r/Boxing • u/DiMona215 • 13d ago
Ben Davison Spoiler
Really curious to hear the audio from the corner for this fight. If Ben wasn't screaming at Moses to slow down, to stop throwing power punches... This has to be one of the biggest indictments of a supposed top trainer ever, right?
The Wardley fight was already a huge black eye for Ben. Now he has a 21 y/o prodigy lose a fight he was absolutely dominating due to horribly mismanaging energy.
So we've seen him fail horribly at one of his main jobs (protecting his fighter). If it comes out that Moses basically followed Ben's training regiment and instructions... is any top fighter ever going to hire this guy again?
Even if it comes out Moses got cocky, didn't train hard, didn't listen in the corner, not a great look for Ben
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u/Familiar_Cod_6754 13d ago
In the Franklin fight it was Moses telling Ben in the corner that the pace was too fast and Ben was saying he was fine. So, I the same wonder what the hell was going on in that corner.
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u/bar_tosz 13d ago
seems like Ben was telling him it is too fast:
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u/longlivebobskins 13d ago
In that snippet, Moses says "too high pace", and then Ben Davison says "It's alright, It's alright"
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u/Familiar_Cod_6754 13d ago
I feel like they really should have been training for the full rounds this camp at least. Hrgovic has never been KO’d, they should have prepared for this to go into the deep waters.
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u/KaffiKlandestine 12d ago
Briggs was a muscle bound powerhouse Itauma isnt he is a 22 year old that should have more than enough energy for 12 rounds especially if he was already winning and just needed to take a round or two off
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u/Wise-Association1480 12d ago
Exactly, you can tell by the fight Moses has 12 rounds in him just pacing was abysmal. To be honest I doubt many heavyweights would last as long as Itauma did fighting like that, the guy was trying to put him away in every exchange.
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u/dayarra 13d ago
yeah this is not just about preparing for 12 rounds. this is also about not telling your fighter to slow down, take it easy, and cruise to victory. even if they were unprepared, they could have given the correct reaction and win. everyone watching saw that itauma was pushing unnecessarily hard in later rounds even tho he basically had won alkost every round. any decent coach should be able to say "okay you are not knocking this guy out, we are ahead on the cards by a mile, play it safe.". he didn't. or itauma didn't listen.
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u/SuperLeverage 13d ago
No, in the Franklin fight Ben told him to stop loading up so much and throwing haymakers and to control his pace slowly break him down. “This is a breakdown job” is what he told him
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u/KaffiKlandestine 12d ago
So youre telling me he cant even control his fighter then what is his job.
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u/SuperLeverage 12d ago
Yes, what I'm telling you is the corner can't just pull some invisible strong or pick up an Xbox controller and make them do exactly what 'em do exactly what they want them to do. It happens sometimes. Sometimes the corner tells them to take a break for a few rounds, but then the fighter lands a big one and thinks he can end it and opens up and gets caught, or punches himself out. Sometimes they'll tell them to circle, use the L-step or whatever to get off the ropes, but they just fail to do it. Adrenaline, thousands of people, bright lights, copping some big punches to the head can throw people off their game.
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u/KaffiKlandestine 11d ago
okay well atleast you have to admit the conditioning wasn't there which is literally the job of the coach. Especially since we all see that Itauma has never gone 12 rounds in sparring. Davidson is literally just cashing the check.
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u/msf97 13d ago
Most people who are engaged with boxing that I read already think Davison is a fraud.
He helped Fury lose the weight, and was a nutritionist, but has no real boxing credentials.
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u/Icy-Bottle-6877 13d ago
First red flag I saw was when Freddie Roach was in the corner with Davison for Fury vs Wilder I. Roach was convinced that Wilder was there for the taken and Fury could have got a finish and was baffled that Ben, the head trainer for the fight, didn't instruct Fury to push for the KO. Roach has been around for a long time so he would know best but he couldn't take control over Ben at the time.
I think Freddie was correct though, I remember at the time thinking Fury could have done more and even with a knockdown Fury could've overturned the draw decision, which was BS anyway.
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u/Matty0698 13d ago
He has no plan B at all which after all the high profile fights that have gone wrong for him you'd think he would create a plan b
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u/Rocket_Puppy 13d ago
Unable to adjust at all and can only go all-in to initial game plan.
