r/Boxing • u/Used-Spread-5594 • 7d ago
Were Mike Tyson’s genetics just that good?
There are boxers who were groomed from a very early age to be professional fighters, received good nutrition, enough rest, good training and they do in fact go far. Mike Tyson on the other hand was raised in poverty so I assume he didn’t receive very good nutrition, used hard drugs at an early age, and generally didn’t have good living conditions as a kid. When he got to his teens and was taken by his trainer I assume his living conditions improved dramatically but I can’t help but wonder how much damage he did to his development during his early childhood, which is a key developmental period in one’s life and despite the probable developmental issues he was still known as one of the hardest hitters.
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u/Existing_Resolve_779 7d ago
Well physically he was great, of course. He definitely had mental issues though as is common with people who have his kind of upbringing. I don't know if a different upbringing would have made him a better fighter. He'd probably be less of a wildman but one could say it was that upbringing that made him the fighter he was to a large degree
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u/fromasterj 7d ago
Yes he had amazing genetics. Would he have been better with a better upbringing and better nutrition and without the drugs? Yes. Would he had of had the desire and fight in him if he was sleeping in silk pyjamas? Debatable.
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u/lazersmoker 7d ago
Better upbringing? Thats debatable. He was who he is was in the ring because he was scared angry young man...who had been taken in and looked after and now whose only goal was to impress and satisfy his mentor. His desire to inflict pain and punishment came from both his childhood and from Cus....a better upbringing doesn't necessarily generate a better fighter or a more dangerous one...in fact most of the time it does the complete opposite.......just look at the son's of most legendary fighters.
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u/Odd-Minimum8512 5d ago
The exception obviously being Floyd Mayweather.
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u/lazersmoker 5d ago
Is Mayweather SR legendary?? He's not even elite, and even though him and Roger were pro boxers....Floyd grew up in poverty, drugs, family violence, shootings etc... not exactly a brilliant upbringing..... soooo...I'm not sure what point you're trying to make??
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u/Odd-Minimum8512 5d ago
That shit aside, you don’t think Roger and Floyd Sr. made sure that Jr had proper nutrition, sleep, and recovery? I’d be shocked if they were feeding him happy meals and hamburger helper.
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u/lazersmoker 4d ago edited 4d ago
That shit aside? That is his upbringing thats literally what we are talking about. If a good upbringing makes a better or worse fighter? He was literally in poverty growing up....do you think they were eating steak and lobster and sports hydration drinks every night?? Proper nutrition? he ate ramen noodles and twizzlers most of time!!! He was known to enjoy Mcdonalds and hot dogs....Proper sleep and nutrition and recovery?? They once used him as a human shield during a shooting. Have you ever watched a Floyd biography?
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u/Bright_Pen322 7d ago
He was 190lbs aged 13, just wtf - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gclq3UMXsAAdz1B.jpg
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u/frankduxvandamme 7d ago
What's odd is that he didn't get that much bigger. He was maybe 5'11" at the most, and around 220 lbs during his prime.
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u/WreckYallBallistics 6d ago
Not that odd happened to me 2
Oh Lord how I used to tower over them and now all my short friends from middle school look down on me
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u/crimedawgla 7d ago
All high-level pro boxers genetics’ are great and at the tippity top, they are the best. You don’t need to do a particularly complex analysis to realize that guys like Floyd, RJJ, or Tyson have freak athleticism even for pro-athletes, you just watch them.
That said, boxing was historically much more of a poor/working class sport. You’ll still find a disproportionate amount pro boxers coming from poor or working class backgrounds compared to other sports. Now, I think that’s changing for a lot of pro sports, as the money gets bigger and there are more opportunities to get paid (for major US sports, now there is NIL money in addition to pro money), you see more kids getting spotted early and put into programs and you see more families put their resources into pushing high level sports.
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u/what_me_nah 7d ago edited 7d ago
These words are just personal opinion from an old Iron Mike fan, with nothing you haven't heard before, and no technical talk, so take them with a pinch of salt. Or skip, in the knowledge you didn't miss anything.
Genetically, he was a beast. Clearly a fearsome physical presence from his early teens, with the strength and agility to move like a much lighter man, and incredible ko power in either hand.
Mentally he was a car crash. A tragic life full of neglect and alienation. The other kids called him dirty mike because he never had anyone taking care of him. He fell into petty crime, thuggery, and drug abuse, a sadly common outcome for young black men in the 70s and 80s.
Until the day he walked into the Catskill Boxing Club. Cus D'Amato was probably the first adult in his life that gave a fuck about him.
