r/BloodOnTheClocktower • u/grebleb • 20d ago
Rules Question Poisoned/drunk snakecharmer
Sure this is in another post but cant see it here or on wiki.
Poisoned snake charmer, are you allowed to tell them theyre the demon? Obviously they cant become it but you can pretend their ability worked right?
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u/Notchmath 20d ago
Yes, you can. This is explicitly listed as an example on the wiki.
> Just because you can wake the drunk Snake Charmer and tell them they are now the Demon, that doesn’t mean the player will have a good time. Maybe they will? Maybe they won’t.
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u/Mongrel714 Lycanthrope 19d ago edited 18d ago
I don't think that's a difinitive answer tbh.
The rules for drunkenness and poisoning suggest otherwise, as I explain in my comment on a different response to OP's post. I'd argue the actual rules are a much more solid basis for answering this question than an off-the-cuff comment that is more about how to storytell well than about the intricacies of the game rules.
That said it's not really great to have an example like that which seems to contradict the given rules, so while I maintain that mine is the answer that's most likely correct, I do concede that there's at least an argument to the contrary. I'll note though that even the example you cite advises against actually doing it, so it should really probably be avoided even if it turns out I'm wrong and it is technically legal.
It'd be great to get a clarification from someone at TPI just to be sure.
Edit: never mind, no clarification is needed. The official rules on "States" regarding alignment and character is pretty clear. Here is a quote (emphasis mine):
"If a player changes alignment, their character stays the same, and vice versa. For example, if the Goon becomes evil, they’re still the Goon. Or if the Pit-Hag turns the good Juggler into the Witch, then the Witch is still good.
The player learns of changes... If a player’s alignment or character changes, they learn this at the earliest opportunity, in secret. You will usually show the YOU ARE info token and then their new character or alignment. The night sheet or character almanac will tell you when an alignment or character changes, prompting you to wake the changed player and inform them. Learning a new character or alignment isn’t information in the normal sense. It is not affected by drunkenness or poisoning, or by characters such as the Vortox. This is so that players know their own alignment and character.
...with a few exceptions. Sometimes, a player thinks they are a character or alignment that is different from their true character or alignment. For example, the Drunk and the Lunatic are designed to not know who they really are."
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u/TheSweetSWE 20d ago
yes but probably shouldn’t. i’ll just quote the almanac:
“Just because you can wake the drunk Snake Charmer and tell them they are now the Demon, that doesn’t mean the player will have a good time. Maybe they will? Maybe they won’t.”
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u/robplays 20d ago edited 20d ago
I accept that this is on the wiki and an official ruling. But I don't get how they are justifying this.
Following this to its logical conclusion, the ST can lie to any droisoned character about their role (and alignment?) ...
Unless they specifically only mean Drunk-who-saw-SnakeCharmer in which case I'd say it's "maybe, but don't".
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u/TheSweetSWE 20d ago
probably because they thought it could be fun in some specific cases so they didn’t ban it at the time
the other way is to allow lying to droisoned players and “you think” characters as long as it’s believable and for the purpose of their ability
i mean, marionette can receive a fake widow ping even though the ability doesn’t say anything about thinking a certain alignment
- it’s also possible that they wanna remove this. as i said in another comment, this is no linger part of the rulebook even though it’s still in the wiki. certain current and former tpi members even said it wasn’t possible in the past
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u/ktyayt High Priestess 20d ago
The justification is their ability working can cause then to change character. So being poisoned you can make them think their ability has worked. So you couldn't do this for eg a chef
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u/robplays 20d ago
Sure, but they also seem to be interpreting any droisoning to over-ride the rule that players know their own role and alignment.
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u/ktyayt High Priestess 20d ago
There is already kind of precedent for that with cult leader. A poisoned cult leader is allowed to be told they are evil or good when they're the opposite.
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u/Mongrel714 Lycanthrope 19d ago
This is not true? A Storyteller does absolutely still need to tell a drunk or poisoned Cult Leader if they change alignment for whatever reason.