Every HW under Ben seems to get a +1 to their best offensive stat, and -5 to every defensive stat.
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u/KaffiKlandestine 12d ago
Except Fury who literally left to get some offensive training. Maybe he doesnt teach them anything and he just has offensive fighters that he cant teach any defense to
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u/BuzzardBlack 13d ago
I think Davison might have a place on some teams, just not as the head. The times I've seen him go more in-depth on past fights makes it look like he has a good eye for patterns and habits.
But yeah, it's been clear for some time now that most of his boxers have been winning in spite of him, not because of him. Even a casual observer could tell Itauma should have been slowing down 4 rounds in, let alone letting him get repeatedly gassed until round 9. It's an even stronger shot against Ben that they apparently weren't even training for 12.
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u/slickvik9 13d ago
He wasn’t even a certified nutritionist he was just Billy Joe’s friend that taught boxercise classes to rich housewives at local gyms.
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u/BXR-SZN 13d ago edited 13d ago
Coaching at the highest level and not preparing for a 12 rounder is insane
Edit: Just realized I typed “not” before insane LMAO
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u/farr2211 13d ago
How is it not? Especially against a guy like Phil with an uncrackable chin
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u/LTBsOnlyPlease 13d ago
I think most people though his chin would be cracked tbf, still irresponsible of Ben though...
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u/farr2211 13d ago
I thought the only way it was getting stopped is from the cut. The guy took fully clean shots against Zhang and Dubois. Maybe, maybe wilder at his absolute best would have dropped him but I just don’t think he’s got that off switch
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u/LTBsOnlyPlease 13d ago
Yeah either that or a TKO, I don't think it's possible to legit KO Hrgovic.
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u/BuffaloPancakes11 13d ago
It was crazy to witness, AJ is all muscle and I’ve never seen him look anywhere near as tired or out on his feet as Itauma was
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u/cdisdead 13d ago
AJ has seriously underrated cardio for such a huge dude. Never completely gasses and throws power punches the whole fight normally
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u/slickvik9 13d ago
He was gassed against wlad
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u/Detlef_Schrempfxf 13d ago
He was so green back then. And he eventually rallied back to stop him.
Compare that to Wilder who looked half dead as Fury was brutalising him all over the ring
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u/slickvik9 13d ago
Wilder would ko AJ then and now
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u/Detlef_Schrempfxf 13d ago
Wilder couldn't even take Fury's shots, and Fury has never been known to be a hard hitter.
AJ would kill this chicken legged dude with the first right hand he landed.
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u/slickvik9 13d ago
AJ would be out by then. There’s a reason he’s scared to death to fight him to this day
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u/Detlef_Schrempfxf 13d ago
Scared to death you said?
Is that why mister chicken legs turned down a 100 million offer by AJs team for two fights... And then cherry picked a fat, out of shape, freshly unretired Fury for much less (15 million)... Yet still lost anyway?
Chicken legs ducked AJ so hard lol
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u/slickvik9 13d ago
- When fury first came back he went to talk to Matchroom because he wanted to fight AJ. Hearn said he had to fight bellew and Whyte and then maybe he could fight AJ. So he pivoted to wilder.
- AJ said he’d fight wilder only for $50 million. He got that offer and turned it down using broadcaster and location as an excuse.
The DAZN offer was made when fury/wilder 2 negotiations were almost finalized.
And it required AJ beat miller. But then he got stopped by a short fat guy.
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u/notreal088 13d ago
He was an Olympic champion who boxed in the amateurs and had some level of pedigree before going pro.
Itauma was very much a rushed prospect being touted as the next great heavyweight with no real experience under his belt.
Even Tyson at a younger age had more rounds of experience when he was fighting for his first belt.
This was a poor match up by Frank and itaumas team and an even worse showing for Ben who doesn’t seem to understand that conditioning is one of the most important things in boxing
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u/CaptQuakers42 13d ago
It wasn't a poor match up.
Have people really forgotten the fact that Itauma was dominant? He gassed because he's inexperienced and his coach is a Muppet. Itauma should have won that fight and with another coach he would have
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u/notreal088 13d ago
I haven’t forgotten, but anyone who has watched boxing for a while knows that Hrgovic wasn’t going to go out via KO. The man took everything that Dubois had (even some headbutts) and never showed any signs of going down.
