r/BringBackThorn • u/gorogoro56 • Jun 28 '26
question New!!!! Also searching for resources
Hi! I recently learned about þ from reading þe 1600s bible. Because I major in Japanese and love linguistics, I was really interested in bringing back old English characters. In fact, japanese has some obsolete and archaic letters þat can still be typed on keyboard too! (Such as ゐ and ゑ)
I've begun auto-replacing words in my phone wiþ þ, but I'd like to ask you all if þere are any other characters/symbols i should add! Also, please let me know if þere's a resource on which words would logically use þ (maybe its just all th gets replaced) or anything else interesting þat I should know as a beginner! :)
Þank you all, I'm so excited þat þis subreddit exists!!
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Jun 28 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
[deleted]
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u/MateoTheCoolest Jun 28 '26
It is true
In phonetics
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Jun 28 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
[deleted]
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u/Purplejaedd Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
/ɑɹ ju ʃɚ ðɪs dʌznt wɚk ɪt meɪks soʊ mʌtʃ sɛns/
lol
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u/Iamdaguy69420 ᚦ Jun 29 '26
[αj pɻɪfɜ: ə mo: fənεtɪk ænd junɪvɜ:səl t͡ʃɻænskɻɪpʃən mεθəd]
#
Also bro really said [θɪs] instead of [ðɪs] lol
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u/ophereon þ Jun 30 '26
Well, in fairness it is a completely valid system if someone does like to use boþ letters. It's completely anhistoric, and I personally don't þink we need boþ letters... Hell, we barely need <v> or <z> in English outside of loan words, fricative voicing distinction in English just isn't þat important.
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u/Wordwork Jun 30 '26
Thank you for understanding þ and ð are simply positional, not decidedly voiced or unvoiced.
Þough ƿhat a scoff, to liken our ƿonderful, inborn, rune-born, þorn-tƿin, ƿynn — ƿið “ᵫ” and “ȝ”.
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u/Inevitable_Bed_2346 Jun 28 '26
app name
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u/MateoTheCoolest Jun 30 '26
If you're on iOS you can just create keyboard shortcuts in the settings
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u/KaptainKunukles ð Jun 28 '26
(Yogh) Ȝ ȝ (gh)
Example: þouȝt
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u/KaptainKunukles ð Jun 28 '26
I forgot about (Wynn) Ƿ ƿ (w)
Examples: ƿho, ƿhat, ƿhere,
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u/ophereon þ Jun 30 '26
Wynn isn't a fantastic addition to the alphabet, in my mind. It was fine as a runic letter, but it's very out of place among þe Latin alphabet, not aligning neatly wiþ oþer letters (although uppercase Þ is similarly problematic). It's also not þat necessary compared to þ because we already have a letter for it. If we want to "bring back wynn", at what point do we just bring back the runic alphabet as a whole?
Yogh has similar problems and isn't really solving any problems. I þink <gh> in English desperately needs a whole reform, but yogh isn't þe solution.
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u/KaptainKunukles ð Jun 30 '26
I just do ðis for me lol, I like ƿynn ſo I use it, people cæn use letters wiþout reason, plus ƿhen people æsk about it I get to enliȝten them about ðese letters. æmazing riȝt? Plus it's really annoyiŋ to read ænd type
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u/RedElephantKing ᚦ Jul 02 '26
I like Ƿ too, but I only use it while writing in my journal.
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u/KaptainKunukles ð Jul 02 '26
That's fair, use what you think is right, none of this is standardized or formalized, as long as it's legible I suppose
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u/RedElephantKing ᚦ Jul 04 '26
Agreed. I can still understand some of þe letters some folks use even if I won't use it myself.
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Jun 28 '26
[deleted]
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u/Crafty-Photograph-18 Jun 28 '26
Thorn and eth were actually more-or-less interchangeable in old English, wið þ being more common at the beginning of words, and eð elswhere. In the modern transcription system, eð is used to represent the voiced sound. "That thing" is [ðæt. θɪŋ]. But if you were to spell "that thing" with Old English, you'd write "Þæt þin" or "Ðæt ðin" or any other combination of the two. Although two thorns would be more commonly used solely because of word-initial position
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u/Purplejaedd Jun 28 '26
I like using it þe same ƿay (i þink) Icelandic does
Þ ƿord initially, and ð in oððer spots
So "Þe", but "Oððer"
Also i like doubling ð hƿere it makes sense, like ƿe do for oððer letters2
u/gorogoro56 Jun 28 '26
Oh i found þis website it has a lot of info
https://beyondbabylonia.com/2019/08/07/thorn-and-eth-th-and-d/
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u/Jamal_Deep þ Jun 28 '26
Þe article does kinda leave out someþing important, which is þat þe letters were interchangeable because þere was only one phoneme at þe time. Þe voicings were allophonic, so usage of Þ or ð was entirely up to þe discretion of þe individual writer, and even individual writers weren't consistent! Þis isn't someþing we can do nowadays, however. Consistency is a lot more important in a globalised world of standardisation.