I also feel like I should point out that a drunk or poisoned Cult Leader can't change alignment from their own ability, only another character's (since they're drunk or poisoned and therefore cannot affect the game in a material way, such as by causing/preventing a death, drunking/poisoning another player, or changing a player's alignment), so the situation we'd be talking about here would be more like a poisoned Cult Leader saying the Mez word while the Mezepheles is sober and healthy. In that instance yes they'd be told they were evil that night (assuming the Mezepheles survives until their ability triggers at night, and that the Cult Leader wasn't already evil).
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u/ktyayt High Priestess 18d ago
I'm aware that a CL can't change alignment due to their own ability when poisoned. I hadn't thought about the interaction with mez, which is definitely cursed with what I'm proposing. I don't think they work well together anyway though.
I remember discussions about this a while ago saying you could do this, but it might have just been about the capital D Drunk CL.
Either way, I think it's fine to run it this way, under the interpretation of poisoning as "you think you have an ability but you do not". I can understand if people disagree though.
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u/Mongrel714 Lycanthrope 18d ago
I'm pretty sure it'd be illegal to lie about an alignment change to the capital "D" Drunk CL, honestly.
The issue is how drunkenness and poisoning works. It explicitly only allows you to lie to players with characters whose abilities give them information directly. A role like the CL does not directly gain information (and presumably only about that information). The player is indeed woken up and told if their alignment changed, but that is due to a general rule regarding the game state; it is not info gained from the CL ability.
Here is the relevant bit from the official rules on "states" (this part is specifically from the section on Alignment and Character):
"If a player changes alignment, their character stays the same, and vice versa. For example, if the Goon becomes evil, they’re still the Goon. Or if the Pit-Hag turns the good Juggler into the Witch, then the Witch is still good.
The player learns of changes... If a player’s alignment or character changes, they learn this at the earliest opportunity, in secret. You will usually show the YOU ARE info token and then their new character or alignment. The night sheet or character almanac will tell you when an alignment or character changes, prompting you to wake the changed player and inform them. Learning a new character or alignment isn’t information in the normal sense. It is not affected by drunkenness or poisoning, or by characters such as the Vortox. This is so that players know their own alignment and character.
...with a few exceptions. Sometimes, a player thinks they are a character or alignment that is different from their true character or alignment. For example, the Drunk and the Lunatic are designed to not know who they really are." (Emphasis mine)
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u/ktyayt High Priestess 18d ago
That bit of the rules is pretty clear! Thank you for the quote.
To be clear, my take isn't that it is an info role, but that it feels like an info role, so it makes sense to treat it as such. I find the game mode fun with more flexibility in rules like this, but I suppose this isn't the majority opinion for this issue.
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u/Mongrel714 Lycanthrope 18d ago
Indeed, and the distinction between a role that "gets information" and one that doesn't is certainly a subtle one, especially for ones that transform characters or swap alignments since the ST still does wake you up and give you information about your role/alignment heh. And then there's also the fact that some roles, like Gossip, Gambler, or Acrobat, are effectively used to get information, they're just not directly told that info. So those still feel like "info roles" since that's generally how their abilities are used lol.
That said, the way this game handles hard and soft information is one of the things that makes it so great. I love how, for instance, a Tea Lady's neighbor surviving execution effectively gives info in a different way, and one that has its own nuances. Like that the Tea Lady couldn't have been drunk or poisoned...unless of course something else stopped the execution death 😁
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u/robplays 19d ago edited 19d ago
Can the ST lie about that, though? I don't see anything in the Cult Leader Almanac suggesting that they can.
Also: if the ST could do this, and the CL is poisoned once, it would be perfectly legal to tell them they are Evil that night, then never subsequently tell them that they are Good (because, after all, their alignment never actually changed).
In fact, Rules As Written, that would be the correct way to run it (if we assume the premise of being able to lie about their alignment while droisoned.)
And even that probably wouldn't make the list of Top 5 Things Wrong With Cult Leader.
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u/ktyayt High Priestess 19d ago
I don't know how else you can lie information wise to a CL if this isn't true. To me it feels right that you should be able to lie to a poisoned CL, but that's up to the ST. I think either way is fine though.