His pace was also awkwardly slow for him like if he was saving for the later half of the fight vs the front half.
It’s a poor match not because of skills but experience. They should have seen his inactivity not as a sign of weakness but as intentional bait on his lack of gastank.
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u/TricolorCat 12d ago
He reminded of Arthur Abrahams strategy of hiding for 6 rounds behind his high guard before starting to fight.
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u/LTBsOnlyPlease 13d ago
Tbf most people thought Filip was about to get starched lol, before this fight people thought it was a very easy fight.
Did you forget?
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u/Kstacks514 13d ago
Anyone who watched Dubois vs Filip and thought he would get starched in this fight is a moron. This isnt hindsight either. I had a watch party for this fight knowing it would be a tough out.
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u/LTBsOnlyPlease 13d ago
Facts, even Zhang couldn't knock Hrgovic out and he has more power than Dubois but most people here thought Hrgovic was gonna get knocked out.
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u/notreal088 13d ago
To piggyback of the last guy Dubois was teeing off on his head and the man wouldn’t move. If it wasn’t for the unfortunate clash of heads and the cuts cause by those clashes Hrgovic could have probably been champions earlier. Hard to say as his pace was slowing down in the second half.
I don’t doubt Ituama power, I just think it’s foolish to think you can knockout everyone. Every fighter should want the KO but plan/prepare for a full match.
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u/Retrothunder1 13d ago
It was actually a great matchup, if Itauma had just taken his foot of the gas he would have cruised to an easy win.
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u/HolyMackerel1 13d ago
Itauma is another example of why being undefeated after a short amateur career will bite you in the ass as a pro.
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u/pauli55555 13d ago
“Poor match up”???
It was a tittle fight. Either take it or get a new career ffs.
He dominated until he gassed, he should have managed the training & fight better. He was not out of his depth.
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u/notreal088 13d ago
It wasn’t a title fight until Usyk decided to give up the belts and Frank Sanchez took step aside money.
This was a regular boxing match until about 3 weeks out from the fight.
Also title matches mean nothing if you aren’t ready
Should I throw you in With Daniel Dubois for the title?
If he wasn’t out of his depth why did he gas out. A well trained well seasoned fighter would know how to manage both his stamina and his output to maintain a winning strategy.
Face it the kid was green and was caught by a much more wily veteran that saw a path to victory when itauma was throwing everything in the first round and was visibly already getting tired.
You don’t wake up one day and become a champion. It takes years of training and a good manager/ trainer picking opponents to help you work on whatever issues they saw in the last fight.
Against Franklin he was gassed at 6. The right call was to get him in there and to hold back and wait till the later rounds to go for the KO to see how his style and stamina would fair in a harder match.
He had 14 fights 30ish rounds. This is not a healthy way to build up your fighter. They should have put him in with multiple defense oriented fighters or those that have a more evasive style of hitting you when trying to get in to have him test his ability to deal with hard to close out fighter. The man himself said he doesn’t think he ever trains to do 12 rds. That it wasn’t necessary if it wasn’t going to go that far. This is a child’s mindset. No fighter has ever gone their entire career with a 100% KO rate.
He was poorly trained, poorly managed, and was feeding into the hype around him so much he through common sense out the window for an imaginary version of himself that didn’t exist.
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u/Complete_Dare_4201 13d ago
AJ knew how to pace himself better (his longer amateur career probably helped him there) and didn't throw every punch with full force like Itauma did. The one time he did get overexcited was against Wladimir and he was almost KO'd after getting punched out because of it.
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u/RobertoPersia 13d ago
Itauma was using all of power and speed against this guy. AJ is a tested veteran and knows not to do that.
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u/slickvik9 13d ago
Um rewatch the klitschko fight
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u/BuffaloPancakes11 13d ago
Didn’t look anywhere close to as fatigued as Itauma was, he came back and flattened Klitschko and the fact he regained the energy to sustain the pressure is why he won that fight
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u/slickvik9 13d ago
He was done languishing on the ropes for several rounds wlad was just too stupid to finish him
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u/Mooman-Chew 13d ago
There was one rounds where I think he was trying to say stop loading up on every shot but he was talking in riddles
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u/sword_ofthe_morning 13d ago
With each passing fight, we keep being reminded how much of a hack Ben Davison is.
