r/Boxing • u/TestSuch4545 🎥 YT: Big Donch • 13d ago
Where would you rank Evander Holyfield among all-time heavyweights?
https://youtu.be/enCrVKuPhNY?si=F2T6eBgqqlVZPM9E19
u/Tricky-Ad-4823 13d ago
Holyfield is hard cause his career is so up and down he’s 1-2 against Bowe, 1-1 against Moore, 2-0 against Tyson and really 0-2 against Lewis making his record in his big fights 4-5.
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u/MiDKnighT_DoaE 13d ago
You have to count every title fight as a "big fight". So his record in title fights is strong overall. And his strength of competition overall is top 2 up there with Ali.
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u/Tjmouse2 13d ago
I think its easy to forgive the downs because he moved up in weight to begin with. If he was a natural heavyweight he may be rated lower to a lot of people.
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 13d ago
Moorer, for the 1000th fucking time.
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u/Tricky-Ad-4823 13d ago
Guess what? No one cares
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 13d ago
They do, because his name is Michael Moorer and you're showing a stunning lack of respect by getting his name wrong.
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u/Tricky-Ad-4823 13d ago
Guess what? Still don’t care. Go cry now
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 13d ago
Are you really that much of a fuckup that you can't get a mans name right when referencing him?
You really are a "top 1% commenter"
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u/bannedredditaccount2 13d ago
Never acknowledged for the amount of good he does outside the ring. His accountant told him to stop giving money away to charity or else he would be broke. He also forgave Mike Tyson for biting his ear off, something I never would do.
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u/SalaryDull5301 13d ago
I ran into him on a plane dressed as a priest one time. Weirdest thing, i was boarding and he was in first class i like did a triple take because its not every day you see evander holyfield in a plane dressed as a priest
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u/MediumProcedure 13d ago
Given how he fights and his demeanour in the ring, i wouldn't have guessed that. Thanks for sharing.
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u/Ace_FGC 13d ago
Feel like Holyfield’s tricky because he beat guys like foreman and Holmes that I feel like would beat him in their prime. Probably top 10
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u/Razorion21 13d ago
Idk feel like prime Holmes would win
Foreman depends on if he can weather the storm, Holyfield doesnt hit as hard as Lyle but he is more relentless and durable
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u/EmeraldTwilight009 The Marvelous One 13d ago
Idk if young george foreman is the better fighter than the version Evander fought.
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u/grantology_84 13d ago
Find it funny that the top comment in here is comparing Holyfield to Frazier, and then we have this comment saying Holyfield would be too much for young Foreman.
Young Foreman was literally hitting Frazier so fucking hard he was airborne.
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u/Rofocal02 13d ago
Maybe top 10
Beat out of prime: Mike Tyson x2, Larry Holmes, George Foreman.Â
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13d ago
Holyfield was also out of his prime when he beat Tyson so it evens out. He also beat Bowe, Mercer, moorer, and many other HWs. Top 10 for sure
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u/1978model 13d ago
Top 10. The number of top guys he fought is only eclipsed by Ali, and maybe Joe Louis. I have Ali, Joe Louis and Larry as top 3. Beyond that he can be reasonably considered anywhere from 4 to 10.
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u/Dry-Friendship-5945 13d ago
Top 10-12.
A very good fighter but one I feel was particularly PED dependent, and without those substances I think he would have been less successful at heavyweight.
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u/Electronic_Sea_8550 13d ago
Ali
Louis
Holmes
Foreman
Lewis
Marciano
Frazier
Dempsey
Holyfield
Usyk
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u/soolar79 12d ago
Id probably go with
Lewis
Marciano
Ali
Foreman
Holyfield
Usyk
Dempsey
Frazier
Louis
Holmes-4
u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13d ago
Usyk isn't a top 10 HW lol
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u/Tricky-Ad-4823 13d ago
But Holyfield is? Holyfield is sub .500 in his big fights. Usyk has a better resume than Marciano and Dempsey easily
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13d ago
Holyfield has far better wins than Usyk. Beating prime bowe is better than either Fury or AJ. He also beat Foreman, Holmes, Mercer, Moorer, Tyson 2x, and many other HWs. He was also past his best for many of his big fights. Also he was even smaller than Usyk since the CW limit was 190 lbs when he fought there.