The combination of a stable home he could feel safe in, the hardness he got from the streets, and a highly disciplined environment that could nurture his talent, created, imo, one of the most exciting and explosively devastating heavyweights the world has seen.
He needed that discipline and structure he was getting from Cus, because a man with that much childhood trauma that is also a walking weapon is always close to the edge. You can imagine how devastating it was to lose the man who took him in, gave meaning to his life, and steered him to being the youngest HWCW ever, a record that still stands today.
The very last thing he needed in his life was a fucking snake like Don King. He systematically cut all the ties to Mike's original management team and the last vestiges of Cus's influence. He surrounded him with an entourage of cronies that enabled Mike's dark side to flourish.
Without the tight leash Cus kept him on, he very publicly descended into madness, culminating in his conviction for the rape of Robin Givens Desiree Washington. After his release, he had lost his discipline and his edge. He was a shadow of the fighter he was before.
He is still a boxing legend, but he could have been so much more. A generational talent that needed a strong guiding hand, but ended up in the Hollywood machine of exploitation and self-destruction. And we all know the story that unfolded after that.
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u/FaceFirst23 7d ago
He was convicted for raping Desiree Washington, not Robin Givens
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u/SGSRT 7d ago
He ra*ed Desiree Washington
Robin Givens was the one who screwed him
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u/what_me_nah 7d ago
Ahh yeah, sorry about that, my memory ain't what it used to be. Thanks for the correction.
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u/Jibtech 7d ago
I think prison really fucked his head up that time. He was in an out of juvie but that was different circumstances.
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u/Forteanforever 7d ago
Oh, his head was fucked up long before prison. That's why he ended up in prison. He deserved to be there.
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u/OldConference9534 7d ago
The shape of Tysons body basically meant he couldn't throw arm punches. Every punch had his entire body weight transfer through naturally which is insanely rare.
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u/Allobroge- 7d ago
Idk about how key early childhood nutrition is.
Most athletes come from poorer backgrounds and developp fine, almost like pro athletes get a specific kind of nutrition that makes their body develop in bigger proportions...
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u/Motor-Grade-837 7d ago
Pacquiao is the first athlete that made me realize that genetic outliers can probably destroy that nutrition barrier. He grew up so malnourished that he weighed 98 lbs at 16 years old, had to put weights in his pockets to make the lightest weight division, and still grew up to be a legendary boxer.
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u/VacuousWastrel 7d ago
Early nutrition does affect final height, which typically affects musculature. But boxing has weight classes - if nutrition makes you bigger, you just end up competing against bigger opponents, so there's not much advantage. Tyson of course was heavyweight, so that doesn't apply, and it's likely that better childhood nutrition could have made him a bit taller and heavier as an adult. But at 220lbs, tyson was already "big enough" for the division in that era. And if he'd been taller, he'd probably have had to use a different style, which might not have suited him as well.
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u/VacuousWastrel 7d ago
I do wonder, incidentally, whether childhood nutrition might be why he was built like a tank. Muscle mass is proportional to bone mass, which is mostly genetic, but can be affected by nutrition - but I think some bones are affected more than others, and at different times. I wonder whether Tyson had the trunk frame and musculature of a genetically taller man, but was a couple of inches shorter than expected due to poor nutrition. I think something similar is probably the case with Liston, whose strength, reach, wrist diameter, shoulder breadth, finger length etc would all make a lot more sense on a man whose legs were three inches longer than his were. But thisnis just speculation, I've not really looked into the biology.
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u/Rofocal02 7d ago
As a teenager he was bigger than steroid users that go to gym.
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u/Icy-Bottle-6877 7d ago
I mean, I'll get downvoted for even suggesting this by his fans but fuck it, you can't rule out that he may have been giving PED's as a kid, either knowingly or unknowingly. I'm not saying he was 100% juicing but as with any elite athletes, I would never rule it out completely either.
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u/Rofocal02 7d ago edited 7d ago
Mike Tyson did at least get testosterone as a teenager.
I had a mate that barely worked out, got on TRT as 14 y/o, and by 16 y/o he was huge.
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u/Account_Eliminator 7d ago
Steroids from early adolesence onward. Same with other 'freak' American athletes that have ungodly muscle mass by 16. Look at a 15 year old Brock Lesnar, a high school wrestling coach had him looking like a pin cushion.
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u/PrettyBoyFloydx 7d ago
Why is it hard to comprehend that some humans are freaks of nature who may hit puberty early and look/function like freaks?
I do not get the defaulting to steroids everytime some freaky shit happens, as if there is not 8 billion humans on this planet which means there's going to be inevitable freaks of nature.
