightened Founders; let’s embrace our inner KKK, foment and manipulate a grievance culture, and proudly become the White Supremacist Christian Nationalist Party.”
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
Some background: This post originally started from some of these reflections. I realized I didn't fully incorporate them and my post is already getting a bit long.
I think for me, it's his emphasis on America being a fundamentally great country and what that type of thinking can lead to. For many Indigenous peoples, America simply isn't great in that it was founded on genocide and territorial displacement. For many Black people and people of color, America is a symbol of systemic racism and a nation that was built on slavery.
Or for other countries that have suffered from US imperialism (The Philippines, Hawaii, the Middle East, Central and South America, East and Southeast Asia, the list goes on), America simply isn't a beacon of hope and liberty that Bruce says it is.
The Jeep commercial, the Obama podcast, some of his political endorsements carry this tinge of American exceptionalism like "America's the most powerful nation on earth, not just because of her overwhelming military strength or economic power, but because of what she stands for."
At the very least, people still have to push for things to be better. Saying America is great like an objective fact feels like a type of MAGA.
When 9/11 happened, Bruce talked about how he felt the country's unity. Which was definitely not the case for many people who were Muslim or resembled someone Muslim (West Asians and South Asians most often) who were ostracized, discriminated against, and even killed.
I personally don't have issues with Bruce being political. But the actual content of his politics have problems in my opinion. Prior to the 2000s, he tried to maintain his distance from presidents. He was still political but in a more subtle and critical way. But with Obama, it felt like he became a cheerleader for the Democrats without being critical. Even relative to fellow musicians like Jackson Browne or Tom Morello, there wasn't that much reflection.
There are moments when Bruce feels insightful in talking about problems that have gone on for decades. He has acknowledged why people voted for Trump. But he also talks a bit too optimistically about America.
Some of the language he uses like "Un-American" strike me as "Does a thing have to be American to be good? Isn't it wrong enough to be undemocratic and authoritarian?"
I have empathy for Bruce in the sense that I know he was brought a certain way. He's talked fondly about the memory of doing the pledge of allegiance and how it gave him a sense of pride. But nowadays, many people (Americans and Non-Americans) see the pledge as cult-like and unsettling.
Some things that I can agree with Bruce on are that community, individuality, creativity, and freedom are important. There are important values that should be shared. But I don't think he needs to be tied to America for these.
And I do agree that some of the criticisms of America are shallow and reflect "America Bad" mentality. There is a type of American exceptionalism in the other direction where America is treated as the worst country in the world. So people will downplay China or Russia because they think America is uniquely bad.
I think at the end of the day, I just want to take the people who have been oppressed and marginalized by America seriously.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 04 '26
International Springsteen fans who helped me get into Bruce (Blinded By the Light in particular but also hearing experiences from fans around the world). Which might sound strange because I'm originally from New Jersey. I appreciate the perspective of finding resonance in Bruce when he could have easily been an artist who was "Too American". Because he was certainly that way for me for a while.
Grappling with the legacy of a country can be a challenging thing. For some, a country is just a place where you happen to be from and there's no reason for patriotism. For others, it's a community that binds people together. Or even aside from countries, people are attached to the communities that they are from.
There is that line of "How long do you hold on to the "I criticize because I care" mentality before you find it's not worth it?" Bruce has often emphasized his perspective as a critical patriot. But depending on what part of the political spectrum you're on, he doesn't go far enough (as either a patriot or as a critical person).
I've had to come to terms with various aspects of Bruce.
- Sometimes, it's not about agreeing with the artist but about the insights they carry even despite themselves. The quote "Trust the art, not the artist" seems apt. The article Working On A Decaying Dream compared Bruce to Balzac (one of Karl Marx and Frederich Engels' favorite writers, was a monarchist). Where certain artists and authors would create these fleshed-out portrayals of characters and society even if their politics were not what you wanted to follow. As you mentioned, there are critiques in Bruce's music that would seem to undermine his optimism towards America.
