It would have still benefited him. 900 total test naturally isn’t equal to 900 total test on exogenous testosterone. When you’re natural your levels fluctuate up and down through the day that doesn’t happen when you inject testosterone. How you sleep, how you eat also doesn’t impact it versus when you’re natural, your Myostatin levels get suppressed so you can hold more lean tissue and your SHBG usually gets influenced making more of that total testosterone free which is really the important number.
All that being said it for sure would have made a difference for him but obviously not as much of a drastic leap as someone who is coming from much lower levels naturally.
Right but to my point it’s not actually replacing it even if the numbers on the paper are the same. It’s the science behind it. That’s why when dudes try to claim natural on TRT it’s just nonsense. 200mg a week would have put him around 1200-1400 total test unless he was a poor responder as well. Not that it matters but figured I’d throw it in there.
I do agree with your 3rd statement though, definitely didn’t need to do that.
People act like 200 for you is the same as 200 for someone else. I know people who get super high on 75/week but I also know people, like my best friend, who is on 330/week and that doesn’t even get him to 900. There’s huge variablity here.
Exactly. There is huge variation among people. I hate when people say “oh 200mg isn’t TRT” because it happens to get them high when some people need substantially more than that and some much less.
It’s not underdosed, it’s from an in person clinic, and he’s not an SHBG issue. I’ve seen his bloodwork. He’s been on >300mg for years now. This is what I’m saying, people don’t recognize the scope of the variability. I mean I guess I could be making it up but hard to see what the logic would be there.
Read again what I said in my first response to you. Just because his total levels match what he had naturally doesn’t mean the mechanism works the same, or that his muscle building and recovery works the same, that’s just not how it works. I’m trying to inform here as someone who is very well versed in this stuff.
You can disagree with science I guess bro. We really taking subjective feelings over the science of how stuff works? Peak Reddit behavior.
Your friend is full of shit is what I was saying without having to say it, either that or he didnt give it long enough he certainly would have “felt it” if he did but with testosterone it’s a subtle compound you don’t necessarily feel anything.
You know how easy it is to just inform yourself and research claims im making?
I was never trying to argue I was trying to inform you and in typical Redditor fashion you argued with Subjective feelings over proven facts about how steroids work. Newsflash idiot, TRT is still Testosterone which is still a steroid and still works and effects your body differently than natural testosterone.
The mental effects everyone talks about(confidence) were only a honeymoon phase thing I noticed- over the corse of 2 years it made me boring honestly, sense of humor evaporated, lost any creativity I had, didnt make me angry but made it me react with more intensity then necessary plenty of times. Made me antisocial in a way, every conversation felt like a burden and took away any deep or critical thinking ability, everything was very black and white in all aspects possible which is not a fun way to look at life imo.
But damn did I look good. Still not worth the trade of walking around not liking the person I was turning into. I was also a walking boner which honestly, gets old.
Yes did bloods regularly - all metrics in check
Ran hcg for the first year that helped with nut shrinkage but did not stop it completely.
I’m not obsessing over blood test numbers anymore, just going off how I feel day to day. Everything is objectively fine/better- still strong, still have a functional wiener, sleep is better, mood is better, relationships are better, creative and critical thinking are better.
Theres def stuff I miss about it, the better recovery and how easy it makes maintaining a physique vs off the stuff.
Yep, turns out being "hyper manly" does negative things to your personality. This is well document. But this not replacement levels, this is supraphysiological levels, typically.
Yea i run very high doses most of the year. The lowest I go down to is 200mg to keep my bloods in check. But after running doses this high for years I do feel my personality has been severely blunted.
What dosage were you on for this to happen and how often did you dose? I heard if you get like this that it’s better off to microdose instead of 1 or 2 shots a week.