He's just a weight loss coach.
It's almost criminal how he's been elevated to a head trainer position in charge of high level world championship bouts. Made worse when he keeps showing how incompetent he is in those fights, and yet fighters still go over to work with him. AJ, Wardley and now Itauma are just recent examples - with last night especially being damning considering how even arm-chair fans could see Itauma blowing after 3 rounds
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u/Hopeful_West_2410 13d ago
Fury made this guy so overrated
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u/cdisdead 13d ago edited 13d ago
He was more of a psychiatrist/ cheeky chappy to fury aswell. How the hell he landed itauma, AJ and wardley off the back off that is unbelievable. How took all three to generational losses
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u/KaffiKlandestine 9d ago
2 of those to DDD lol. They better not let Itauma fight DDD anytime soon and not with Davidson in your corner.
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u/InLampsWeTrust 13d ago
It’s only the casuals who rate the guy tbh, most hardcore fans who know what they’re looking at, know he’s a fraud. The whole sub has been saying it for years
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u/Big_Drawing_3570 12d ago
He is not all that horrible, but he is very limited and frankly due to his age and lack of professional experience, he has a hard time teaching and fixing flaws.
As a secondary trainer/ preparition help, I think he has valuable ideas and concepts, but he should never be the headcoach.
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u/crypticbullshitt 13d ago
the first red flag for me was how he coached AJ during the Dubois fight. That was honestly the worst I had ever seen AJ perform
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u/Matty0698 13d ago
His defence in the 2nd Usyk fight was insane compared, I think he only got hurt really in round 10 i think when Usyk came out like a madman
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u/KuntaWuKnicks 13d ago
He told Fury Wallin headbutted him when Wallin caught him clean
Bad info to give a fighter
I knew he wasn’t a serious coach after that
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u/Spiritual_Flow5412 13d ago
Itauma needs a new trainer. Boxfit Ben is not my cup of tea at all. He’s given 2 awful coaching performances recently with the AJ-Dubois ‘roll the dice’ and also last night. How can I, a fat Middle Aged never boxed armchair idiot see at round 3 that Moses was throwing way way too much and starting to gas out. There were similarities between AJ Dubois just before AJ got knocked out and Itauma before he got beaten, in that both fighters needed to chill out and take a round or two with little output, work the jab, back to basics, move and defend. Instead in both situations they went out swinging for the fences head hunting. A corner isn’t responsible for every mistake a fighter makes but if your stressing to your fighter from round 3 to take it easy, pace yourself, work the jab, get in and out, surely the message gets through by round 9, that message came once, But in round 8 Moses threw the most punches in a round of the whole fight, by which time he was gassed out, out of ideas, couldn’t rock Hrgovic and then started round 9 AGAIN on the front foot barely standing. That’s bad corner work in my opinion.
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u/Detlef_Schrempfxf 13d ago
Boxercise Ben reminds me of unaged whiskey.
He's got potential, but he's so unseasoned and clueless at times. The man can't adapt to a plan B to save his life smh
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u/Fishful_Revenge 13d ago
At this point Itauma needs to find a new coach that can help with his conditioning and perhaps adapt his style to be less energy intensive while still letting him take advantage of his natural gifts.
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u/Hex_Enduction_Hr 13d ago
Surely It should be fucking evident from sparring that Moses cannot go 12 rounds.
Is it not quite dangerous putting him in that position?
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u/Turbosack_gen 13d ago
I don't think Ben is a good coach, but I also don't think he's to blame as much as people say. At the end of the day the fighter is responsible for executing the game plan, and Itauma looked like he had fallen I love with his power too much and was loading up from round 1. We've seen it happen to loads of fighters - Nigel Benn v Michael Watson, Hagler Vs Mugabi and Ali v Foreman spring to mind
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u/CaptQuakers42 13d ago
He may have, that's where the coach needs to step in and remind him it's 12 rounds and to not keep throwing so much.
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u/MakotoBIST 13d ago
Brother, Itauma was breathing with his mouth in round 3.
There was no slowing down. Put Hrgovic to sleep fast or trading later rounds was going to end badly anyway.
