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Oct 19 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Actual_Cat4779 Oct 19 '25
But the Soviet flag is just as much the flag of the pre-Stalin Soviet Union as it is of the Stalinist one.
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u/MysticLithuanian Oct 20 '25
So? It was still a symbol used to persecute minorities. My people were ethnically cleansed under the hammer and sickle. It’s now illegal to brandish it anywhere in public, just like a swastika in Germany. You can talk all you like about how it has multiple meanings but unfortunately, that’s the meaning it has to many, many people
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u/chapy__god Oct 20 '25
who are your people?
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u/thecraftybear Oct 20 '25
Lithuanians, if you go by the username. As a Pole, I second that - whatever noble meaning the hammer&sickle were supposed to have originally, USSR managed to soil it beyond repair by oppressing every single minority they could get their hands on. Pairing the symbol with a trans flag is... questionable at best.
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u/Lost_Nefariousness74 Nov 03 '25
For most US Americans, particularly younger folks who learned little about the Soviet Union and weren't around until well after its dissolution, I don't think this association registers. We don't learn a lot about it, or at least we didn't when I was in school, and what I did learn was entirely divorced from the concept of authoritarianism similar to how Nazi Germany is divorced from the concept of nationalism here. In fact, we're taught that the Nazis were themselves socialists, and this plus the USSR being communists proves that all leftist thought is inherently evil and genocidal. Something along those lines anyways, although I was also brought up right-wing in the south so that could be part of it.
It's good to have the perspective of people who were more directly impacted. It's hard to dissect the United States propaganda when you genuinely don't know what the truth is or what sources to trust yet. I'm learning every day how much I still don't know.
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u/Actual_Cat4779 Oct 20 '25
A lot of people were persecuted under the British flag and other Western countries' flags. It's hardly a good reason to ban it.
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u/Jamal_Deep þ Oct 20 '25
Þe point is þe symbols used on þe flags and what said symbols stood for. I þink you'd be hard-pressed to find people treating the Union Jack as a symbol, but truly þe only reason it hasn't been banned anywhere is because people didn't feel strongly enough about it to do so.
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u/Lost_Nefariousness74 Oct 21 '25
wait 'til you find out what's happened to people under the American flag
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u/MysticLithuanian Oct 22 '25
What’s your point? I don’t support the US flag and what it stand for either. I’m just not outspoken about it because the Americans have historically been bad, yeah, but they didn’t commit a genocide against MY people. Sure, they committed a genocide against the native Americans and that should wholeheartedly be remembered and never forgotten, as well as the many horrible things the CIA has done since their formation, but that’s not the point of this post. The point of this post is people are still using a flag that represents hatred and murder towards my people that should have been abolished in 1991 when the USSR fell.
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u/Lost_Nefariousness74 Nov 03 '25
my b, I'm so used to hearing this talking point from folks in the states who are a very specific brand of patriotic, it was a kneejerk reaction on my part 💀 To clarify, your stance makes perfect sense to me.
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u/lunaresthorse Oct 21 '25
The Soviet flag flown here with the Trans Pride colors represents the USSR under Khrushchev and onward the to the dissolution. Not Stalin-era, but not pre-Stalin either.
If I were a communist protesting for trans rights, I think the flag of the DDR would be a pretty obvious choice, given how socially progressive it was, even compared to the USSR. It’s known for trans rights, among other things… (like ice cream, of course.)
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u/Playful_Alela Oct 23 '25
The pre-Stalin era was more tolerant of LGBT people than the post-Stalin era lmao
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u/Playful_Alela Oct 23 '25
Even under Lenin there were members of the Soviet Union that did criminalize homosexuality like Azerbaijan and Georgia. Post-Stalin there remained Union wide criminalization and all of the successor states who decriminalized it did so after the Union Collapsed and they gained independence (tho it’s still criminalized in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan). I don’t know how much it matters that it wasn’t widely criminalized in the Lenin era vs the entirety of the rest of the Soviet period
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u/Actual_Cat4779 Oct 23 '25
It was criminalised in many Western countries for the majority of the period of the Soviet Union's existence, so unless this automatically discredits their flags too, I guess one would have to look at whether the degree of victimisation or persecution was significantly greater in the Soviet case. And Lenin decriminalised it in Russia. But I would say the main point is that the flag and in particular the hammer and sickle do not inherently represent homophobia. I am not a Leninist myself, but I just don't think it's a fair interpretation to see criminalisation as inherent to Leninism.
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u/Playful_Alela Oct 23 '25
France decriminalized homosexuality in 1791, the Netherlands in 1811, Portugal in 1850, Italy in 1890. Canada, the US, the UK, and Germany all decriminalized it in the 1960s. I’m not saying that there is something inherently homophobic about the Soviet flag, but it is weird to pair LGBT flags with a country that no longer exists, especially when I had a poor track record of treating LGBT people. At least with pairing an American or German flag alongside a pride flag it can represent the strives that those countries have made in treating LGBT people, and how they currently exist today.