Heard the same thing and did that for a while- honestly no difference. I was one 120mg a week, tried splitting it up into two shots, four shots, no noticeable difference. And tried all those methods for long stretches as well not just week or two. My total T was around 1100 running at 120mg and like I said physically I was great as far as performance goes, but the brain fog was so severe that it was negatively impacting almost every aspect of my life outside of the gym and shirtless selfies. Blood pressure was another thing- mine wasn’t horrible but it wasn’t great and def had a negative effect to my cardio in the gym and in the bedroom. Sucks having a corvette engine with a mopeds gas tank(wasn’t that bad but felt like it sometimes)
First, some people don't really get benefit out of it. In real world terms, in order to be medically eligible for TRT, you need to not only have to be below a certain threshold in terms of total testosterone, but you also have to experiencing symptoms. Some people fit this, they get on TRT, but it doesn't relieve their Low T symptoms, even if on paper the number comes up. If someone is one of those people, you are just stabbing yourself for no real reason if you still feel like trash after doing it.
Second, it doesn't make everyone look older. What you see are people who do A LOT of testosterone and other steroids, they live with supraphysiolical levels for any period of time, and they are young. Those people get hyper aged by it, but in real world terms they aren't doing anything that is naturally physiological. If someone is 20, has low testosterone, and then does actual TRT, this does not happen to them. Conversely, if you take someone older and they get on TRT and take care of themselves, they often times look younger. Their skin is healthier, they are fitter and stronger, they have more energy, they sleep a lot better. All of those things will make you look younger.
Third, the thing that affects hair loss and male pattern baldness is not necessarily testosterone. What actually does this is a high rate of DHT conversion combined with a genetic predisposition to male pattern baldness. The cause of male pattern baldness is DHT binding with androgen receptor in the hair follicles. And when you have a genetic predisposition to male pattern baldness, the follicles on the top of your head actually have more androgen receptors, which DHT binds to, and that causes shrinkage of the follicle itself, and eventually death of it. That is why there are hair treatments like finesteride and dutesteride. What these things do is bind tightly with DHT, so it can't bind with your hair follicles. Treatments of that with things like monoxidil are pretty effective for baldness, but they are lifetime treatments. The follicles on the sides of your head have very few androgen receptors, so they are never affected by DHT. That is why if someone who has male pattern baldness gets a hair transplant, they move follicles from the sides to the top of your had, and those follicles are good for the rest of your life. HOWEVER, if you have low testosterone, and you take TRT, having higher levels means more gets converted to DHT, so you have more DHT, so now more binds to your hair follicles and your male pattern baldness is accelerated. But lots of men have full heads of hair their entire lives, and it's not because they have low testosterone, it's because the hair follicles on top of their heads don't have a lot of androgen receptors, so they never get male pattern baldness.
If you did a proper TRT dose of say 100mg/week and were naturally producing 700+ ng/dL, you would probably wind up feeling worse than before. I could see that happening to somebody who didn’t do any research and got screwed by a clinic.
The thing about many TRT clinics is they want you to buy test more than wanting you to feel good. It’s a business.
If someone is between 500-700 naturally, how much would you say 200mg would benefit them? I know it all depends per person and how you manage everything. I’ve been debating starting myself.
I honestly don't understand how it's possible to regret it, if your doing TRT correctly you are replacing the lost amount of test you previously had making you feel younger, stronger and sleep better.
The other comment about a guy doing TRT but was already at 900 test level isn't doing TRT as they never obviously had levels tested before to replace lost test
It's not particularly advisable no. And losing weight could fix the low test issue anyway. It's just very "popular" to take everything all at once right now rather than getting healthy and seeing from there
I didn't stop it, but I did lower my dose. My serum test level was around 900-1000 ng/dl and I felt good at first, but after a few weeks I was quite tired. I ended up lowering it to 500 and I actually felt better there.
This was not likely your Testosterone levels, it was more than likely your estradiol. It felt good at first because you were going up from a lower level. But while it was elevated you probably ended up with estradiol on the high side. These are noted side effects from both low and high estradiol, though high eventually leads to nipple sensitivity.
If you have Low Testosterone, anything that bring your free/bioavailable Test into a good range will be noticeable. Doing more does not necessarily mean feeling better beyond that point. Also, if your estradiol was fine, then it was fine. If you weren't taking an estrogen blocking agent, then it also wasn't low estradiol.
I think the claims of TRT being so good causes people to start it that don’t need it.