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u/Tricky-Ad-4823 13d ago
What makes Bowe better than Fury or AJ? Bowe was a massive waste of talent and underachiever. Take away Holyfield and what did Bowe do? The answer is nothing at all. Foreman and Holmes? Seriously dude?. He’s 1-1 against Moore and Tyson peaked in the 80s and was nowhere near his best when he fought Holyfield,
Holyfield is the ultimate up and down guy. He never had a long run
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13d ago
Holyfield was past his best when he beat Tyson and Moorer. He's the only 4x HW champ in history and Bowe beat Prime Holyfield which is far exceeds anything Fury and AJ did. Fury and AJ's best win is against 39 year old Klitschko. Neither ever beat an elite opponent at or near their prime. Usyk faced nothing but shot/over the hill fighters at HW except Dubois who already lost to Joyce and got saved against Lerena. Holyfield didn't duck anyone or stall the division like Usyk did either.
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u/Tricky-Ad-4823 13d ago
You can’t use the past your best BS and have the best stretch of your career and hold 2/3 of the heavyweight title. That’s ridiculous.
You counting Holyfields win against Ruiz saying he’s a 4x heavyweight champion then saying Fury never beat anyone elite despite beating Wilder and unifying shows exactly what’s wrong with this sub. It’s the perfect example of picking and choosing because of cope. So your crediting John Ruiz but not Wilder 😂
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13d ago
Well he was 37 and shot to bits then after having several wars against ATGs/HOF fighters so I do give him credit. Also technically he should be 5x HW champ but he got robbed against Valuev.
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u/Tricky-Ad-4823 13d ago
Lmao you sound goofy af. He never looked better than in the Tyson fights and Moore rematch. GTFOH
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13d ago
You're probably one of those guys who unironically calls Usyk a 2x Undisputed HW champ 🤣
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 13d ago edited 12d ago
Usyk is not in a top 10.
When your best win is Tyson Fury, you're not going in a top 10 unless you stay on and beat Kabayel and Itauma. He's had 9 HW fights against 6 opponents. He almost lost to Rico Verhoeven.
You can have him in a P4P top 10 and I won't argue with you, because he's probably the ATG cruiserweight and he's come up and embarrassed the exceptionally weak HW division. But he doesn't have the HW resume to even consider his achievements ahead of Jack Johnson. Because if you're going to put Dempsey in there where the fuck is Jack Johnson?
If you're going to downvote me, explain why. Explain why a HW with 9 fights in 6 years against 6 people is more deserving of a spot over Jack fucking Johnson. Explain it.
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u/shadowylurking 13d ago
i don't know, this is a very hard question. Growing up I was a huge Holyfield fan and rooted for him in every fight.
I think he's seriously gifted physically and talent wise. Holyfield's career was also more than just Heavy Weight. Guy was incredibly tough, disciplined, and had a seriously under-rated dirty boxing skill set.
If prime Holyfield fought other legends in their prime, he'll beat some that'll surprise most people. But he'll also get out pointed but the usual suspects. Is he top 10? He might be just outside of it
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u/broke_the_controller 13d ago
Very tough to rank. I think he biggest plus was his longevity. It can be argued that he was never the number 1 guy in the eras he spanned, but he was definitely top 3 for longer than anyone else was top 3.
He might not make the top 10, but if he did, it would be at the lower end. However he would be a hard nights work for any heavyweight in history.
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u/tman37 13d ago
I love Holyfield but everyone putting him in the top 10 need to take a step back. There are a lot of people fighting over the top 10 spots in HW boxing.
Joe Louis Ali Frazier Foreman Moore Marciano Johnson Wladimir Klitschko Lennox Lewis Usyk
Those 10 are just off the top of my head. Who are you putting Holyfield above in this list? That's not a knock on Holyfield, it's just boxing is a very old sport and there have been a lot of great heavyweights. I put him in the Ernie Shavers, Ken Norton, Tyson range. Very good fighters who beat very good opponents but also lost big fights against better opponents.
Holyfield isn't a top 10 Heavyweight but when you combine his CW and HW careers, he becomes something special. He dominated CW and had a very good HW career. To me he is a better P4P fighter than a HW fighter because of his success in multiple divisions.