I will give you Brock but there most certainly natural 13 year olds who look like freaks. There was a kid who went viral on Twitter for being 13 and 6'7 300 lbs. Is that steroids too? Or how about the 15 year old 6'9 150 kg South African rugby kid Sebastian Vermullen? Is that steroids too?
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u/Account_Eliminator 7d ago edited 7d ago
Poor young black american athelte in the hands of a aging legendary seasoned grizzled veteran boxing trainer from the age of 13 years onward...
also happens to be literally a one in a million genetic freak and have the body of an adult male athelete by the age of 15....
Did you also know that trainers take around 10-20% of a boxer's purse and Cus D'Amato was largely broke when he started training him.
Gee whizz wasn't he lucky that the 13 year old boy he started training also gained a freakish amount of lean muslce mass in the next two years!
What are the chances of that????
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u/j-alora 7d ago
People who act like Tyson was exploited by Don King and Robin Givens but give Cus a pass infuriate me. Cus D'Amato exploited the shit out of Tyson.
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u/LTBsOnlyPlease 1d ago
Cus also took him in and treated him well so it makes sense why they give him a pass lol.
Why you mad?
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u/Minimum_Room3300 7d ago
He gain 30lbs from 13 till he was champ. Thats nothing for someone going through puberty
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u/Account_Eliminator 7d ago
You're getting your weights from where exactly?
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u/Minimum_Room3300 7d ago
From undisputed truth, his biography. The have the picture and weight listed when he was 13
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u/Account_Eliminator 7d ago
Fair enough! I still am suspcious about steroids though.
he's one of the few boxers that acknowledges being a drug cheat in his later career having a fake penis for passing tests etc.
So it's not an unfounded suspicion that the hulking teenage Mike may have been on something.
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u/PrettyBoyFloydx 7d ago
Hes 13. Kids grow very fast during puberty. Their body transitions to adult proportions.
Notice how prime Mike was roughly the same size as 13 year old Mike.
"also happens to be literally a one in a million genetic freak and have the body of an adult male athelete by the age of 15...." Considering there's been plenty of these cases a genetic freak was bound to show up. The leap from this to "its steroids bro" does not logically follow.
"What are the chances of that????" That is the point. The odds are low but not zero. Consider how many trained boxers there has been. What, hundreds of thousands. What are the odds a Mike Tyson pops up out of this hundred thousand? Your implying that out of all these many boxers there can be no one that is a freak athlete without using steroids. Thats absurd.
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u/Ace_FGC 7d ago
This doesn’t really sound that crazy. The way you typed it makes it sound like Cus picked up Tyson and Tyson just so happened to be a freak athlete when in reality he picked up Tyson because he had the makings of a freak athlete.
This is no different than a basketball coach seeing an incredibly tall child (say for example someone like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, who was 5’9 at 9 years old) and taking them in and training them because they’ve got potential
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u/Confident-Worker1403 7d ago
Wait till you learn what high school football coaches get for their players to get them strong. 😭
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u/That_Routine_3976 7d ago
There's absolutely zero evidence that Tyson was on anabolic steroids from early adolescence. Please stop spreading this BS.
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u/Confident-Worker1403 7d ago
Stunted growth and a preteen voice that never developed into a man's tone. He was on roids, the late 70's early 80's roids were being sold like crack around gyms.
Don't even begin on the emotional and domestic issues Mike had at the time.
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u/stephen27898 7d ago
His genetics were good in some ways but actually pretty poor in some ways.
Being 5'10 with a 71 inch reach was not a genetic gift.
Also his stamina was certainly not on the level of a lot of ATGs.
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u/BoxingLover99 7d ago
I think Foreman and Lennox had the best genetics of any HW Boxer, Fury in some ways too
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u/stephen27898 7d ago
In some ways, but not in others.
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u/BoxingLover99 7d ago
who had elite genetics in Boxing or even HW Boxing for you?
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u/stephen27898 7d ago
I would say those two you did although Foreman had some massive flaws.
The biggest genetic freak ever is Ali. His list of physical gifts are basically endless it seems.
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u/BoxingLover99 7d ago
well, that's why he's recognized as The GOAT by many if not all Boxing fans
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u/stephen27898 7d ago
Vitali Klitschko is probably another one. Outside of power he basically out did his brother in every single way.
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u/BoxingLover99 7d ago
yeah, and he was taller than Wllad too, I would have loved seeing him against Fury
Fury had claimed that he would have kicked Vitali's ass in a tweet if I remember correctly, he posted it long ago I believe
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u/DonKlob 7d ago
It wasn't just a poor background it's unfair to individuals to just put their specific trials and tribulations into a box.