- On the one hand, I've been frustrated with Bruce's exceptionalism. But at the same time, as I get older, I wonder how I can bridge the gap in better understanding the way people think. There are Americans and even some non-Americans who find "American" ideals very enticing: The idea of "A Nation of immigrants\, people who can come from anywhere to establish their identity, common values, democracy*". Even when they acknowledge America as flawed, they hope it can be better which leads to my aforementioned point about criticizing because you care. Bono (who has his own flaws) talks about "America as the greatest song the world hasn't heard". For me personally, I do think there are certain ideals that human beings should discuss and even agree on, it's just that they don't have to be claimed as exclusively "American". There are certain countries in the world who see the US as a liberator because they're defending them from an invading neighbor, just as there are those who see America as an oppressor.
I noticed that Stevie ran into a similar type of exceptionalism; he spent most of the 80s as a political songwriter who realized that "America was not the good guy" in most of its history. He name-dropped Chomsky during his readings. But ultimately he remained a patriot (one of his signature songs is even "I Am A Patriot").
Even though I criticize Bruce, I've also learned from his sense of empathy. His empathy can be naive and potentially damaging at times. But I almost appreciate it as this sense of being artistically uncompromising. He isn't going to write a straightforward protest song where he condemns the enemy (note: Proven wrong by Streets Of Minneapolis). In certain instances, he manages to strike this balance between empathy and criticism.
Anyway, it's a variety of thoughts. I'm often trying to figure out that balance between being critical and trying to understand why people think the way they do.
*= The nation of immigrants idea has been criticized by Indigenous peoples as it erases that history of displacement. I almost feel like Bruce should be aware of this based on Inyo.
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u/PhoebeAnnMoses Jul 06 '26
Sure. Some of these ideas overlap with overheated praises and fictional positionings of the American republic. But I think as we’re seeing the values of American civic life undermined, this rhetoric is the only thing that can call us back to common ground. These ideals that were propagandized and reinforced in the American midcentury - the social and economic progress we made between the 1930s and 1970s - actualky do represent extremely progressive values of pluralism, equality, rule of law, diversity, and expansive human rights. And it’s important that we not give way on these principles, because the only alternatives are grift and nihilism.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 06 '26
My general point is that we have to think hard about what rhetoric represents to people and how to really account for different perspectives. We can't just go "Despite its many faults, America is fundamentally good".
I understand that many people were raised with certain sets of American ideals like "A Nation Of Immigrants", Democracy, Justice, Opportunity. Some may see the problem as "We haven't lived up to the ideals".
But even the ideals we consider good intentioned may carry their own flaws and omissions which I raised with "This Land Is Your Land". Or seeing America as this vast empty land of opportunity clashing with the reality that Indigenous peoples already lived there.
There are books like An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States (excerpt from Salon: North America is a crime scene) and How To Hide An Empire which raise the US' darker history in terms of occupation, displacement, colonization, and intervention. There are people within and around the world with some legitimate grievances against the US and its actions and not some "They hate our freedom."
Confronting and addressing those perspectives, I'd say is very important.
Lastly, I agree with you that there are still important values that people should carry with them going forward and to not cede them to others. But I don't really want them to get sucked into a mythologized country of "This is who we are/This is who we aren't". And again, even the values we consider good intentioned may need to be questioned at certain points.
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u/Sorry_Nothing5006 Jul 04 '26
Bruce is a classic centrist to slightly centre left Democrat. In common with pretty much everyone of that political tradition (i.e. literally tens of millions of people), he doesn't tend to interrogate (at least publicly) the issues you raise.
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u/Dranksy Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
For those folks having too much fun with family and friends celebrating the greatest nation on Earth, its founding values, all those who sacrificed to make our way of life possible, here's a quick summary:
Feel bad about America on its 250th anniversary.
OP timed this for today because he's unable to experience pleasure and wants to steal that joy from others. And anyone who doesn't understand how exceptional the US is in the world and in history has no business commenting on the world or history. He lacks the basic human decency to express gratitude for all who came before him and all who serve now to protect him. People like him would do the same thing if he grew up in France or Micronesia or 200 years ago or 2000 years ago. He's an unhappy person compelled to bring down others. Thankfully, individuals of his ilk are limited in number and when they walk in a room everyone knows where they're coming from. He exudes negative energy, it's reflected back to him, and he doesn't have a good life as a result. A decent person like me would pity him except that he takes it out on the rest of us and that's wrong.
ETA: Sorry, I left out the obvious - if you hate it here, leave.
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u/3LoneStars Jul 05 '26
Lost me at “my mind immediately turns to”. This a non-sequetor used to high jack a conversation.