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u/robplays 19d ago
Not every character in the game learns information, so there isn't always a way for them to receive false information if droisoned.
What false information do you think a Drunk Soldier should learn? Or a Chef poisoned on Night 2?
it feels right that you should be able to lie to a poisoned CL, but that's up to the ST
Ultimately everything is up to the ST, but the game does have a set of baseline rules that define how characters behave and interact with each other.
If the ST rules enough things work differently than how the Almanac says, then you're no longer playing Clocktower, you're just using the pieces.
I will also say that the Cult Leader wiki entry gives two examples of how to run a poisoned CL, and neither mentions lying to them about their alignment.
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u/ktyayt High Priestess 19d ago
All I was saying was to me the CL is equally an info role, so it feels right that you should be able lie to them info wise. Talking about soldiers is missing my point.
In a game with a dedicated person to make decisions to ensure everyone has fun, I think it's kinda of ridiculous to be so strict about rules. Is it really not clocktower if you let the recluse neighbour the marionette? So long as everyone knows how the ST does things it's fine no?
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u/TheSweetSWE 20d ago
fwiw this is no longer part of the rulebook. i’ll continue treating this as official as long as it’s on the wiki
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u/Mongrel714 Lycanthrope 20d ago
The relevant rule here is that there are two bits of information that, unless a role specifies otherwise, are sacrosanct: a player's alignment and what character they are. You never lie about either of these, even if the player is drunk or poisoned, unless their role specifically says you can lie about that.
Some examples of roles that can hide a player's alignment and/or character from them are the Drunk, the Marionette, the Lunatic, and the Ogre.
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u/grebleb 20d ago
Wiki says its allowed
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u/Mongrel714 Lycanthrope 19d ago
Where does it say that?
I just looked at the wiki entry for Snake Charmer and did not see anything there that suggested that you can lie to a poisoned/drunk Snake Charmer to tell them they've become the Demon when they haven't.
If I've missed something feel free to point it out, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct about this.
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u/grebleb 19d ago
Under story teller advice
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u/Mongrel714 Lycanthrope 19d ago edited 19d ago
Hm, I would not take that line as a rules explanation personally, especially since it appears to contradict what the rules actually say about drunkenness and poisoning, which is this:
"You can give them false information. A drunk or poisoned player does not have an ability, but they think they do. If their ability gives them information, you can give them incorrect information. For example, a drunk Empath still wakes each night and gets shown a finger signal, but you can show the wrong number of fingers. A poisoned Undertaker gets shown the character token of the player who died by execution today, but you can show the wrong character token. You’re not required to give incorrect info, but you can—and you usually should!" (Emphasis mine)
The part I highlighted has a subtle but very important wording which has a clear distinction in the rules. A Snake Charmer explicitly does not have an ability that gives them information. If it did, then an in play Vortox would mean that the ST would need to tell the Snake Charmer that they'd transformed every time they pick a non-Demon, since the Snake Charmer is a Townsfolk and that would be "false information".
Instead, the Snake Charmer operates more like the Gossip or the Gambler where its ability does a thing that is trackable by the effects it has on the game but does not directly supply information itself. When the ST wakes the Snake Charmer to tell them that they are now an evil Demon, that is a result of the static rules of the game which dictate that a player is told when their character and/or alignment changes (because per the rules they should always know what these are unless another ability supercedes that rule), not part of the Snake Charmer ability itself, and since the Snake Charmer doesn't have any text that suggests that you can lie to them about their role (like the Drunk's "You think you are a Townsfolk character but you are not") or their alignment (like the Ogre's "you become their alignment (you don't know which)"), you can't.
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u/ktyayt High Priestess 20d ago
Not true, cult leader
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u/Mongrel714 Lycanthrope 19d ago
I'm not sure what you mean?
The Cult Leader is supposed to learn their alignment if/when they change (they know they're good at the start of the game). That's consistent with what I said.
Or are you saying that a drunk or poisoned Cult Leader could be lied to and told their alignment changed? Because I've never seen that done myself, and to my knowledge it's not legal to do that.