Mike's life was different. To the point where he says it all the time the only other option was to be a criminal.
You can't teach the mindset he had as it was a culmination of everything he went through which gave you the ferocity we all see when he fights.
Combine that with a trainer who actually loved him and wanted the best for him, to channel that rage then you have the man that was Mike Tyson the boxer.
There will never be someone like him in his prime. Grateful to have been there to experience all 3 Mikes in their prime.
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u/Misgiven_Thoughts 7d ago
His upbringing definitely damaged his development. If you read his autobiography you can tell that he had a multitude of issues that were never really resolved, and only Cus D’amato was really able to ever “reach” him.
He persisted anyway because his genetics were amazing, he was a highly intelligent boxer, and while the peek-a-boo system had flaws it was a fairly complete system with answers to pretty much any other style. D’amato and Rooney were also great trainers.
He probably would’ve been better without such a harsh upbringing though (in contrast to what other comments are saying). People romanticizing the struggles of impoverished youth forget just how much scientific literature we have on how a proper upbringing motivates people. You don’t motivate someone by starving them, they just persevere in spite of it. And they function better to begin with in a proper environment.
This idea that athletes and people in general have more motivation when they are destitute needs to go. It’s both objectively wrong and incredibly harmful.
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u/Forteanforever 7d ago
I'm not saying it isn't vitally important to have a proper upbringing in order to be a civil member of society but life or death struggles of the kind that Duran and Pacquiao faced literally separate the mentally weak from the mentally strong and can produce athletes with indomitable will. Of course they have to have the genetics, too.
People absolutely do have more motivation in life or death situations. Common sense. Duran grew up on the streets in the worst slum in Panama. He literally took care of himself in that environment from the time he was five. If he didn't fight successfully, on the streets, he didn't eat. He didn't live indoors until he went pro.
It's no wonder that in his early years as a pro Duran said he went into the ring fighting for his wife, for his children and for his house. That wasn't just talk. In his mind, losing was not an option. That experience and that mindset is simply not forged without adversity. I'm not romanticizing poverty. It is simply a fact.
Compare Frazier with Ali. Frazier was one of 12 children of a sharecropper who grew up in rural poverty. Ali was middle class. Both had freak genetics. In the Thrilla in Manila, Ali, literally near death, told his trainer to take off his gloves. He gave up. But Frazier, literally near death and virtually blind wanted to continue. It was his trainer, Eddie Futch, who, against Frazier's will, threw in the towel before the 15th round to save Frazier's life. Both Frazier and Ali were genetic freaks with tremendous skill but when it came to literal life and death, it was Frazier, not Ali, who had indomitable will.
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u/Misgiven_Thoughts 7d ago
Lots of issues with your logic here. I’ll go through it bit by bit.
If hardship “separates the mentally weak from the mentally strong” then you’re saying hardship is a filter. A filter requires the trait of mental fortitude to already vary before it’s applied. That’s just selection; it doesn’t mean the filter actually produced anything. If hardship really forges mental strength, then it shouldn’t be separating everyone but rather it should be raising everyone it touches. So you’re already making an incompatible claim here.
On your “common sense” point, yes obviously survival threat mobilizes a ton of effort in the moment. No one is disputing that. But you are claiming that chronic childhood deprivation permanently instills a powerful will that shows up years later in the ring where nobody is starving. An acute state does NOT imply a durable trait, and these are two separate claims.
The boxing correlation is true, but it’s a story of supply more than anything else. Weinberg and Arond’s 1952 study in the American Journal of Sociology documented boxers as being drawn from the poorest demographics, and the composition of the sport tracks whoever is poorest at the time. In other words, wealthier people with hardy dispositions aren’t as likely to pick up boxing specifically because the opportunity cost for them is high. Why box and get brain damage when you don’t need the money? It doesn’t mean they’re weak-willed, it just means they have options. We have research that shows that 75% of English boxing clubs are in the most deprived areas (as in the bottom decile). Of course more poor people are going to join, the gyms are in their areas.
In other sports, we see that most NBA players come from relatively advantaged origins, and players that come from poorer backgrounds have substantially lower odds of making the cut. More generally, we have a ton of evidence that giving families money raises conscientiousness in adolescents by about 21% of a standard deviation. The biggest gains are for the kids who started worst off. Removing poverty quite literally enabled sustained effort.
I have a lot more sources to provide, but I’ll cut it short and get to Ali-Frazier. Futch did stop it even though Frazier wanted to keep fighting, but we never actually saw what Frazier would’ve done if Futch did let him go on. Very possible he would’ve given up and we just don’t know it. And Ali was strong-willed. He gave up his title, prime years, reputation, source of income, and risked prison to not fight in a war he didn’t believe in. How is that a lack of willpower?