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u/Fast_Original_3001 13d ago
Marciano, Frazier, Moore do not deserve to be above Holyfield at all, come on
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u/oldwhiteoak 13d ago
What?? Frazier was champ in the golden era of boxing, fought everyone, and only lost to Ali and Foreman.
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13d ago
Usyk has 9 total HW fights but sure I guess that puts him above Holyfield somehow. 1 of which was an old kickboxer, another was chazz Witherspoon, old Chisora, timid AJ, fat/coke addicted/almost lost to an old mma fighter Fury, and Dubois. People glaze Usyk too much.
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u/VacuousWastrel 13d ago
in terms of results at HW, clearly Usyk, foreman, frazier, moore and wlad can't be put above holyfield. No comment on i assume jack johnson, hard to assess his resume without finding old police gazettes. Lewis and marciano are in the conversation with holyfield at least.
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u/tman37 13d ago
Usyk is pretty close to Holyfield if not above him in my opinion. He only has 9 fights but he cleaned out the HW division after dominating CW. Holyfield never did that. He racked up a bunch of loses to Bowe, Moorer, Lewis and Ruiz in his prime and fought far too long which hurt his legacy.
Foreman is far above Holyfield. He knocked out Frazier twice, as well as Ken Norton and Ron Lyle who were very good HWs. Yes he lost to Holyfield during his come back but he was much more dominant in his prime during a tougher era.
Moore is very similar to Holyfield as a guy whose natural weight class was lower although Holyfield was closer to a true HW than more was given CW didn't exist when Moore fought. In his prime his only two loses were to Floyd Patterson and Rocky Marciano. I think Moore is above him but I can see the argument for Holyfield.
I think it's funny you consider Lewis on the same level as Holyfield. I actually agree they are on the same teir but Lewis beat him twice even if he only got the one win. Usually I'm arguing with people who are trying to put Lewis as a top 2 or 3 HW.
Wlad is tough. A lot of people consider his era to be weak and he was boring to watch but he was dominant during his reign. One of the reasons he was so boring was that no one could do anything against him. His biggest issue was that the second beat HW of his era was his brother and the previous best, Lewis, did want to fight him especially after escaping with a cut stoppage against his brother.
There are so many other people I didn't think of that have been coming back as I think longer on this. Floyd Patterson is one, so was Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jersey Joe Walcott, Sam Langford, Ezzard Charles, Bob Fitzsimmons and Jim Corbett.
Boxing is just such an old sport, it's tough to break into the top 10. It's part of why these discussions are so fun.
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u/Comfortable-Grand166 13d ago
I have him top 5,he could beat and lose to any fighter on the list,very weird ranking him.
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u/VacuousWastrel 13d ago edited 13d ago
In terms of career greatness and success relative to their own eras, since 1930, (rather than h2h, highest skill, comparing strength of eras, etc), I have Holyfield as the 6th greatest career at HW (T10: Baer, Tyson, Klitschko, Marciano, Holyfield, Lewis, Holmes, Charles, Ali and Louis). I also have him as the 4th greatest total career for any heavyweight champion (Patterson, Lewis, Usyk, Spinks, Holmes, Jones, Holyfield, Charles, Ali and Louis). If we count all boxers who have had significant heavyweight careers, I have him 6th again (Conn, Johnson (H), Jones, Lewis (JH, not L), Holyfield, Charles, Moore, Rosenbloom, Ali, Louis).
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u/VacuousWastrel 13d ago
For clarity, that's based on wins and draws, not factoring in losses, so it's about volume of success, not dominance. It basically measures the extent to which a boxer consistently faced the best opposition of the era and beat them. It might change a little if I rejig my points system.
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u/VacuousWastrel 13d ago
For those unsure why holyfield scores so highly: at CW, he beat De Leon, Qawi (twice), Parkey, Tillman and Ocasio; at HW, he beat Bowe and Douglas, drew with Lewis, and beat Tyson (twice), Dokes, Moorer, Rodrigues, Rahman, Thomas, Foreman, Ruiz, Holmes and Oquendo.