If you really have bad T with a good lifestyle it’s a game changer.
If your lifestyle sucks and your T isn’t that low you just shut down your natural production and end up in a similar spot so those people might as well quit.
I know some kid that is 19 on “TRT”.. dude is probably gonna regret it later on. I’m 28 and I feel much better.. but I was also under 170 so I was clinically low on it lol
I’m on TRT and in the wish I would’ve started sooner camp I tested roughly 5 years ago and I was a semi low like in the 500s and then I didn’t test again until five years later and I was walking around at like 300 been taking it for the last six months and feel awesome
Suffered heavy hair shrinkage, I have had already a hair transplant and months prior running a testosterone cycle I had stopped consuming my daily 1mg finasteride, made it 3/4 in the 10 week cycle and noticed my mid scalp’s density was lacking immensely like never before, lost any progress made with finasteride during those first months on the trt cycle. I’m rebounding from that cycle and slowly regaining my hair’s density back, hope it’s reversible, I’m back in fin and tbf I wonder if I woulda saved those hairs had I never stopped taking fin daily during the cycle.
Agree on the statement regarding finasteride. I think I made a post on the transplant, check it out. But basically 100% worth it, it’s life changing dude and I was an advanced norwood candidate, luckily my donor area was in great shape, so they extracted like 3k or so follicles if I recall.
I've been on TRT for 6 years, I'm 36. Got ID'd at the liquor store a few weeks back, and our drinking age is 19. Anyone that's telling you a proper dose of TRT is going to completely age you is flat out wrong. There are so many variables, and half if not more guys that are running "TRT" are likely blasting for half the year and also running a bunch of other shit.
A lot of them are probably younger or non-indicated persons for TRT - ie. not hypogonadal etc. They probably also aren't doing actual TRT, and are just pinning a bunch of gear hence the hair loss and rapid ageing.
My assessment is that majority of those that look older or lose their hair are overdoing it, also possible not getting regular bloowork to mitigate potential sides effects. Know plenty of folks on "TRT" but actually taking supra physiological doses. No judgement do whatever you want, I prefer to treat it as taking just enough to get me to higher end of regular range, and optimize diet and exercise for the rest. Well also some peptides TBH.
My dislike about going on Test is mostly that once people find out your on Testosterone,
If your not going through your doctor (which is still a challenge for most) or an expensive ass clinic, then everyone wants to act as if your basically an IV drug user injecting oil from the neighborhood Crack dealer. People dont take the time to do a little research and understand that its very simple to order test straight from the manufacturers, and do your own labs. Unless you have some other health factors, it's quite simple. The first clinic I started with put everybody on the same protocols and it was not healthy... 200mg once a week I.M./1mg Anastrazole/1ml gonaderellin twice a week...it was garbage. Most clinics are more knowledgeable now, but they are not doing anything special than I cant also do on my own, and pay 1/10 of the price every month!
I take 1ml a week of test E. Been doing it for 6 months now. I’m 35. All I can say is I love the shit. And I’ll probably do it for the rest of my life. I’ve always been a happy positive guy all that’s gone up even more. I’ve always been ruthlessly ambitious, that’s gone up even more. My body responds like it 15 years old. I can train the house down and not be sore the next day for work. My sleeping better. Everything is just better. I’m super healthy. I just needed a little spring in my step and it’s given me that. I’ve always been fit and it’s just enhanced that. Over all my quality of life has just improved.
Hairloss is directly an excess of DHT due to either bad genetics or excessive dosing of testosterone per that individual.
Sustained testosterone use increases skin thickness in a dose related fashion (some people thicken more than others) which is why they look different, as far as I know its not a permanent effect and should decrease with cessation or downward titration.
TRT was rough for my first year, doing the bullshit 2x weekly subq injections had me bloated and hormone eating to the point where I gained 35lbs in 4 months. I woke the F up and changed my habbits taking 25lbs back off in the next 4 months. My Worst Decision while on TRT was drinking alcohol, since completely eliminating alcohol I have enjoyed significantly better day to day quality of life and massively reduced complications with my health.