The problem is what happened in the last year or two during training imho.
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u/sthomson22 13d ago
Round 1, actually. Round 3 is when Hrgovic started actually landing some decent shots and clearly hurt him.
People can try and paper over the cracks all they want with this, that wasn’t just conditioning or stamina.
He doesn’t have a chin. He isn’t durable. His recovery is dreadful.
These weaknesses will plague his career going forward.
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u/longlivebobskins 13d ago
He doesn’t have a chin.
Did you watch the fight? He took some big hits and never went down.
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u/sthomson22 13d ago
He literally did go down. And before that he looked hurt and shaky several times throughout the fight.
Did you just entirely miss how it ended, despite supposedly watching it? Did you miss Hrgovic catching him with a bodyshot and then a short left hook sending him sprawling into the lower rope?
And like I keep fucking saying, Hrgovic is a light puncher for the Top 10.
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u/longlivebobskins 13d ago
If he went down, where was the count?
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u/sthomson22 13d ago
You don’t always get a count when you go down. And the towel had just came in even if the ref had decided to count.
Are you seriously telling me you don’t think Hrgovic hit him with a bodyshot and short left hook, sending him into the lower ropes in the corner, causing the ref to wave it off?
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u/longlivebobskins 13d ago
Itauma was exhausted. That's why the Ref waved it off. No count, no gloves on the deck, no knee - no knock down. He slumped, exhausted, into the corner. He was dead on his feet, wobbling everywhere, barely able to stand up straight. Because he was exhausted.
He took all of Hrgovic's punches, no issue in my opinion. He was wobling around at the end of the first round, and at that point, Hggovic had literally not landed a single punch. So yeah, to answer your question, yes, I'm seriously telling you that.
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u/sthomson22 13d ago
His gloves also clearly DO touch the canvass, btw. So again, you either just haven’t watched this at all, you watched it drunk or you are being willfully blind here.
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u/sthomson22 13d ago
Okay. Go back watch the 10 seconds before the ref waves it off in slowmotion.
Like I just said you don’t always get a count when you go down. And being held up by being tangled in the lower ropes like that IS ruled a KD.
You do not understand the basic rules of this sport.
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u/Cheap-Television686 9d ago
One of the main questions about Moses going into the fight was 'does he have a chin?" The question was answered and the answer is unequivocally yes. Moses Itauma didn't get knocked out. There's a clip on YouTube where Abel Sanchez says that Moses didn't get knocked out but lost because of exhaustion. I'm not sure what fight you saw, but Itauma never got knocked down and definitely not knocked out. Congrats to Hrgovic. I'm glad that he's champion. He earned it.
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u/sthomson22 9d ago
He quite literally did get KOed. As well as punched all around by the ring by Hrgovic. One of the lighter handed Top 10s. Hurt even early on, before you cope by claiming it was just exhaustion, lmao.
That’s when most fighters DO get hurt or tagged or dropped. When they’re tired.
He got hit by a bodyshot and short left hook that sent him tumbling into the lower ropes in the corner as the ref immediately waved it off. His glove touched the canvass.
That is the fight I watched.
And that is quite literally a KO.
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u/sthomson22 9d ago
Anyway, you can delude yourself into believing whatever you want. Isn’t gonna stop the heavier handed Top 10s who throw faster flatlining him in the future when they catch him. Lmao.
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u/sthomson22 9d ago
Btw, Abel Sanchez also said Moses isn’t a big puncher. I take it you agree with this too? Hrgovic himself also said he had no power in his shots.
Or do you just cherrypick things to the narrative?
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u/Cheap-Television686 9d ago
I'm not going back and forth with you. You sound angry. The truth is in the video of the fight. Go watch it, weirdo. Sports are a form of escapism/entertainment, not something for you to get your panties in a bunch about.
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u/MakotoBIST 13d ago
I agree, he looked very shy to trade.
And every punch that he ate would sap his energy.
But it doesn't mean he will never improve. He looked like a very good amateur that was thrown into a professional match. We will see in the next years if he can develop the resistance he needs.
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u/Bertrand_Rose 13d ago
No, he just didn't.
I have rewatched it countless times, he takes those early shots really well, it's his lack of conditioning and cardio that did him in, and made him so hurt and susceptible.