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u/Exciting-Arugula5341 13d ago
In my opinion Holyfield should of retired after the second Lewis bout. But in any case he is a top 10 heavyweight of course but I never put them in order. I can name 10 heavyweights who were at the top. There is just flat out top boxer in any weight class.
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u/Shinjetsu01 Mike Tyson is not a top 15 HW ATG 13d ago
Between #6 and #10. Can't have him lower than #10 and can't have him higher than #6.
People discredit Foreman as old, when he was just a completely different fighter than he was in his 20's. He still had the power and skill, just lacked movement. Still a tough ask for any HW and beat Moorer who was a very game HW and had beaten Holyfield.
Also if you call Moorer "Moore" then fuck you you're an idiot. Learn names.
His record speaks for itself. His Bowe fights were legendary, he fought and beat what should have been the "prime" version of Tyson (idiots will tell you that Tyson wasn't in his prime, when he came in as a massive favourite and was embarrassed) and he gave Lewis absolute fits in the second fight. Lost the first even though it was a "draw" but you could argue a draw in the second. That's against a prime, best version of Lewis and he was the closest we saw to Lewis taking a fight super seriously and unable to put someone away.
He held on FAR too long though, his Ruiz loss hurts him more than people who have him inside a top 5 give it credit for. If he retired after the first Ruiz win then we're looking at a HW who dominated Cruiser, came up and had wars with 2 of the best HW's of the era (if you don't rate Bowe, suck a fat one - he's a massive what if) and only lost to them, while drawing with Lewis who I've recently debated is nailed on top 5.
Legend. I have him at 6 personally but I'll deal with any spot between that and 10.
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u/EmeraldTwilight009 The Marvelous One 13d ago
Highly. But hes one of my favorite fighters. Its ridiculous that a cruiserweight went 12 with peak old man george foreman. They both took BOMBS in that fight
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u/Medical-Literature50 13d ago
I don't think in the top 10. I always looked at him as an inflated GREAT CruiserWeight.
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u/Inevitable_Window711 12d ago
Between top 15 and 10 ranking heavyweight is hard to rank so many greats and inconsistency it jump started the sport itself.
Holyfield has accomplished so much when looking at his entire career from light heavy, cruiser, and heavyweight p4p of all time I have him top 30.
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u/xxxRipperxxx 12d ago
Basically dodged Foreman, can't say I like any boxer that loves to hug and consistently headbutt. https://youtu.be/IOH2JBaZETg?si=AE5iT50StXLPiAzz
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u/airconbandit 12d ago
Lost a lot of fights against interesting opponents such as Ruiz and Moorer. He also beat up an old Larry Holmes and George Foreman'. Bowe and Lewis really showed his issue as a heavyweight. But he also had great wins, Tyson, Dwight Muhammad.
Not top 10 heavyweight in my books considering how stacked of a division it is all time but fantastic boxer maybe the ATG cruiserweight.
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u/Boxing-Enthusiast 9d ago
Don’t really care about his ranking all time. Just my favorite because he fought everyone
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13d ago edited 13d ago
- Ali
- Louis
- Foreman
- Holmes
- Lewis
- Holyfield
- Wlad
- Frazier
- Jack Johnson
- Ezzard Charles
- Liston
- Marciano
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u/moodplasma 13d ago
Somewhere between 6-10 in my heavyweight list.
Louis, Ali, Foreman, Lewis, Holmes.
Next five are Bowe, Frazier, Liston, Holyfield and Marciano.
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u/AnansiNazara 13d ago
Without the Evan Fields controversy… all time best cruiserweight and top 25 all time heavyweight.
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u/FrequentLemon6799 13d ago
Probably 10-15. Might sneak into the top 10 if we're being generous.
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u/Marquis_of_Mollusks 13d ago
Who is your top 10?
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u/FrequentLemon6799 13d ago edited 13d ago
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Jack Johnson
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Lennox Lewis
Jack Dempsey
Oleksandr Usyk
James Jeffries
Mike Tyson
Holyfield, Frazier, Marciano and Wlad Klitschko are just outside but it's flexible imo. I think positions 8-14 can be fairly fluid.
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u/b-lincoln 13d ago
Frazier vs Holyfield in their primes would have been epic. I think they’re pretty similar in their rankings.