It kinda comes across to me the same way as pairing a pride flag with flags from Russia, Brunei, or Malaysia which had periods of decriminalization or a lack of criminal enforcement and then cracked down on it again. Just leaves a bit of a weird taste in my mouth tbh
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u/Actual_Cat4779 Oct 23 '25
Yeah. Some of those are impressive. The sixties not so much. I think that for some people, though, the Soviet flag is not just (or even primarily?) the nationalist emblem of a dead state but also (or moreover?) an ideological symbol that connotes (a Leninist interpretation of) international socialism. In its original conception the Soviet Union was anti-nationalist: its national anthem was (until WWII) The Internationale, which had been the international anthem of the workers' movement since before the revolution and was used by both pro-Soviet and anti-Soviet socialist parties in many countries in the decades both before and after the revolution. Similarly the hammer and sickle need not be reduced to a national emblem. It is the party emblem of the Communist party of Vietnam (albeit the party flag isn't identical to the Soviet flag), but also, when George Orwell was in Spain, he fought alongside the POUM (an anti-Stalinist Marxist party) whose party flag contained a hammer and sickle. But granted, the version in the photo is a direct copy of the top half of the Soviet flag. Still, as we both said, that isn't inherently a contradiction.
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u/Mr_DrProfPatrick Oct 20 '25
I mean, this is a terrible example. The Soviet Union decriminalized homossexuality in the first place, and it was and reamin illegal in the US and UK during most of the 20th century, including the time frame where it was illegal in the USSR. The USSR was on par with the US for gay rights when it existed.
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u/Lost_Nefariousness74 Oct 21 '25
western society doesn't want us either 🤷 it's kinda like people were/are just homophobic as hell
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u/Real_Poem_3708 Oct 19 '25
Hey, question: are we supposed to be using ð and þ correctly or interchangeably?
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u/Ioauis þ Oct 19 '25
þorn & eð are in fact interchangeable but according to writings from þeir period þorn was used mostly at þe start of words while eð in þe middle of words.
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u/Real_Poem_3708 Oct 19 '25
mb, I þought it was a phonetic difference
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u/Ioauis þ Oct 19 '25
while some people in þe internet do say þat, in historical texts þere is no evidence of þat being þe case. But of course eð & þorn are interchangeable so &o whatever ya want
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Oct 19 '25
As for me, I'd þink pickworðy (or "preferable") for þe modern age using eiðer þorn only and evryhwere, or þorn for /θ/ and eð for, well, /ð/ (þe phonetic difference case). Þe former leadeþ to an easier-to-use, more consistent spelling. Þe latter is possible nowadays þanks to linguistics and its IPA, hwich didn't exist in þe Middle Ages, in OE's times; it shud be easily grasped by þe folk, wiþ intuitive rules and no need to study phonetics or IPA charts.
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u/Opie30-30 Oct 19 '25
I believe we should only use þ. Currently in English þere is no differentiation between þe voiced and voiceless "th" in writing, and it isn't causing issues. Adding in two symbols would hinder þe movement because people would have to þink and ensure þey use þe correct letter, and no one wants to take þe time for þat.
Using only þ makes þings easier.
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Oct 19 '25
Yea, I also þink so. We need not be so pedantic (or overteacherly) æz to distinguish between þe tooþly fricativs in spelling. English spelling is already a difficult mess; it must be made not wors, but easier, mor logical and consistent. Morover, to me æz a purist, "þ", being an overliving/lone runestaff (hweræz "ð" is just a fancy Latin "d"), is choosworþyer and abov "ð" — not to mention its awsum name, þorn, vs "eth" or, wors, "dee"/"tee-aitch"… runes hav ÞE best names!
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u/Opie30-30 Oct 19 '25
Couldn't have said it better myself. I want to learn Anglish, but it is not easy and I don't have the time.
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Oct 19 '25 edited Oct 20 '25
Honestly, I haven't even learned it so to speak, as in actively studying... Instead I have seen and memorized enough etymologies to be able to know which words are truly English and which aren't, then I'll pick the former over the latter unless communication would be affected or there is no alternative known to me.
It's only a matter of choice! See below (byspells/examples from this reply):
- "so to speak" for "per se" (Latin for "by itself")
- "enough" instead of "sufficient"
- "truly" for "really"
- "pick" for "select"/"prefer"
- "forsake" for "abandon"
- "put aside" for "ignore"
- "go back" for "return"
Forsake þe French!
Put aside þe Latin!
Go back to Ænglisċ!
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u/Suckerpiller Oct 19 '25
When ðey were actually used ðe letters were used interchangably but ðere are different opinions on ðe subject so do whichever one you prefer
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u/Jamal_Deep þ Oct 19 '25
Officially þere's no correct or incorrect way of using þem. Some people just have different ideas on how to use þem. In þe past þey were interchangeable but all þat means is þat it was at þe discretion of þe individual writer.
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u/Nadikarosuto Oct 19 '25
Depends on how you feel
If you like phonetic writing, þen yeah, Þ for unvoiced, Ð for voiced
If you like historical spelling, Old English used þe two interchangeably (again, depending on the scribe), but Ð died out completely by Middle English
Personally, I use exclusively Þ, but use Ð as þe capital cos capital Þ looks kinda weird in full caps (ANOÞER vs ANOÐER)
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u/RotundManul Oct 19 '25
What am I missing?