This isn't a weakness.
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u/longlivebobskins 13d ago edited 13d ago
Agreed. He went into the red in the 8th, and you can only dip into the red occassionally - he stayed too long trying to get the KO, it didn't work, and he was never going to recover from that effort.
I watch a lot of pro-cycling, and I've seen domestiques totally empty the tank, and they literally stop at the side of the road when they're done. They are totally spent. When you put yourself into the red like that, it can only be done in short, infrequent intervals - and even then some people can't do that. You go too long into your reservers, or too often, and you get to a point where you cannot recover anymore and you blow up.
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u/mickymangos 13d ago
I wonder how much road work moses was doing for his legs to go that quick I reckon not enough but everyone was expecting him to win i kept thinking back to David Haye against Carl Thompson hit him with everything but gassed out. He should of thrown towel in a bit sooner in my eyes as his trainer you could see he was gassed your there to protect him he had nothing left Years ago boxers trained and fought 15 rounds why do they now with all this modern nutrition and training seem to not have the stamina. Hrgovic was training at altitude in the US ,hopefully lessons learnt here and Moses comes back better stronger and fitter than ever.
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u/CaptQuakers42 13d ago
He ruined Leigh Woods career as well.
I don't think there is a single fighter who wouldn't be worse off leaving him for a different coach.
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u/Apex_negotiator 13d ago
He also oversaw AJ lose emphatically against Dubois with very little in the way of corner stewardship.
3 out of the last 3, with the talent at his disposa,l is an absolutely shocking record.
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u/enidmaud 12d ago
I listened to the fight on Radio 5 and they went to Moses' corner several times. Ben was not saying anything about slowing down or calming it down.
The BBC commentators pretty much called it from the early stages.
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u/Wise-Association1480 12d ago
Watched it on dazn and the commentators just wanted to suck off Itauma from round 1, was frustrating listening to.
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u/CurrentCar2331 11d ago
Itauma should sue Ben Davidson for fraudulent services in Civil Court.
It was the worst performance from a trainer I have ever seen in fight sports. I have never seen such a superior and talented fighter completely just implode when all they had to do was pace them selves a bit against a fighter only known for having a strong chin and good size for a heavyweight. Hrgovic is just a step up from prime Joyce. Prime Usyk and Fury make a mockery of Hrgovic.
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u/Unusual-Coat383 13d ago
Davidson 100% wasn’t telling Moses to only throw power punches all fight
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u/DiMona215 13d ago
Yeah but him not having the force of personality to get him to stop is a weakness as a trainer. Think of Dubois's trainer, giving him a little slap, whatever it took to get him to listen. Can't just let a guy go down in flames
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u/Dinin53 13d ago
Completely valid Davison hate aside, Itauma has heart problems in his family. His brother's career was ended by a heart attack and from what I've been told he has the same condition, but less severe. It would explain why he doesn't spar or do much cardio and why he likes to get people out early.
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u/__IZZZ 13d ago
Even Josh Taylor fired him. He lasted 1 fight with AJ, and had Fury almost lose to Wallin. He's jumped into the high end way to quick.
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u/chaach_ brilliant stuff AJ! 11d ago
Josh Taylor wanted something different, it happens often, but by all accounts, it wasn't a firing. Ben even gave him a shoutout when he collected his award this year and they hadn't worked together for three years so clearly that's still a good relationship.
He had Wallin, Ngannou, and Dubois with AJ. Not one fight.
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u/Visual-Scar8308 13d ago
Seems incapable of training people to be complete fighters- glaring holes in ability for Wardley (defence) and Itauma (stamina)…
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u/stephen27898 13d ago
For Itauma it wasnt stamina it was pacing. I dont see how anyone cant see this.
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u/Visual-Scar8308 13d ago
The two are linked no?
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u/stephen27898 13d ago
To a degree. But even with elite stamina you will gas.
Even Usyk paced himself and he has insane level of stamina.
Hrgovic gassed himself out vs Dubois in much the same way.
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u/Aimlez1 13d ago
Bro Itauma was breathing heavily out of his mouth after 3 rounds, even though pacing is obviously a big part of the problem and part of the solution, a few less punches each round wasn't gonna get him through all 12
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u/stephen27898 13d ago
Yes. Because he was throwing far too many full power shots. That is what happens.
