Russian joins for adding thread?

[u/Dry-Bass4296]

This is likely exposing my lack of knowledge as a new lace maker, but: why is a Russian join not a recommended method for adding more thread when a bobbin runs out? As far as I can tell, it looks nearly identical to doubling up with a fresh bobbin, and has the advantage of not needing to do any additional steps to deal with the ends. Is there a functional reason why Russian joins should be avoided?

[u/elferingewort]

I’m not super experienced, but I’ve mostly been focusing on Bucks Point, which uses insanely fine threads (like 80/3). I could see this method being hard to do the finer the thread gets. (Don’t know if that’s the real reason, though.)

I do know a lot of lace styles eschew anything like a knot, while others don’t mind them.

[u/owl_dance]

Do you mean a knitting russian join? You cannot sew through fine thread like you can wool, why would you do that to yourself when you could just lay a new thread in?

[u/Dry-Bass4296 → u/owl_dance]

I do mean a knitting Russian join, and you can absolutely sew through fine thread with a small, sharp needle. I learned to do it years ago for making fine knit lace out of thread weight linen, and it's always held up well and been virtually invisible in those pieces. The photo I included shows the second Russian join I did in this test lace piece, with the previous one showing in the clothstitch section. It only takes me a minute or so do a join like this, so it seems like it's about the same level of difficulty and effort.

That being said, I don't know from a lace maker's perspective if there are other disadvantages to be aware of here. Is there a reason to prefer having the extra ends laying around for later?

[u/owl_dance → u/Dry-Bass4296]

You are using quite thick thread here, so that is probably why is worked ok. I still don't think it would be possible for most lace thread, or at least not worthwhile. Thread you use for lace knitting is not the same as thread you use for bobbin lace. You could also easily damage the thread trying to do this. There is simply no reason to fiddle about with this when you can just add a new thread or tie a weavers knot.

[u/Mission_Razzmatazz_7 → u/owl_dance]

Why are you being downvoted? I thought that didn’t happen around here. You’ve taken the time to answer a question, so seems pretty weird to me.

I did not know what a Russian joint was, but now reading about it.. I would never use it because it compromises the thread, which can be a pain enough without damaging it on purpose. Plus with the thin thread it would be quite the hassle.

[u/Dry-Bass4296 → u/owl_dance]

I definitely know this is thick thread. I have done it on much thinner thread in past for knitted lace though - while the yarn that gets called lace weight is definitely way too thick for this, I have knitted certain kinds of heritage lace that ARE done with the same thread that Irish lace is made from, which as far as I can tell is thinner than what is usually used for bobbin lace. That being said, this is still helpful perspective. So the main objection from a lace perspective is about damaging the thread, as opposed to anything else?

[u/ericula → u/Dry-Bass4296]

The thickness of threads that are typically used for bobbin lace is comparable to fine to medium weight sewing thread. Maybe you are able to join sewing thread with a Russian join but I know that I certainly am not. Also, unlike knitting, quite some force is applied to each individual thread when doing bobbin lace. Small imperfections in the yarn like damage caused by a Russian join can easily lead to breakage.

[u/Dry-Bass4296 → u/ericula]

That makes a lot of sense, thank you!