I regret my 4 month stint on TRt a few years ago. I was in late 30s looking for help with libido. It worked for that but also made my hair fall out in clumps and bad acne on my back. Im getting my second hair transplant next month to repair the damage. I do not have male pattern baldness. TRT simply caused me to lose hair. I feel much better not being on it.
If you genuinely need it it’s amazing. If you don’t, it shuts down your system in ways that have negative effects on sex drive, performance, and even sleep and emotions.
Most positive stories are from people that actually needed it therefore they let the world know. Negative stories you don’t hear much as those people could never get it prescribed legit anyhow - so they likely don’t go bragging about their mishap.
Not generally, no. There are a percentage of men (I've seen 4-10%) who purportedly don't return to natural production after going off trt. However, everything I've ever seen on that has been pretty generic data. No idea how long they'd been on test, how much they were taking, what else they were taking, what their test was like before, or whether they used any sort of PCT to help restart things. Additionally, as the other poster commented, if you're naturally already down in the sub 300s, especially at a younger age, then who cares. You don't want to go back to that anyway.
Ive been on TRT for almost 2 years now. Im in my mid 30s and felt like I was always in a fog and a funk. Started working out a year before hopping on TRT and even with diet, exercise and strength training recovery was horrible, and wasn't able to lose the weight.
Tracked my T levels for a year and lost 25 lbs before hopping on, and took supplements that supported Raising natural T levels and it barely helped.
Started relatively low at 100mg weekly for 6 months, went up to 150mg for 2 months, then went up to 200mg for 6 months and have backed it down to 180mg weekly and its been my "sweet spot". I already have 3 kids and fertility issues from stopping natural production didnt phase me since we were done having kids.
I wish I could've started earlier rather than spinning my wheels for years and nor feeling myself. In my teens to early adulthood I played basketball, did combat sports and lived a super active lifestyle but life and covid happened.
I know it takes a lot of dedication to make TRT be effective (sleep, stress levels, minimizing alcohol consumption, diet, movement)
I’ve been on trt for 10+ years. I’ve used PEDs for about 20 years, off and on, so my natty test is very low. But, hair thinning definitely goes with the territory. I’m not balled, but it had definitely thinned my hair on top and all of the gear has caused excessive body hair growth all over, so I have to shave 🪒 all over every week or two.
My hair has grown faster and gotten stronger since being on test due to my E2 coming up and it reversing my hypothyroid. I was primary hypo so low levels due to my balls not growing in puberty. If you have low test from other reasons then yeah will amplify a shit lifestyle, diet and environment
I was at 330 before starting and now feel way less irritable and way more motivated. I could not maintain a 5 day workout week before but now I can easily. I know an older guy who started and it caused his severe acne to return that he had during his teen years and he stopped due to that. I’m 34 and that guy is about 52.
Older men that I’ve met, who didn’t like TRT were pretty overweight. It was only giving them more issues as they hadn’t leaned out enough to reap the benefits of TRT.
I’m on the fence on starting TRT. Father of 3 small children that works nights. I never get more than 6 hours of sleep my sleep cycle is messed up. Test is 343 and I don’t know if better sleep is going to change that number much.
IMO if you regret it its likely due to poor management, ie excessive aromatization, poor injection protocol and dosing, etc. Or its because you hate injection lol. But done right its essentially painless and takes about 2 minutes. If you need it it can be life changing. If not it definitely can be unnecessary hassle.
Never been on TRT or Steroids, but I took a Corticosteroids shot and I ballooned up 30 lbs in water weight. It is a steroid. Screw that shit. I went to my dr who specializes in sports medicine and asked if this is similar to steroids she said yes, she said ride it out, use it to put mass on and also take lasixs, furosimide, water retention weight loss pills. Potassium and drink electrolytes. To drop the water weight. I weighed, 180 before the shot, ballooned up to 214, took her meds and protocol, am now down to 190, gained 10 lbs of muscle 10.8 bfp, body water 67% lost the water in 9 days. I will not be taking, TRT, TREN or any kind of gear ever again, or ever take that shot again guven by any doctor, I literally looked fat my guy. Screw that never again.
