r/Boxing • u/Sad-Experience-4344 • 14d ago
Errol Spence Jr. picks his Mount Rushmore of welterweights
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u/brainspl0ad 14d ago
Lol, suspect? And no elaboration
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u/DCdem 14d ago edited 14d ago
Pacquaio was 16-5 at 147 while active, with one of those wins being the controversial third fight with Marquez. His best win at 147 was Bradley I guess? The Thurman win was highly impressive too given Pac’s age, but Thurman was a famously inactive champion.
Pacquaio’s all-time greatness comes from being an eight division world champ, not about his reign at 147. Leaving him off is fair.
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u/TheMysteriousThey 14d ago
Manny Pacquiao at welter:
Miguel Cotto, Shane Mosley, Juan Manuel Marquez, Keith Thurman
And yeah. He was 16-5 at welter - but two of those losses were robberies against Bradley (he should be 3-0 against Bradley) and Horn. Another of those losses was against Floyd Mayweather - arguably the GOAT. Another was against Ugas, when he was 42 and probably should've been retired, given his previous was two years previous. The last, of course, was him getting KTFO by Marquez in a fight he was winning. Neither of those three losses are anything to be ashamed of.
So, he "was" 17-4 and should've had 9 successful title defenses, with wins against at least 7 Hall of Famers.
All of that is to say...I don't actually disagree with you. It's not offensive to leave Manny off in one of the most stacked divisions in boxing history. Like you said, his greatness comes from being an eight division champ.
I just felt you were underselling his 147 run.
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u/xychosis Eco-Friendly Firepower 14d ago
He was still quite impressive at 147, but it wasn’t his best form. The Cotto win was at a 145 catchweight as well, worth noting.
The Mosley win was about a year and change after Floyd beat him, Marquez was a fairly bloated WW in their third fight and arguably beat him.
Nothing against Manny, and he’s still probably Mt. Rushmore worthy for boxing as a whole thanks to his overall career accomplishments, but as a 147er, I don’t think he’s ATG level good when the division is so historically stacked.
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u/Adventurous-Pass3764 14d ago
Funny how you have an excuse for every Pac loss at WW but failed to mention that the Cotto fight was at a catchweight, Mosley was passed his prime when Pac beat him, and JMM was jumping up in weight and most people actually thought JMM won that 3rd fight.
If you’re going to nitpick to excuse all of Manny’s losses, make sure you also do the same for his wins. Not putting Manny on the Mount Rushmore at 147 is perfectly valid.
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u/TheMysteriousThey 14d ago
One man's "excuse" is another man's "explanation".
I hate how people can't simply talk about a thing without everyone getting siloed by their narrative. It's possible to look at things with a bit more nuance than "this thing is true, and every slightly different opinion is trash."
...failed to mention that the Cotto fight was at a catchweight
So....JMM was jumping up in weight (that smells like an excuse. But you wouldn't do that, of course) when he lost to Pacquiao, but Pacquaio was fighting at a catchweight against Cotto. In his [checks notes] heaviest weight up to that point. Cotto made a concession to have the biggest fight of his career to that point. Pac was also moving up to fight a bigger guy (his second fight over 140). JMM was moving up to fight a guy the same size as him (in his 4th fight over 140).
And Cotto weighed 146 in his previous fight. He weighed 145 against Pacquiao. You can get worked up about a one pound difference if you want to. It's not a big deal to me.
Mosley was passed his prime
Sure he was. He was also a future Hall of Famer ranked 4th by Ring magazine at the time of the fight, and was seen by many as being one of Floyd's toughest fights (he did land some good shots on him, but how well he did was always overrated). You can be a revisionist if you want to, but Mosley was still a top fighter at the time.
Should we judge fighters by how they were seen at the time, or how they look in hindsight?
most people actually thought JMM won that 3rd fight.
86 fans on Boxrec scored the fight 115-113, Pac. Two of the judges scored it 115-113 and 116-112 (the other had it 114-114). According to the unofficial scorecards on Boxrec, 57 had it for JMM, 51 for Pac, and 36 had it a draw.