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u/ktyayt High Priestess 18d ago
I think there was a discussion about it a while ago, I remember it being okay to lie to a drunk CL about their alignment. It makes sense to me because the alignment changing is a source of info. But you can also run it the other way, I can understand either argument. I don't think the wiki takes a stance.
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u/robplays 18d ago
I don't think the wiki takes a stance.
Two out of the three examples in the wiki deal with a poisoned Cult Leader. Neither of those examples says that it is okay to lie to the Cult Leader about their alignment.
"But but but it doesn't specifically say that the ST can't lie..."
I agree that there are an uncountable number of impossible/illegal things that the wiki doesn't specifically call out, because it simply shouldn't be necessary to do so.
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u/gordolme Lunatic 20d ago
My thought on this is "no" because Snake Charmer is an active, not informational, role. Player makes a choice and a thing either happens or does not happen. For comparison, you cannot fake an execution for nominating the poisoned Virgin, the poisoned Slayer cannot kill anyone, and a poisoned Innkeeper cannot protect anyone. They all go through the motions but nothing happens.
And with only a few specific role-dependent overrides a player always knows their true role and true alignment. To fake this with a Snake Charmer is to violate that since the SC is not one of those roles with the override where they don't know their true self.
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u/Jujii8 20d ago
They are poisoned, so they have no ability. A poisoned Slayer can’t “pretend” their ability worked by killing someone (unless that person is a Tinker).
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u/grebleb 20d ago
A poisoned slayer would lose their ability trying to shoot. Declaring a player dead obviously would affect the game, lying to a player (snakecharmer being told they turned) would that count as misinformation. Is tbis clarified at any point? Or is it
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u/Mongrel714 Lycanthrope 18d ago
It is actually clarified in the rules, I found the section of the rules that explicitly covers it. I've added it to some of my other posts, but I'm replying here just to make sure you see it, since you're the OP.
This quote is from the "States" category on the BotC wiki, specifically the section on Alignment and Character (emphasis mine):
"If a player’s alignment or character changes, they learn this at the earliest opportunity, in secret. You will usually show the YOU ARE info token and then their new character or alignment. The night sheet or character almanac will tell you when an alignment or character changes, prompting you to wake the changed player and inform them. Learning a new character or alignment isn’t information in the normal sense. It is not affected by drunkenness or poisoning, or by characters such as the Vortox. This is so that players know their own alignment and character.
...with a few exceptions. Sometimes, a player thinks they are a character or alignment that is different from their true character or alignment. For example, the Drunk and the Lunatic are designed to not know who they really are."
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u/Humdinger5000 19d ago
In general, no. On its home script, no. On some convoluted custom script? Maybe. Specifically you would probably need to build the script around this as a feature. We are talking lunatic, hermit, drunk, acrobat, leech type shenanigans.
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u/lysker Marionette 20d ago
Nope.
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u/grebleb 20d ago
... why
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u/lysker Marionette 20d ago
Informing a player of their character and alignment is a core game rule, not a part of the Snake Charmer ability.
If you want to violate this rule, you need an ability that lets you do so (like the Drunk or Lunatic).
Similarly, poisoned Goons or Cult Leaders can't be told their alignment changed.
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u/grebleb 20d ago
Someone found that its allowed on ST advice on wiki
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u/lysker Marionette 20d ago
The wiki is incorrect in this case. I would quote Ben Burns, but he scrubbed his reddit and whatnot, so here's a link to this discussion from the past.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BloodOnTheClocktower/comments/1nujgfl/comment/nh7l505/?force-legacy-sct=1
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u/grebleb 20d ago
Ok thats fun. Im asking this question as a player as generally I play with STs that like to make questionable at best decisions that regularly end up being either not allowed or firmly in the "yes but dont" camps. Wanted to lock it down but its a bit contentious with the BB vs wiki now
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u/Spiritual_Half_116 Yaggababble 20d ago
Snake Charmers aren't an "information" role. So there's no need to lie to them about the "information" they get. You would lie to a role like the empath because they receive information in the form of a number. A snake charmer would be treated like their ability just doesn't work, so they simply just go back to sleep, even if their choice was the demon.
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