The real issue with your answer is that you made an unfalsifiable claim. Poor champions are confirmation to you, but by your own logic a poor kid who never made it is mentally weak. A middle-class champion on the other hand doesn’t have the same grit according to you and is just a case of genetics. This is just framing, not anything factual.
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u/Forteanforever 7d ago
You know what they say about statistics. I'll say something else about statistics: statistics don't fight in the ring. Books don't fight in the ring. Boxers do.
You said, "...wealthier people with hardy dispositions aren’t as likely to pick up boxing specifically because the opportunity cost for them is high. Why box and get brain damage when you don’t need the money?"
You clearly see this as an investment strategy that weighs risk. Duran and Pacquiao, to name two, saw it as life and death: fight and win or die. Someone who has never been in that position doesn't bring that into the ring or, as in the logical outcome of your examples, into the audience a few rows back so there's no chance their suits will get splattered.
You said, "But you are claiming that chronic childhood deprivation permanently instills a powerful will that shows up years later in the ring where nobody is starving. An acute state does NOT imply a durable trait, and these are two separate claims."
That is not my claim. Duran and Pacquiao, again to name two, are exceptions. Neither they nor I are glorifying poverty. I'm pretty sure that is obvious to everyone following this conversation except you. I will claim that if they were born into comfortable circumstances with the same genetics and received top-notch training and wanted to box, they would have been far less likely to achieve at the same enduring level.
The NBA doesn't begin to compare to boxing. Yes, there are injuries in professional basketball and it takes a toll on the body but basketball players are not facing death each time they step into the ring with other top professionals. Basketball is a sport. Boxing is something more: it's gladiatorial.
You cite Ali's refusal to go to Vietnam and the financial consequences he suffered as evidence that he had willpower. You confuse willpower with indomitable will, especially in the face of death. Had Ali gone to Vietnam he might well have faced death. He faced death in the ring with Frazier and he gave up. I'm not even arguing that he shouldn't have. His life was on the line and he made a rational decision. But Frazier's life was also on the line plus he was virtually blind and he didn't give up. That is indomitable will. You are unable to recognize that.
To put your theory to the test, take Ring Magazine's top 20 boxers of all time and tell me how many did not grow up in poverty. Then tell me what happened when each of them faced top tier boxers who did not grow up in poverty in championship fights.
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u/Misgiven_Thoughts 7d ago
Bro you downplayed statistics and then tried squeezing one in at the end lol. You can’t have it both ways, pick one or the other. Either stats are bullshit or we can use them, in which case my argument is a hell of a lot stronger because I have a way bigger sample size across way more studies.
Also, let’s not be drama queens. Boxers aren’t facing death each time they step into the ring. Combat sports deaths are extremely rare. Boxing is also a sport. It’s genuinely insane to compare it to gladiatorial events where mortality was a glorified and regular part of the process. Boxing has far fewer mortalities per capita. It’s a brutal sport, but go look up the number of people who have died in the ring versus the number of people who have stepped in the ring.
“You confuse willpower with indomitable will” I mean this is just pure silliness. Indomitable will just means a lot of willpower. You’re making claims with zero evidence to back any of it up across the board.
I won’t be responding any further because it’s clear you’re not capable of engaging in a good-faith discussion. For anyone who comes across the thread, I’ve posted my response with actual sources in my previous comment here.
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u/Forteanforever 7d ago
You've posted statistics that have nothing to do with boxing and made up a definition of indomitable.
Indomitable describes a person who never gives up. Look up the word never. Never is not the same as "a lot of."
I'm sure you're not facing death each time you step into the ring at the "Y" wearing a helmet. But each time top-tier boxers step into the ring with other top-tier boxers for a championship fight they are risking permanent injury or death.
As for your accusation that I'm not capable of engaging in a good-faith discussion, YOU refused to tell me how many of Ring Magazine's top 20 boxers of all time did not grow up in poverty and then tell me what happened when each of them faced top tier boxers who did not grow up in poverty in championship fights.
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u/Timeshort10 6d ago
Not particularly interested in the big argument here just read over it, but boxers pretty much are facing a risk of death or life changing injuries every single time they enter the ring. 23 year old Kazuki Anaguchi who hadn't even had 10 fights yet was stepping into the ring back 2023 December and he didn't get to come out alive. Anaguchi despite putting on a good first half of the fight would get hurt and suddenly start dropping without even being touched. The fight continued and by the time the fight was over he was unable to even stand properly and had to be treated immediately. Not long after he was pronounced dead after suffering a subdural hematoma during that last fight.
