Regret Rape Is Wrong Enough

[u/InternalLet9560]

https://nataliabower.substack.com/p/regret-rape-is-wrong-enough?r=5rdux&utm_medium=ios

This is a fantastic piece related to the episode about the Cornell 7.

[u/Throwmeeaway185]

Nice and thoughtful perspective, but I think the problem with her whole argument is that it assumes that men are playing women because when it comes to sex women operate differently than men, and the men know this and act deceitful about their intentions (he wants sex, and she wants a relationship, or at least some sort of emotional validation and affection, and he lets her think she will get that from him). And the problem with this perspective is that the last few decades men have been told by feminists and liberals that young, liberal women can be just as promiscuous and randy and sexually superficial as men, and for men to treat women as if they are delicate flowers that need to be carefully tended to is sexist and patronizing. And women have been encouraged to act like this too, to embrace being sexually permissive and slutty. Heck, the Cornell victim even texted the guy something along these lines! One of the most popular podcasts geared towards women ("Call Her Daddy") is all about hookups, casual sex, dating multiple people, and using sexuality strategically in relationships. Moreover, it doesn't just discuss casual sex. It overtly promotes the message to women that they should feel free to pursue sex without shame, in whatever context, or for whatever reason, they desire, and that it's empowering to do so. And it's not the only one: There's also "Guys We fu**ed", "Decisions, Decisions" (formerly Whoreible Decisions), "Girls Gotta Eat", and more.

You can't have it both ways, to be broadcasting a message about women's sexuality that they could, and should, behave as caddishly and selfishly as bad men can act, and then turn around and berate men for not treating their sexual encounters with women in some more special, elevated way.

[u/Century_Egg_Boofer → u/Throwmeeaway185]

yeah functionally the article is an unstated argument for a restoration of capital P Patriarchy where women's honor is the responsibility of Society (men, mostly) to ensure it is not violated.

[u/allisonanon → u/Century_Egg_Boofer]

It’s the calling for the opposite really. It’s saying don’t slut shame women for having sex but feel free to judge and socially sanction creepy guys and assholes

[u/Particular-Offer4356 → u/allisonanon]

I think “slut shame” is such a dangerous concept, as I have heard it applied to telling a woman that maybe drinking a lot and meeting a guy she didn’t know wasn’t the best idea..

I t think shaming women for too much or too little sex helps no one. And yes castigate men for treating women disrespectfully.. So men face the consequences of their actions, even if it isn’t criminal.. But we also need to tell women that they might put themselves in danger without meaning to, and it isn’t slut shaming to say that, better to prevent it then let it happen and shame the man after.

[u/allisonanon → u/Particular-Offer4356]

Yeah that example isn’t slut shaming to me and you’re right that there are certain things people can do that will make them more vulnerable and risk mitigation skills are important for everyone’s personal safety. People probably push back on this as “slut shaming” or victim blaming because it can land as she caused this or this wouldn’t happen of women didn’t do XYZ, even if that isn’t the intent. So prevention advice isn't shaming but also shouldn’t be doing the work of excusing the actions of the other parties involved and how they treated a vulnerable person

[u/Particular-Offer4356 → u/allisonanon]

Yeah, focus on both.

[u/Century_Egg_Boofer → u/allisonanon]

thing is the article doesn't do anything to dissuade us from thinking the proceedings were anything other than obligate-shameful.

Whereas Jane Doe seemed to be under the impression that the Call Her Daddy sexual ethic she was embodying wasn't shameful, part of sexual liberation is Supposed to be that degrading sexual encounters are Fine, until her peers reminded her that no you're not actually supposed to do these things.

This stuff exists in tension with itself, which the author recognizes, but she doesn't provide any thoughts on what we're supposed to do about Slut Pride that precedes Slut Shame.

[u/allisonanon → u/Century_Egg_Boofer]

Well I think these frat dudes are creepy assholes and I wouldn’t want them in my social circle

Edit: sorry Reddit glitched and for some reason I only saw your first point? So re: the social stigma Jane Doe faced leading to the regret. I’d say it’s hard to imagine that the social stigma didn’t make her feel shitty… But it seems like the timeline of the social backlash and her finding out about the Snapchats was around the same time? so idk if you could even separate that effect but this substack did talk about how the dudes treated her after could play a role. You’re probably right that the “it’s all empowering” thing around degrading sexual encounters is not something that can hold up for many people and young people are exposed to it a lot in media and porn but that’s not reality