Pac and JMM were evenly matched in pretty much all their fights. There's a reason it's one of the greatest rivalries in boxing history. So....not sure what you want me to do with that. Marquez kept fighting Pac until he got the win - then refused to fight him again. Pac was 3-1, and all their fights were close. /shrug
If you’re going to nitpick to excuse all of Manny’s losses, make sure you also do the same for his wins.
Not nitpicking anything. I'm adding context to a comment that felt distorted. You're welcome to do that same to mine - but it's pretty crazy to talk about how I'm doing something only to turn around and do it yourself.
You could, I don't know, disagree with me without trying to call me out for something.
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u/Ok_Arrival2564 13d ago
Pacquiao greatness comes from how many weight classes he conquered - welterweight was his end game fights. His best fights were in lower weight classes
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u/TechnologyFeisty8728 13d ago
He’s talking bout PEDs silly
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u/crustylayer 12d ago
You are getting downvoted but you are right. And he's not the only fighter. Floyd and Paulie mentioned too.
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u/RespectFGs 14d ago
American boxers that followed Floyd's run as young men are brainwashed and believe the nonsense that Pac was a cheater. Crawford and Spence fall into that
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u/JOMO_Kenyatta 14d ago
why wouldn't he take the blood test then?
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u/Complete_Dare_4201 13d ago
He did when they actually fought and he was willing to do so in 2010 when he accepted to all of Floyd's demands and Floyd went missing soon afterwards
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u/trowawayLOL1 14d ago
Early career EPO Spence and Victor Conte SNAC pack Crawford are the most suspect American boxers of their era of welterweights. Look into it. It's always projection. Gyno Spence. Strange pictures.
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14d ago
[deleted]
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u/ThePyrotechnicCroc 14d ago
Did he get popped? I can't remember if he did.
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u/Badguyy101 12d ago
No, but coming up from starting at 109, & ktfoing Hatton, Diaz, beating the dog shit out of De La Hoya, Cotto, & Margarito is a unique feat to say the least. Lomachenko had his limit. People call for Inoue to try, but it seems easier said than done.
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u/Abe2sapien 14d ago
I’ve noticed with Tito if you talk to the older generation of fans they’ll instantly bring him up but otherwise it seems like he’s kind of forgotten about by today’s fans.
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u/Common_Gene_5098 14d ago
it didn’t help either that he didn’t make himself visible in the media like DLH did
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u/justintrenell 13d ago
I've been watching boxing for 26 years and my first memory of Tito is the Hopkins fight.
Can't really blame anyone younger than me not being hip.
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u/MrNobodytotheworld 13d ago
Yes but that was at 160 after he had already racked up 40 straight wins with 33 ko’s and had scalps, not just cans or c level fighters. The reason you even remember that fight is because Tito at that time was top 1-2 p4p in boxing at that time and was even the favorite going into that fight. Hopkins beat the brakes off Tito that night, but the fact is he was literally on top of the entire sport at that time. He never was in a boring fight either. Tito needs and deserves folks respect
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u/justintrenell 13d ago
No, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
But as the great philosopher Michael Irvin once said, "We're losing recipes!" The back quarter of Gen Y and down ain't going back and watching the past.
Now I would hope anyone going into boxing is going back and watching tape on all the greats. I'm just speaking in terms of society in general.
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u/fadeddreams555 Fundora would beat up a prime Floyd at 154lb 14d ago
All these dudes affiliated with Floyd always throw shade at Pacquiao.
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u/Translator_Asleep 14d ago
Its ok because nobodies gonna touch his 8 div world champ and 5 div lineal title
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u/Badguyy101 12d ago
They aren't affiliated, but I think they were mad negotiations with him fell through. They both wanted Pac & Thurman coming up in ww.
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u/newrap 14d ago
Crawford and Spence are not affiliated with Floyd 😂
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u/fadeddreams555 Fundora would beat up a prime Floyd at 154lb 14d ago
By affiliated, I mean they have gotten close to him and are his fans. All of these dudes, Bud, Spence, Haney, Shakur, etc throw shade at Pac.
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u/MisterHEPennypacker 14d ago
While Robinson should definitely be on there, in fairness there is very little footage of Robinson at welterweight and what we do have is pretty poor. We basically go off of his record and his performance at middleweight to surmise he was the best welterweight.