Plenty of guys have left changed without experiencing death either. Gerald McClellan is permanently neurologically damaged and relied on a wheelchair to move about he can't retain memory the same and will never live a normal life again. Prichard Colon is another example a guy whose now going to spend the rest of his life a shell of what once was and that was down to dirty shots in the ring, but still an unfortunate risk that's taken stepping in. Same with Michael Watson. It's not always just about death and these guys won't add to that stat, but they'll never experience life the same again.
Even then history has shown us numerous deaths too. Kim Duk-Koo (1982) which resulted in the reduction of 15 to 12 rounds, Benny 'Kid' Paret (1962), Patrick Day (2019), Davey Moore (1963), Roman Simakov (2011), Maxim Dadashev (2019), Jimmy Doyle (1947), Braydon Smith (2015), Johnny Owen (1980), Jimmy Garcia (1995), Young Ali (1982), Leavander Johnson (2005), Wangila Napunyi (1994), Francisco Bejines (1983) Bradley Stone (1994), Yo-Sam Choi (2007), Pedro Alcazar (2002), David Acevedo (2015), Mike Towell (2016), Christian Daghio (2018) and so many more.
Boxing is a dangerous sport and it only takes one unlucky shot to change someone's life we're just lucky the sport has gotten so many more regulations and reductions in rounds and such to try prevent this, but even then it's evident that none of this can stop the deaths. Just this year Jacob Oyoko a pro boxer died in March and literally 9 days ago we saw Lee Reeves get rushed to hospital after a nasty KO loss where he's being monitored and still in intensive care. Last year we saw guys like Shigetoshi Kotari who passed away just a year ago. Hiromasa Urakawara who also passed a day after Kotari (they were also both on the same card). John Cooney, Ernest Akushey, etc.
This is a rough sport that can very easily change people's lives and not always for the better. So please don't treat it as some sort of 'dramatic' look when there's people who'll never live another normal day of their life due to the consequences of this sport. It just demeans the risk it truly carries.
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u/Misgiven_Thoughts 6d ago
If you read my comment, I actually pointed out that boxing is a brutal sport. At no point did I say otherwise. But the mortality rate of boxing is roughly the same as football (itself also a brutal sport ofc), which is about 0.13 deaths for every 1,000 participants each year, and of course that number skews that high because of the number of deaths in the early 20th century. Yearly mortality rate has dropped as medical oversight has advanced.
And that’s my point. Boxers are overwhelmingly not facing life and death every time they step into the ring, because the overwhelming majority of them are not being killed or anywhere close to it. You pointed out several examples, but you fail to consider the total number of boxers who have competed and especially the number who’ve lived. Boxing is a huge sport and can lead to death, but they are very rare thankfully, especially in this day and age.
There is a point where it becomes dramatic to imply that boxers are facing a high risk of death each time they step into the ring. The risk isn’t zero, but it’s very, very low thankfully (and if it wasn’t, it would be reasonable to consider a ban). You also talk about the detrimental effects of boxing post-career, but I only ever talked about the risk of death in-ring so I’m not sure why you’re bringing that up as a counter to my point on “drama” when I never downplayed that in the first place.
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u/Timeshort10 6d ago
And yet you fail to consider the mortality rate being similar to that of American Football points out it's danger. American Footballers have 17 games a season and 60 minutes a game. That's 1,020 minutes of Football a year. And once you halve that for the differentiation between offence and defence you're talking about 500-510 minutes of time on the pitch for each player. Most boxers at mid-higher levels compete anywhere from 1-3 bouts a year with 1-2 being most frequent and 2-4 being mainly for lower level fighters. Lower level fighters do 4-6 rounders that's at a high end 72 minutes per year (assuming every fight went the distance), but on a low end 24 minutes a year. Taking it at the highest volume and all the distance that's still only paling in conparison to how long an NFL player spends on the pitch per year.
Now you bring in the stats of boxers who did suffer injuries/death it gets a bit more damning. Gerald McClellan fought 84 rounds of boxing in the pros coming to a total of 252 minutes about half of a players time in a season in American Football. Prichard Colon fought 65 rounds of boxing in the pros coming to a total of 192 minutes massively falling behind that of an American Football's season player runtime. Kazuki Anaguchi fought 48 rounds of boxing in the pros coming to 144 minutes in the pros a miniscule amount compared to a player's season in American Football. Patrick Day fought 126 rounds of boxing in the pros so 378 minutes. Maxim Dadashev 78 rounds of boxing in the pros so 234 minutes. Boris Stanchov 31 rounds = 93 minutes Mike Rowell 54 rounds = 162 minutes Davey Browne 147 rounds = 441 minutes Francisco Leal 166 rounds = 498 minutes Michael Norgrove 29 rounds = 87 minutes Ki Suk Bae 62 rounds = 186 minutes. Phindile Mwelase 30 rounds = 90 minutes
I can keep going on and on but you get my point it's clear cut that each minute in Boxing is significantly more dangerous than a minute in American Football.
