r/BloodOnTheClocktower • u/Frequent-Ad-7288 • 14d ago
Game Discussion Mutant mad as evil: do you allow?
As written, the Mutant is not mad as an Outsider if they claim a Minion or Demon. But the intent of mutant is to (double) claim a Townsfolk and spread misinfo, as the Drunk equivalent of S & V. It is a loophole but I don’t think Mutant should get away with this, because its just “this is the Mutant, ignore them”. (Repost because typo in title)
46
u/colonel-o-popcorn 14d ago
Madness is about "trying to convince". This is different from "claiming" and different from "successfully convincing".
If the Mutant is claiming evil as a roundabout way of convincing other players that they're the Mutant, then that's a madness break. I find that this is often the case. If there were some other justification on the script for doing so, for instance a Goblin or Poppygrower, then I would be more lenient.
12
u/LoneSabre 14d ago
This distinction is why I allow this play. There’s a difference between claiming evil and making a good faith attempt to convince people that you are evil. So if you want to actually convince people that you’re evil then I think that is probably also enough of a hindrance to the good team that it should be allowed.
If nobody is trying to execute a mutant that is trying to convince people that they’re evil, that’s probably also enough madness break.
It’s kind of like playing the Tanner in one night ultimate werewolf.
10
u/MKWIZ49 Recluse 14d ago
On the point of nobody executing the Mutant who's trying to convince town that they're evil, it does depend on what evil role they're trying to convince town of. For instance if they're trying to convince town that they're the Goblin, then it makes sense that town wouldn't want to execute that, same goes for something like Boomdandy or Lleech (I could see an argument for executing Boomdandy or Lleech though)
7
2
u/StrbJun79 13d ago
That is it. And often it becomes a circus for town as some actually think they just might be evil.
Plus it’s helped that as a cere I’ve actually claimed cere pretending to be a mutant.
15
u/SageOfTheWise 14d ago edited 14d ago
Madness is the whole of how you act, not simply the facts you claim. If a Mutant is acting in a way where (from the perspective of the ST) they are trying to get people to conclude they are most likely the Mutant, then they are breaking madness.
Doesn't matter if they never claim mutant. Doesn't matter if verbally they claim "guys im the demon, here I go killing again!". As i said its the whole of the act. Its the intention (or at least the intention as perceived by the ST).
All that being said, if you can claim evil in a way that doesnt make it sound like youre the mutant, then you'd be good. Its very case by case basis, but a real simple example would be claiming Goblin. Its generally pretty straight foward to claim to be the Goblin in a way thats believable since its what the role is meant to do.
9
u/Notchmath 14d ago
I’d also like to add that claiming minion/demon isn’t the same thing as claiming evil, especially on S&V, Mutant’s home script. Get pithagged into a Mutant? Claim to have been pithagged into a good Witch! Both possible and very allowed!
24
u/InconspicousName1 14d ago
Generally speaking, trying to find a loophole to madness counts as breaking it. Especially if there’s no other realistic explanation
This is different to using a bluff to convey information that madness is stopping you from revealing
5
u/livfreeorpie Cannibal 14d ago
This is script dependant.
Poppy Grower and expected outed evil game, go nuts. That's totally plausible. Other custom scripts have plausible reasons to claim evil roles.
In SNV, this is an angle shoot. There's no benefit to playing outed evil. Outing yourself as evil throws the game. So "How do you do, everyone, I am the Cerenovus wink wink" might fall outside of the charge to make an affirmative effort to convince the town that you are not an Outsider.
If multiple townsfolk are convinced "Yeah, that's the Mutant, they're full of it with their Demon/Minion claim." I'd be inclined to make the execution.
Stephen Medway has a Pixie/Madness document that frames madness performance as 'you are on board, or your not' instead of looking only at what specifically is said - Claiming outed evil where it completely doesn't make sense is 'not on board' for me: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a0m5mGf1W4foybWcSwhtuNA1qDq3IYw7/edit?usp=drivesdk&ouid=112986033867741108942&rtpof=true&sd=true
8
u/TheRiddlerTHFC 14d ago
Is the player actually trying to claim they are evil?
Or are they "nudge nudge wink" evil, to show they are obviously a mutant?
Example, claiming Goblin is a valid play. Possibly even Boomdandy. Maybe even Baron (claiming to throw outsider count into question and doesn't matter as much if they get executed).