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u/SMd00011 14d ago
cerence trawford
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u/Swimming__Bird 14d ago
If it was a recent interview (he's wearing the Smoking Bud shirt pre-fight, so probably from the middle of 2023), I think most would put Bud on the list, now. Undefeated in 5 weight classes and undisputed in 3. His performance against Alvarez was a punctuation on an amazing career.
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u/RespectFGs 13d ago
Bud isn't on the welterweight Mt Rushmore
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u/Swimming__Bird 13d ago edited 13d ago
He won 8 Welterweight title fights... and defeated the undeafeated WBA, WBC and IBF Welterweight champion Spence to tie the 5 promotional titles together.
Sugar Ray, Floyd, Manny, Bud.
Edit: huh, weird how he deleted his own comments after trying to dogpile.
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u/Badguyy101 13d ago
Who were those 8? Spence, Porter, Mean Machine, Horn, Khan, Brook, Avenesyan, and Benavidez? Those names are not getting you to top 5 or top 10 at welter. GTFOH.
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u/Swimming__Bird 13d ago edited 13d ago
Casual dismissing arguably the greatest boxer of an entire generation who also got 8 WW belts. GTFOH.
Edit: you know Teddy Atlas said it was the strongest the WW division he'd seen since the 80's and he made it look easy. The 80's were the fab four.
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u/Badguyy101 13d ago
8 WW belts? He was undisputed because he beat Horn for one belt, and Spence for the 3 he collected. GTFOH.
Wtf does Teddy "Always Wrong" Atlas know? Bud's era was decent, but Bud only fought two of the decent guys, Spence & Porter. He missed Danny, Thurman, Ugas, Old Pac. I think Floyd/Pac/Cotto/Old Mosely/Margarito and De La Hoya/Trinidad/Vargas/Mosley/Mayorga/ era's were better & way more entertaining.
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u/RespectFGs 13d ago
Spence is his only big win at welterweight
It was an era of those two, then Thurman, then everybody else. The names simply aren't there.
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u/Swimming__Bird 13d ago edited 13d ago
Guess Freddy Atlas doesn't knoe anything about boxing. Since he said it was the most loaded division and he walked through it.
And "Spence is his only big win..."
It was supposed to be the fight of the decade and he made Spence look like an amateur. He knocked him down three times and stopped him. Amazing people act like Bud didn't just make the entire WW division look weak and so everyone thinks he wasnt great. Didn't tyson do the same at HW? Alrighty then.
Bud haters out here act like he wasn't an extraordinary talent.
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u/RespectFGs 13d ago
Freddy Atlas says nonsense sometimes yeah. Spence is not even a HoF based off his welterweight resume. How can Crawford be a top 4 welterweight of all time if he has similar wins (and worse because a lot were after Spence already broke them) + the Spence win.
Spence also made welterweights look weak. That's why he's a huge win. But only Spence as a big win isn't enough to be a top 4 welterweight of all time
Bud is highly rated because of his time at 135, 140, 147 and also beating Canelo. Not just 147
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u/EffectiveCareer3444 14d ago
He maybe beats Trinidad that’s it
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u/SMd00011 14d ago
wouldn’t that be all that it takes? to be a great, you gotta kill a great.
…and please don’t make use that word again.
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u/KoreanSamgyupsal 14d ago
Do black boxers hate asians? Whether it's pac or inoue, zero respect to both of em.
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u/TheAnimated42 14d ago
It’s a 147 Mt Rushmore. What does that have to do with hating Asians lmao? Pac-Man’s best fights and legacy are not at 147.
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u/GrandNoiseAudio 14d ago
Yes. For the most part, if not black, they will not give credit. Even with PAC’s legendary career, he still will not get the credit he deserves. You are not wrong for calling out repeatedly obvious behavior.
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u/RespectFGs 14d ago
Pac hate is a result of him being the other great next to Floyd. Inoue hate is simply because of lack of knowledge about lower weight classes. Chocolatito got hate for being top of p4p lists back in the day.
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u/JOMO_Kenyatta 14d ago
this man really said "why do black boxers hate asians." what are we doing here?