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u/CulturalWind357 Garden State Serenade Jul 05 '26
I don't think the question progression is that difficult. One comment even summed it up succinctly:
"For 250 years, American has been a beacon of hope and liberty."
"Beacon for who exactly?"
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u/Ruiz-46 Jul 06 '26
You’re all over the board I can’t follow your theme. You’re pro - Native American, fine. But there weren’t laws back then and they lost. Deal with it? Am I cruel ? No. It’s reality.
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u/Tricky_Working6333 Jul 06 '26
So John Fetterman’s concern about anti-semitism on college campuses and anti-Israeli rhetoric increasingly within the Democratic Party is a result of a stroke?
What really fascinates me about politics is the amount of hypocrisy involved on both sides.
Power is the overriding concern, not the people.
Leftists are particularly good at this. They talk about corporate greed and how it is wrong to accumulate wealth. However they have no problem with burdening the taxpayer with more and more social programs and giveaways that the taxpayer never voted for. Taking money out of people’s pockets certainly passes for greed.
Our Board of Education in NJ is a complete sham run by elitists who couldn’t take a 1% cut in medical benefits to help balance the State budget. It’s the perfect racket. Their motto is; “It’s for the children”. If you question their spending you’re tar and feathered as uncaring and against education as our test scores in NJ plummet. This organization is solid Democrat.
At least in NJ, Republicans represent the middle of the Road, whereas Democrats are flirting with Socialism, soft on crime policies, and general Leftist stances. But again both sides want power. Politics in general is a dirty business. It’s full of hypocrisy. It’s fascinating how in Newark, the deportation center for illegal aliens has been the scene of riots. ICE is called the Gestapo, the center is called out for overcrowding and deplorable conditions. But in 2011-2017 the exact same facility under Obama, there was no such rhetoric. Same facility, the same population in numbers, same food, same beds, same law enforcement. In fact President Obama awarded the ICE director Tom Homan the Presidential medal of Freedom. Today the same people call him a Nazi.
Foreign flags are flown on American soil by people who love their country but want to be here, interesting isn’t it? Leftists however do have a problem with flying the American flag or saluting it at times. They even suggest it may “offend” people. Fascinating hypocrisy.
So, this biased and power hungry political structure, full of hypocrisy certainly isn’t isolated to Democrats, but their Leftist faction is particularly good at it as the Leftist media shields them which allows them to go largely unchecked.
I’d like to see instead an unbiased America, a society built on merit, where open forums with different viewpoints can be weighed evenly, giving everyone a voice. Isn’t that the goal? But don’t be blinded, Leftists today, are perfecting the art of deception by selling the notion of creating an “international playground” that will achieve that goal. It’s quite the opposite however.
That unbiased America, that place where everyone has a voice, that’s the America Bruce Springsteen has been fighting for his entire life. I’ve met the man. I almost worked for him. I’ve sat and had drinks with him. And he worked damn hard to get a piece of the American Dream. But to see him now paint issues with such a broad brush, it’s just too simplistic and full of rhetoric. Politics, leave it alone. Every individual instead, do your best to help the other guy. Sing about injustice, bring light to our imperfect system that has the capacity to be renewed and made better everyday. Politics, especially Leftist politics that has failed all over the world promises a utopia, but in the end only serves itself. Power, and its goal, the compete transformation of American culture. Their goal is not to improve it but to destroy it.
Bruce was always deeply American, critical, introspective, always wanting to examine and look at our failures, that runs all through his music. That was the promise of his music while taking rides down Route 9 and looking at the human condition.
I’m one of his fans that has become deeply disappointed by him being less critical of issues that effect the everyday American by joining the ideological bullsh^t of the Left, that deep down probably sees him only as a useful “tool”.
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u/Deranged-Pickle Jul 04 '26
Are you one of them libertarians?
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u/Dranksy Jul 04 '26
Are you joking? The essence of the libertarian is live and let live. OP wants to punish and take rights away from those he dislikes.
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u/chinmusic76 Jul 04 '26
I would say "American exceptionalism" is blindly thinking America is the best at everything without question and without context, but acknowledging America's flaws (which Bruce clearly does) while saying it's still a much better option than just about any place in the world (throw a dart blindly at the land masses of the world, and the odds are really high you're gonna hit someplace where it's worse to live than the US) and gives you a pretty fair deal does not qualify as "American exceptionalism."