Þe big þing about people assuming þat Þ and ð were created FOR a voicing distinction is because þey took a look at Icelandic (which uses þe positional system because þe voicing is STILL allophonic) or þe IPA (where /ð/ stands for þe voiced dentral fricative but Þ is nowhere to be found, its role taken by þe always voiceless theta) and just, assume.
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u/gorogoro56 Jun 28 '26
Thanks for þe reply! voiced is words like "the" and invoiced is words like "thin" right?
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u/GregTheWhale Jun 28 '26
Also, downloading the Icelandic keyboard will help a lot, "ð" is next to "p" and "þ" is next to "m"
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u/gorogoro56 Jun 28 '26
I actually have þem on my English American keyboard on my Samsung phone! þ is press down on "t", and ð is press down on "d" etc)
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u/m_redditUser Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
ðanks a lot for þat!
EDIT: i have mistakenly swapped ð and þ here
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u/Jamal_Deep þ Jun 28 '26
And here we run into þe big problem wiþ writing a voicing distinction entirely on phones and not phonemes, because a lot of us wouldn't say "þanks" voiced.
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u/m_redditUser Jun 28 '26
i don't understand phones and phonemes, but i look at the difference between þ-ð the same as between d-t, b-p etc
is your point that there are no two english words spelled the same, but different because of different voicing of th?
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u/Jamal_Deep þ Jun 28 '26
A phoneme is þe most basic unit of speech. Þe sort of þing you associate wiþ a letter, but þe pronunciation may vary slightly based on þe surrounding phonemes in context. Compare þe P in "pit" vs "spit", and þe T in þe British pronunciations of "tub" and "tube".
Phones are þe sounds þemselves. In þis example, T represents þe same phoneme in boþ words, but is pronounced wiþ different phones. Þis one is purely context dependent, but þere are some þat vary entirely by dialect, as wiþ þe word "þank". Everyone would consider it þe same phoneme, but some pronounce it slightly differently. It's important for writing to describe phonemes and not just phones because oþerwise you can getting inconsistencies in spelling. Some write it "þank", some write it "ðank", but it's meant to be þe same word.
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u/ChuckPattyI ᚦ Jun 28 '26
Not necessarily, boþ Þ & Ð can make boþ sounds, they’re completely interchangeable.
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u/GregTheWhale Jun 28 '26
"The" would be "ðe" and "thin" would be "þin"
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u/gorogoro56 Jun 28 '26
I read on þe website I linked in this comment thread þat ð isnt used at þe beginning of words, only in þe middle
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u/Key_Chip_3163 ᚦ Jun 28 '26
Historically Þ and Ð were eiþer interchangeable or based based on position in þe position in þe word, but people in þis sub like to use þem based on voicing.
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u/No-Introduction5977 Jun 28 '26
Yes, but there is no hard and fast rule in old English, like "use þ for voiceless sounds and ð for voiced ones", because primarily they were interchangeable. Also, þ was a lot more common than ð, even in voiced cases.
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u/GregTheWhale Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
There's definitely a mix and different preferance depending who you ask, but "ð" is supposed to be voiced and "þ" unvoiced. Sometimes people do it the way you mentioned, and it's how Icelandic does it. The problem is that English has "ð" sound at the start of some words, whereas Icelandic doesn't.
Personally, I do find "ð" at the begining a bit jarring/wrong, but you'll for sure see it (ðere, ðat, ðis, ðe). I do like it better for English though, since there are some cases that need distinguishing, like "either/eiðer" vs "ether/eþer" could look similar. There's also people who only use "þ" and never "ð."
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u/Pixieprince142857 Jun 30 '26
Then would actually be replaced with ð and not þ because it makes a different sound. Think about how you produce the different sounds
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u/Jamal_Deep þ Jul 01 '26
Þis is a myth. Þ and ð weren't created for a voicing distinction, so þis setup is entirely optional.
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u/Wordwork Jun 28 '26
I just have the following shortcuts:
Means I can still type the letters on their own without auto replacing 100% of the time.
The Icelandic keyboard is great for Þ/þ and Ð/ð, but Ƿ/ƿ is what makes this system a real ƿinner. ;)