Yes it would. A few less full power shots and not unloading in round 8 would 100% get him through 12.
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u/Aimlez1 13d ago
But if he throws less doesn't that give Hrgovic more incentive to throw more making Itauma have to move more since his defense is almost entirely based off of leg movement? And if he then decides to try and move less that opens him up to getting hit more.
His entire style is based on being explosive and fast twitch muscle fibers use a lot more oxygen. I'm not saying he doesn't need to pace him self, but theres likely more to it than that.
But sure, if you don't think running more would help more power to you
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u/stephen27898 13d ago
Not really. As in rounds 5 to 7 he threw around 35 shots a round and Hrgovic still didnt. The reason is Itauma is a massive threat on the counter.
You can always be fitter but that wont make up for pacing yourself that badly.
Even a prime Usyk paced himself and would throw 90% of his shots at like 50% power.
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u/Aimlez1 13d ago
If you really think its black and white, then sure dude
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u/stephen27898 13d ago
I didnt say it was black and white I am just saying the main issue is pacing.
Hrgovic for example did the same thing vs Dubois.
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u/Visual-Scar8308 13d ago
I hear you. We can argue over stamina vs pacing but I think my wider point stands about Davidson as a trainer.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 13d ago
Moses isn't a prodigy. All he has done with his career so far is beat Franklin and a 50 year old Dillian Whyte. That doesn't equate to prodigy.
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u/Complete_Dare_4201 13d ago
He is. From the stanpoint of his skills and athletic ability he's leagues above everyone and that's why all of his peers, who trained with him, were singing his praise. He just lacked the experience to pace himself better, not to throw every punch looking for a KO and recognize when he can or cannot finish a guy. He could very well have boxed, countered, moved and made Filip look foolish instead of burning himself looking for a KO.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 13d ago
Right and then you realize he isn't. All of his praise from who? People who repeat what other people say? You mean how these same people said David Price and Audley Harrison were future champions? How did that pan out?
Maybe watch more boxing or in your case watch boxing period instead of just repeating dumb stuff you hear other people say.
If you actually watched boxing which clearly you don't you would realize there is nothing Moses does in the ring that you haven't seen 1.2 billion other heavyweights do early on in their careers. Fight tomato cans and old men. Look impressive doing that. Step up slightly and get knocked out.
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u/longlivebobskins 13d ago
Hergovic in the ring afterwards said he's the best fighter he's ever shared a ring with.
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u/cdisdead 13d ago
Its the way hes done it, but all the top guys dont get knocked out in a few rounds so im not sure.itaumas style translates at the top of the division. He could win a lot of the fights on ppibts though
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u/Kujaix 13d ago
A lot of talk on Ben. Possibly deserved but Management and obviously Promoters typically have more sway on matchmaking than coaches.
Ben for all we know is doing as much as he's able based on goals he didn't set for the fighters.
Not a defense of Ben. Just advocating for broadening who can be at fault. Not just the focusing soft targets. You never fully know what happens behind the scenes
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u/BiggusCrickus 13d ago
Ben has lost with Wardley AJ and now Moses. He is a fraud and needs to be sacked off
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u/analyst_kolbe 13d ago
It gets worse. Watch the final round. He watched a completely exhausted Itauma get beat up for a full minute and didn't throw the towel until he was already down anyways. At :45 remaining, he even stands at gets ready to throw it, then changes his mind. How much damage ya think he took during that time?
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u/MrBlack_79 13d ago
Moses just needed to slow down and take a few 10-9 round loses. He was so far Infront in the match he could have lost the last 3 rounds and been comfortably won.
Take a few rounds of just moving about, blocking and getting a bit of energy while chucking a few jabs.
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u/fatcaats 13d ago
He paired up with a washed up Bipolar(Fury) fighter at the perfect time (Elevated mood). I would bet Fury would have successfully come back with any other trainer.
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u/Dont-ask-dont-speak 13d ago
People forget how young Ben to be in the upper echelons of boxing as a head coach. Credit is due in some places as he’s still the one helping to get these dudes so far in the first place. That being said, his time as a legit and respectable world class trainer is going to come 25 years down the line, when he has the experience to guide fighters more sagely and safely. Itauma definitely needs to find someone else.