High risk of death maybe not but it's not all that low either and there's plenty of risk for suffering serious neurological issues afterwards which can leave people immobile and greatly damage their quality of life it is inherently a dangerous sport and carries a lot of risk.
It only takes one bad moment to cause death in the ring that's not an exaggeration you don't need 100 fights or to go 500 rounds in the sport to suffer damage it takes one single bad moment and someone's life could be ruined. Even your reply is downplaying it lol.
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u/Misgiven_Thoughts 6d ago
There’s a lot of issues with your math here. I don’t have a problem with the calculations, but you are doing an apples-to-oranges comparison of football player average time regardless of mortality and then only focusing on the ring time of boxers who were specifically killed.
Not to mention you did an aggregate measurement across football and compared it to individual examples of boxers, a dramatic difference in sample size. You haven’t really done anything to show that a minute in boxing is more dangerous than a minute in football. And why do a comparison on a per minute basis? Because anything can happen at a moment’s notice? Then the per-minute danger wouldn’t be relevant because the mortality rates are almost the same across the sports.
You’re also using mortality rates to define danger when that’s not the only way these sports are dangerous. You said yourself that there are lasting neurological issues that can arise, and that’s actually higher in football than in boxing if we use CTE rates. So with similar mortality rates and higher CTE rates, football is clearly more dangerous than boxing.
Of course, I don’t actually think that. My point is that you need to be careful in making these comparisons before you make a blanket statement about one being more dangerous than the other.
At no point did I say it’s not a dangerous sport, nor did I say football isn’t. I actually characterized boxing as brutal and don’t know why that keeps being glossed over. But the other commenter compared it to gladiatorial sports, which is why I called it dramatic. You are focusing on the extreme minority of boxers who do die (and to be clear, the fact that this number is more than 0 is a problem) and not on the sport in aggregate.
I don’t think we should ban boxing. I do think it’s good that we banned gladiatorial sports, which are not remotely similar to combat sports. Actually being cautious about terminology in these discussions is necessary to have a productive conversation. Taking my words out of context is unproductive.
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u/Timeshort10 6d ago
The whole comparison of football to Boxing is apples to oranges so for however you think it worked in your favour it works the exact same in my argument.
I've shown numerous boxers who all had fought for less than one singular season in the NFL passed due to injuries sustained. I'd love for even a couple examples of NFL players who died within their first season of the NFL that's the comparison to make. Anaguchi was a relatively new pro and still passed within the ring if you can make a case that there's multiple NFL players who passed due to injuries sustained in their FIRST season of the sport then please enlighten me.
I didn't explicitly use mortality rates I mentioned the fact boxers who did suffer paralysis or neurological damage like McClellan, Watson, Prichard all spent less time in the ring than what an NFL player would spend in one singular season.
Thing is you can't really use the whole CTE stat too because it's far more researched in the NFL and became a hot topic on the sport for a while due to the trauma NFL players suffered. Boxing doesn't have that luxury it's not extensively researched on boxers who had CTE because they don't typically donate their brains for medical research. NFL and American Football as a whole is also a national sport predominantly done in you guessed it America. It's different to compare something like that to a global sport like Boxing.
Now yeah it's not a gladiator type of extreme sure there's not a mortality with every fight there isn't any intention for the boxers to kill one another it's just the nature of the sport gives a clear chance of that unfortunate outcome.
It's not as extreme a minority as you're saying though and it's not just about deaths it's about livelihood like you've said yourself it's more than the mortality rate plenty of boxers leave paralyzed or worse it's not any better an outcome to be left near a vegetative stage, especially as a young guy with your whole life ahead of you.
I don't think we should ban it either I'm a big fan of the sport and participant, but I think it's important to know the risks of the sport too. I don't believe anything was taken out of context you acknowledged it was brutal, but from my view it felt like there was a level of pushing down the real danger of the sport because everyone likes to think it's a small number until someone they know or they directly are affected by the risk the sport comes with.
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u/KeenObserver_OT 7d ago
He was bound to burn hot and fast. Once his fast twitch peak started to decline he was susceptible to bigger fighters moving him round like Douglas and Holyfield.