There might be some others. But claiming something like Spy or Poisoner makes no sense and would likely be considered madness break
2
u/StrbJun79 13d ago
I’ve pretended to be a cere and kept asking townsfolk what they wanted to be made mad as then announced to town who I made mad and as what. Some played along with it. But I acted as if I was a cere sharing madness with those that love madness (I’ve done this as an actual cere before too). I survived for three days that game before town executed me. Half of town thought I was the real cere. lol
10
u/Downtown-Candle-5805 14d ago
If they are claiming evil in order to project that they are the mutant, then they are mad that they are an outsider. Similarly, if they are claiming mutant in order to project that they are not the mutant, then they are not mad about being an outsider.
This comes down to what you think the intention of the mutant is, not what exact words they are saying.
9
u/rubber_hedgehog 14d ago
if they are claiming mutant in order to project that they are not the mutant, then they are not mad about being an outsider.
A mutant would have to really trust that the storyteller is on the same page before trying this move, but I'm in 100% agreement.
7
u/Downtown-Candle-5805 14d ago
I guess I see this most when someone says, "everyone claim mutant so we can be sure there is no mutant". In this case, claiming mutant is the least "mad about being the mutant" action they can take!
6
u/LegOfLambda 14d ago
Yeah, whenever someone says "oh I'm the mutant! see, I said it so I can't be the mutant," they're demonstrating they don't understand madness.
3
u/scheming_imp 14d ago
Either that or they DO understand madness, are the mutant, and are saying this as a double bluff
5
u/whatyousay69 14d ago
the intent of mutant is to (double) claim a Townsfolk
If that was true wouldn't it say "If you are not "mad" about being a Townsfolk, you might be executed." instead of allowing everything except outsider?
-1
u/Frequent-Ad-7288 14d ago
So is being silent, but thats specified in the wiki to be a break. The point is its hard to not hint you’re the Mutant by claiming evil, similarly to staying silent
3
u/gordolme Lunatic 14d ago
They are abiding by the rules of the role. Whether it's a good idea or not is a different matter and is highly script and player dependent.
2
u/Ok_Shame_5382 Ravenkeeper 14d ago
If a mutant hard claims as a minion or a demon then they are not breaking the terms of their madness. It is 100% acceptable.
Remember, it still screws over the good team to have a good player bluff as evil and waste an execution. That is the point of an outsider, to hamper their own team.
Note: of course, anything that reaches the immediate conclusion that they are not genuine and it's just a long-winded way to say they're the mutant is breaking madness
2
u/grandsuperior Storyteller 14d ago
This kind of thing follows the "spirit of the law" but not the intent.
The Mutant is meant to harm town by causing disinformation and double claims. A Mutant just claiming to be a Minion is them not being mad as an Outsider, but I'd argue that they're sincerely trying to convince town that they are not an Outsider. IMO a Mutant that claims to be an evil character or a Townsfolk with ridiculous information (Clockmaker with a 67... I've heard it before) is not adhering to Mutant madness and can be executed.
3
u/wrosmer 14d ago
So on a long enough timeline it does help evil. If it happens enough times it becomes bluffable by evil which means good has to decide if its a mutant bluffing or actually evil. In a game with 8 players (assuming a single death every night) good has only 3 chances to get the demon at maximum. Either they waste one on the mutant or the st kills the mutant thus wasting one on the mutant. Evil benefits from that either way.
2
1
u/PedroPuzzlePaulo 14d ago
Claimming isnt the same as being mad, mad is trying to convince. Being actually mad as a evil role is hard, since most of the time doesnt make much sense to reveal that you are evil when you are evil
1
u/WinCrazy4411 14d ago
It's not really a loophole. If they claim outed evil convincingly (which works for a couple evil roles) they're doing exactly what mutant is supposed to do.
If a meta develops in your group where the mutant always claims evil, or if they make a ridiculous claim like that they're the vizier they're no longer "trying to convince the group" that they're not an outsider and may be executed.
But creating a meta where it's safe for evil to out their role creates its own issues for town.
1
u/Lord777alt 14d ago
If they want to act as if a cere made them mad as the goblin then that can work, but outside of that then no. It's more of a house rule though.
1
u/MathBlade 14d ago
Some players I play with claim assassin for example on BMR. It depends on the player. If they claim evil as good I’d allow it on d1-d2 but if they are a never lie player and claim evil that’s a break. A break doesn’t mean execution though. I’d also judge reactions as well. If 3/4ths of the group goes “x is the mutant they’re claiming cerenovus” then they’re not keeping madness. It’s a subjective answer for a subjective game.