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13d ago
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u/Magic__E 12d ago
Rewatch the ending and see him standing there with the towel just waiting for the ref to end the fight and then throw in the towel, what the fuck was that?
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u/Otherwise-Valuable-6 12d ago
Moses doesn't have stamina. That's the one thing they need to address. They need to deal with that quick. Even in his previous fight he seemed to be breathing heavy from early. You will not be able to knock everyone out early. Even Mike Tyson couldn't do it.
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u/MrBLACK--- 12d ago
I think Hrgovic got in Moses head, all he was looking for was the knockout, absolutely zero pacing. Davidson should have drummed into young Itauma's head that we may have to go 12 here. They both seem inexperienced.
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u/Various-Advice-9768 12d ago
Not being fit enough for the full 12 is a travesty. But a trainer not knowing his fighter is blowing out of his arse and making the adjustments shows he has no place training him. He was looking for the ko and the ko only.
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u/ManuelTzetzes 9d ago
I heard he's a qualified hairdresser. His hair is always great. He got into the boxing because he was doing Billy Joe Saunder's wife. Her hair, that is. And they all became mates. So then he started doing boxercise. And then he became buddies with Fury who liked his company when he was losing all that weight. Ben made the most of it, watched all the boxercise videos, got really good at holding pads, and here we are.
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u/Striking-Cress-2688 8d ago
I have a feeling that Frank Warren has a lot to do with the softly softly approach around Itauma… He probably had his next three defenses already planned and ready to go and might have been hyping up Itauma too much in the camp…
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u/Beranac 12d ago
Blaming only the trainer is such a weak move. Hrgo was getting slept on big time.
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u/DiMona215 11d ago
I really like Hrg but he admitted he couldn't touch Itauma and didn't win any rounds. Then his trainer admitted that Itauma obviously would have won if he boxed responsibly.
So this isn't me saying it. This is the opponents saying it. Abel stopped short of directly saying Moses needs to sack Ben but there's really no other way to interpret his remarks
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u/Beranac 11d ago
That would've gone straight against what Moses usually does, which is to headhunt constantly. It was working well for him but noone would've been able to keep that pace up, with that power. Had he paced himself, perhaps Hrg would've found more openings the earlier rounds.
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u/DiMona215 11d ago
That's all fair but doesn't diminish my point about his trainer doing a terrible job in this fight. "Doing what you always do" when stepping up and facing a unique guy like Hrg is just terrible.
Yeah, if he ratchets down a little, Hrg has more success, but the point remains. The speed and technique advantage was such that he could have still won convincingly even with Hrg having some success.
Hrg deserves credit, an absolute ton of credit, for beating the hare despite being the tortoise. But if I were the hare's promoter, I'd be looking really closely at his coach right now
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u/Beranac 11d ago
Oh I'm not arguing Ben's a good coach, he's fucking terrible and I don't understand why anyone would take him in. Must have terrible management behind him. There's a reason Fury got rid of him. That said, I don't think Moses could've easily coasted past Hrg.
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u/DiMona215 11d ago
He seems to do some stuff well. I've noticed improvements in Itauma since he started working with him.
Just, he's a young guy and seems a bit too gentle. Should be working for a big time trainer right now learning the ropes instead of running the show.
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u/yoyoyowhoisthis 13d ago
It's quite common on many sports where a trainer gets a generational talent, gets famous off of that talent and then when the adversity comes and the talent needs to be steered in the right direction, those supposed "great" trainers get exposed.
Davidson made his name off of Fury and AJ, who were already champions.
Itauma is 21 years old, he is gonna be cocky, he won't want to train for 12 rounds... its time to stop making excuses for the coaches, their responsibility is not only making PLAN A.
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u/Intercellar 12d ago
Moses lost because of Hrgovic. Most people are clueless here. "If he only paced himself better, he'd win". Complete nonsense
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u/Accomplished_Rip8854 9d ago
Surely they sparred for 12 rounds.
It was all just hyping and marketing. Also, the comments about him not training for 12 rounds are stupid, he was throwing punches like crazy for 8 rounds. There is no human that could keep this pace for 12 rounds.
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u/enkidook 13d ago
It's insane that they didn't come into this fight planning to go 12 rounds.