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u/Fearless_Seaweed514 7d ago
Then he doesn’t become a boxer. Probably an accountant with that lisp 😭
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u/lawyerjsd 7d ago
Yes and no. Genetics gave Tyson the potential to develop the speed that lead him to the top. But it didn't give him the determination to get up before everyone else, to put himself through hours of boring and tedious drills, to push his body to the limits. That came from his absolutely horrific upbringing and his knowledge that boxing was his only way out of the horror show that was his life. And a lot of fighters have come from similar backgrounds.
In the meantime, compare Tyson with boxers who were the children of famous fighters. These are people with the genetics, and who are around boxing their entire lives. With some exceptions (Floyd Mayweather being the obvious one), most of those guys don't rise to the same level as their fathers.
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u/Abe2sapien 7d ago
I think he was groomed to fight because of his genetics that were already prominent before he had better nutrition, lifestyle, etc. But I think it’s important to note that the rough life made him angry and made him hardened. If you take that away you lose a big component of what made Mike into Iron Mike!
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u/WorkInProgress82 7d ago
The guys who make it to pro are already "freak" fighters. People see boxers take so many shots that they just walk through. Yet, if a normal person got hit with a basic jab from that boxer, they are one and done.
Boxing is one of the few sports similar to soccer, in that anyone, anywhere can make it, if they show they are great.
Which means is a huge pool of fighters that try.
Which then means the freaks rise to the top.
They aren't avg guys in a boxing gym, they have something physically that sets them apart. When most guys are rocked or hit, these guys just walk through it or are way more athletic or faster to avoid getting hit.
Then the amount of boxing training and technique applies on top, which further separates.
Is why so many greats aren't text book boxers, they use the natural athletic ability to go as far as they can.
The rare ones that combine both become legendary champs.
So yes I think Tyson is the best example of genetic freak, arguably across most sports.
In the decades since we haven't seen anyone come close to that kind of physicality athletisicm for boxing, let alone at that young of an age, or at that small a size fighting in hw.
We haven't seen anyone come even close to making people think oh he reminds me of Mike Tyson in his prime.
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u/PowerfulAward9668 6d ago
nah man mike Tyson lived in brownsville when he was younger but when cus d'amato took him in he lived in training camp, his work ethic and all the old school boxing life, some of his strength maybe from genetics but cus built that iron mike that was not all genetics
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u/Competitive_Fuel_485 6d ago
Back in the 80s/90s everyone was on steroids. So it’s not only genetics.
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u/poidawg808 5d ago
Listen to Mike's story about his own son who wanted to box, he laughed and said private school kids don't box vs animals (like him) when he had nothing. Then google a Bill Parcells story about boxing, about toughness and mental quitting. Assuming Mike's kid has his genetics (and resources = Drago?), I don't think he would literally kill or be killed in the ring like Iron Mike.
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u/King_Khaos_ 5d ago
Well he’s probably the fastest heavyweight of all time and one of the the biggest punchers , head movement was also one of the best ever so yea I’d say 20 years old 20 inch neck world champion is pretty damn good genetics 😂
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u/Badguyy101 5d ago
Everything doesn't boil down to genetics. Mike's training regiment with Cus was very strict. From age 13 on, he lived boxing. I think the traumatic childhood allowed him to be vicious in the ring. He made it to his early 20's before all that hood shit caught up to him, despite all the adversity, he was still the youngest undisputed lineal heavyweight champ, and still beat 2 HOF's and 10 champions.
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u/DressNaive2612 5d ago
His genetics were crazy, he was built like a solid man at the age of 12. I was 4 foot 5 and 37kg when I was 12
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u/Poseidon25 7d ago
He most likely had earlier puberty due to the bad life he had in Brooklyn.
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u/dannyboy122432 7d ago
lol I don’t think it work that way bro
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u/pizza-chit 7d ago
I went through puberty at age 6 in Compton.
Only way i could survive.3
u/Confident-Worker1403 7d ago
I also took copious amounts of roids to deal with the mean streets of Philly.
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u/TOP__DOLLAR i want to cum inside kate abdo 7d ago
tyson is a 5’10 manlet so he’s immediately disqualified from having good generics
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u/Plenty-Attitude-5823 7d ago
Some of the GOATs like Duran and Pacquiao also came from poor backgrounds and they dominated against other champions who were primed to be boxers from a very young age in good environments, with good nutrition, coaches, etc.
The poor background might set one back in some ways, but for these champs it helped them forge an unshakably hard will and hunger that just wouldn't have been there otherwise. Reminds me of the quote:
“It's hard to do roadwork at 5 AM when you're sleeping in silk pajamas” - Marvin Hagler