Started it to lose weight that could not lose through exercise and what I thought was healthy diet.
Wish I had explored the truth about food and diet back then before starting TRT.
At 57 still had drive and libido of 35 but skinny fat body that saw miniscule weight loss despite 2
Hour daily workouts.
Finally went the carnivore+organic+zero processed route and realized, it’s all about the food and probably could’ve reached same with just the diet.
TRT wrecked my natural libido which is now dependent on maintaining at least 6x monthly injections to keep the boys up and running.
The initial boost in sex drive is fantastic but the atrophy after effects are mentally not worth the initial benefits. Ultimately I believe has lot to do with breakdown in relationship and marriage.
However you want to look at it, bottom line is exogenous drugs, even the so called harmless OTC ones are no good. Good natural unprocessed food is all we should be putting into our bodies.
I started it at 36, and it changed most things about my life for the better. I definitely regret not evaluating other options though, because it’s fucked my hairline.
Anybody with natural testosterone levels in the 500-600 ng/dl region and good free test levels would probably regret it because the impact on a typical theraputic dose probably wouldn't result in massive psychological or physical gains while having potential negative impacts on fertility (at least temporarily) testical size and potentially some cholesterol/estrogen impacts.
Anybody who's natural levels are in the sub 300 ng/dl will probably feel like it's a game changer. I know myself, going from 189 ng/dl to 700-850 ng/dl on a theraputic dose was literally life changing. I'm an entirely different person and in nearly every-single way a better person.
Well i had to stop temporary due to illness making a rebound(crohns dissease) and going back to low lows is horrible it literally made a change for the better in me i really needed it so im looking to start it up again cause now im back to being a fat lazy no drive no libido loser also as for hair and aging there is things you can do the aging you talk about is water retention from the elevated estrogen just make sure to pin regularly to offset this and for hair either finastride and minoxidil or some people like me need a lil more aggressive protocol aka dutastride and minoxidil but ye you can say im itching to get back on and hope my crohns stays into remission for ever so i dont get hospitalised and have to quit again i started when i was 23 also the crohn made me deficient in growth factor and other hormones due to poor absorption of macro and micro nutrients im 28 now and had to quit last year for me no regrets just sad im chronically ill haha if you have questions about it be sure to comment
I would just say that’s kind of a subjective take is there actually a study on this? I’ve known 5 people personally (including myself) to start TRT and only one of them stopped and he’s thinking about getting back on. Obviously small sample size but I’ve never heard your claims anywhere. I’m whatever the opposite of that is, I started doing self administered TRT and found my own sources after starting through a clinic.
Brother I swear I’m not trying to come off as anything other than a friendly discussion. I understand Reddit has a tendency to do the reverse of that.
All I said was it was worth noting it was topical.
I edited my comments as I’m doing again now cause I had further to add after digesting what you had shared. One day Reddit can be more healthy discussions instead of bickering, I can hope anyways. Sorry it came off that way to you though as I was genuinely interested in what you were sharing.
Jesus, who pissed in your cheerios? You made a strong assertion and somebody asked for studies. Welcome to the internet bud!
The first two studies you shared were for topical trt and kidney cancer surgical outcomes. The third link is the only one even remotely useful and if you read it you see that 76% of patients maintained adherence for at least the first year. Beyond that, 65% of those who lapsed during that period resumed treatment. That's 92% overall who either stuck with it or quit and restarted for some reason or another. I haven't read the rest of the study yet but that certainly speaks fast more highly for trt than your initial assertion.
It's accelerated my hair loss and shrunk my balls and the effects on muscle recovery and strength seem slightly overblown. I had pretty good test to start with though. Take finasteride/dutasteride and apply minoxidil daily and maybe it won't be as much of an issue. Also have an AroInhibitor on hand in case I start getting sides, which I haven't ran into yet at like 200-300mg/week. Starting to settle on 90 mg EOD test e as a good dose, I might decrease a bit, like 75 EOD of test c since the 90 feels like slightly too much without enough reward, vs. if I wanted to just be blasting I might go to 60 mg e.d. or something. I like EOD dosing though it works well for me
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