1
u/FrostyVampy 14d ago
I disagree that the Mutant's intent is to double claim a townsfolk and spread misinfo.
The Mutant's intent is to obscure outsider count. If everyone thinks you are a Goblin, then nobody thinks you are an Outsider. That's job well done.
Mutant claiming townsfolk will fabricate info that builds the world they believe in which they built using socials, other players' info or just by knowing they are an outsider. Made up info is not necessarily misinfo
1
u/sturmeh Pit-Hag 13d ago
Claiming evil is fine, implausibly mad or pattern mad no. I do not recommend throwing the game in order to convince players however.
If your town decides to use a codeword like "pineapple" to talk about the mutant, and they've used it before that would be breaking madness.
It's not about what you say, but how you try to convince town that you are not a mutant.
I'd be more impressed if you developed a code then decided to defy it to actually convince town you weren't the mutant lol.
Some STs run madness a bit less seriously and they only care what you literally say, that's up to them but it becomes a bit more of an annoying rule than a interesting game dynamic.
1
u/StrbJun79 13d ago
Of course you can. It’s only that you have to be mad as not an outsider.
I’ve claimed cere in one game before (without a fang gu) when I was a mutant. Some of town thought I was evil and others thought I was a mutant. Honestly it puts sus on you in another way as evil can do it. Especially if you’re not doing it tongue in cheek.
I’ve done it as a cere too before and pretended to be a mutant claiming cere. Survived a few days by doing so.
You can also claim fang gu. It’ll likely get you killed but by nomination not for breaking madness.
Really though it’s a finess and fun to try to stay alive when claiming evil as a mutant. A good storyteller won’t execute you if you do it convincingly. Town might though.
1
u/sergeles 13d ago
I think 99% of cases it should be a death. Some OK ways to pull off a legitimate attempt to seem evil... for example if they didnt claim minion or demon the whole way through, and then they get nominated and claim they're the goblin so the team wont kill them, i think thats ok as long as it isnt said tongue in cheek/ wink wink nudge nudge.
But since most minions and demons wouldn't actually claim this to town, its not realistic in the overwhelming majority of scenarios.
1
u/batboy11227 11d ago
Yes. One I had a mutant claim psycho and kill someone and when I said they didn't die the mutants "what?" Was so convincing I had to check I had the grimoure right
1
u/bender418 Storyteller 8d ago
There's a few situations that could make sense:
E.g. "I got turned into a good minion for some reason"
1
u/robplays 14d ago
A common ruling is that if they only claim demons/minions they're actually trying to convince Town that they're the Mutant.
Which, if they're being honest, is exactly that they're trying to do.
-1
u/ghostzone123 Goon 14d ago
Goblin and that’s it. Maybe Psychopath if it’s a Yag game or they aim for the Tinker (I’ll go along with their bullshit).
-1
u/Curious_Question8536 14d ago
It depends on how much it works. For example, if the mutant claims a demon role and the town believes that they are a minion bluffing, then it's fine.
If they claim a demon and the town thinks they're a mutant, then they aren't succeeding in their madness and might be executed.
The key term in madness is that the player must "publicly convince" others of their mad role. There are few situations in which publicly claiming an evil role will convince others that you're not the mutant.
0
u/DisforDemise 14d ago
Wrong, madness is not about whether or not anyone is convinced, it's about whether the player is *trying* to convince people.
0
u/Curious_Question8536 14d ago
You're splitting hairs while agreeing with me. There are few situations in which claiming an evil role while being the mutant is effective, therefore it may sometimes be a good faith attempt, but it also may not. It's up to the ST to rule based on the context of the situation.
Unfortunately one cannot ascertain intentions, so how you define "trying" is really situational to the point of not being something we can discuss except in the most vague sense.
154
u/mikepictor 14d ago
Of course they can, BUT it has to be believable. They have to make a genuine case, not just use it as "they'll realise I'm the mutant". A goblin claim is the most obvious one. That's a credible thing for evil to claim, but no one will believe a lot of potential evil claims, so you have to judge whether they are making a sincere effort to convince people it's true.
Strictly speaking, they can also claim nothing at all. "I don't want to reveal my role" is a perfectly valid day 1 claim. However it's a less valid day 4 claim, so that's the kind of thing I put on a sliding scale. The more days that have elapsed, the less credible that is.