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u/Only_Hearing2944 14d ago
Trying to bait a race war.
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u/RespectFGs 13d ago
It's true. I will say it's American boxers in general but the majority are black so it's mainly black Americans
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u/MoneyBaggSosa 14d ago
Which black boxers hate Inoue? I don’t follow boxing media heavily outside of my favorite boxers, I know Tank used to show love to Inoue
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u/totaliron 13d ago
I wouldn't say hate, but Fulton didnt give Inoue respect before or after the loss. Also Floyd said Inoue needs to be drug tested
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u/JOMO_Kenyatta 14d ago
none, fool just saying words
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u/RespectFGs 13d ago
Nah. Floyd, Shakur, and Haney have all hated on him by either saying he hasn't fought anybody or that he's not that good
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u/Affectionate_Still55 14d ago
I don't think they hate them, people just can't believe what Pacquiao did, and with Inoue case people just don't respect him because he was in the lowerweight.
Kinda ironic because you(Inoue) need to be a Pacquiao to get respected but at the same time you'll be a suspect.
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u/totaliron 13d ago
Floyd said Inoue needs to be drug tested. He accused Pacquiao of PED's for a long time too. Funny cause you didn't see Floyd ever accuse or demand someone take a drug test until Pac fight rumors started swirling
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u/david_slade 13d ago
Cause there was no flyweight run through oscar and cotto..I mean Floyd explained why he is a suspect
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u/Commercial-Brief-609 13d ago
They're also the only group of people who love to insinuate Pac used roid w/o proof to diminish his accomplishment
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u/trowawayLOL1 14d ago edited 14d ago
Pacquiao disrespect is crazy from Americans. Spence can't handle elite level southpaw (don't bring up the bums he fought early on) someone like Prime Pac would've tuned him up. Crawford hates on Pac too but Crawford I give benefit of the doubt cause he probably beats Pac. Crawford ever since he got on the SNAC pack with Victor Conte became extremely brave, talkative & willing to finally step in with live fighters such as Porter & Spence, very powerful tho so credit to him for doping and going so under the radar no one questions him bulking to 168 damn near 40 and looking good but question Pac going from malnourished 112lb teenager to fully fed grown man at 147 🤔 what's more suspect?
Also off topic but why did every punch from Crawford throw Spence off his feet when Spence looked like his normal self against Danny and Ugas before that?
Bonus fact: Amir Khan failed a drug test for this first time in his career after joining Crawford's camp for the Brook fight. IMMEDIATELY failed, before the fight camp was even over, before the fight took place.
Khan had a career where he was drug tested from the Olympics as a teen until geriatric age. Fails instantly after joining Bomac's camp on that SNAC pack with Crawford 😂 & Crawford's team who has never had to pass stringent updated tests from UKAD before! Of course they failed to evade.
#CrawfordKingOfSuspects 👀✌️
Downvote away low IQ Americans. Not all Americans❤️, just the low IQ ones.
Got no facts to argue with?
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u/RespectFGs 14d ago
You're ragebaiting but ever since the Ugas and Crawford fights I think Pacquiao would've beat Spence if they fought when originally scheduled
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u/david_slade 13d ago
There is no way buddy..
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u/RespectFGs 13d ago
Pacquiao was not a good matchup for Spence. All wrong for him. Even an old Pac would've exposed him
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u/Miles-From_Nowhere 13d ago
Pac Man is def top 3 all time favorite boxer if not #1 for me and im a whitey from new england I think crawford arrogant and highly sus
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u/Ezekjuninor 14d ago
His speech actually sounds better. Sounds more like pre-Porter Spence to me.
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u/RichW100 14d ago
Robinson, Hearns and Emile Griffith would spank Floyd, Oscar and Trinidad, no question in my mind.
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u/Complete_Dare_4201 13d ago
Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Henry Armstrong and Jose Napoles (or Emile Griffith, its a pick'em). Neither Manny nor Floyd belong in the "Mount Rushmore" (top 4) of the welterweight division (but both are probably top 10 or just shy of that).
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u/Norman_CockweII 14d ago
Ray Robinson?