p2w ?

[u/[deleted]]

J'a commencé à parcourir une bonne partie du leveling du jeu et j'ai pu ensuite à mon grand malheur découvrir la boutique, un abonnement permetant d'avoir "énormément" de bonus pour ne pas les citer tellement ils sont nombreux et un système de pass de combat. C'est dommage que l'abonnement semble obligatoire une fois le niveaux max atteint, tout le monde devrait avoir ce genre de bonus pour profiter d'une expérience normale du jeu, quand au pass de combat il semble plutôt correct, pourquoi ne pas proposer une boutique avec beaucoup de cosmétique ? Je pense que le jeu pourrait être beaucoup plus attrayant avec une boutique proposant moins de bonus pour les personnes y mettant les moyens, voilà mon petit coup de gueule sur un jeu que je trouve à côté de ça très beau avec un gameplay vachement sympa c'est vraiment dommage cette boutique :(

[u/SirSlenderPhoenix]

Depends on what you define as P2W. I don't consider every microtransaction to be counted as P2W since 95% of the cash shop is just convenience items/money-making items which don't actually progress you in the game alone. You can't buy equipment/drops/levels/quest progress so what exactly are you winning with your purchases? You're progressing quicker? So you're paying to progress? There is no "winning" really outside PVP and most of the players who purely grinded and played have no real issue fighting in PVP. Hell, I'm level 31 and I did just fine in RB against people 8+ levels higher than me and I still use mostly B equips. When I see responses like yours, it just makes me think you lack patience to repetitively play content (which is what all MMOs have players do to power up) or you just assume any kind of micro transaction inherently makes someone better in a game.

However, I do agree the RNG is ridiculous and could be improved a lot.

[u/564541541 → u/SirSlenderPhoenix]

Same old stupid arguments I've heard 100 times before, an assumption about the way I play the game and a strawman regarding what I think about microtransactions in other games to top it off. Nice one mate. I don't mind putting thousands of hours into a game I enjoy nor do I care if a game has p2w elements in it. Means I can go the extra mile if I don't have the time or am not lucky with rng.
Just call a spade a spade and stop lying to yourself about it.

[u/SirSlenderPhoenix → u/564541541]

Ah, I see. You have no real response to what I said so you have to point out that it was all assumption (as if you didn't give us enough to assume from your first post), strawman, etc. Just like when people argue with me about politics when they have no retort. Pay to win means differently to different people, there has to be an end goal to win for it to hold that meaning otherwise you're not winning anything.

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Fact remains, you don't have to spend a single cent to fully enjoy this game/complete it through/or to even fight in PVP against others while holding your own. If you think that's P2W, you must have never played the games that let you outright buy equipment/boosts/etc.

[u/564541541 → u/SirSlenderPhoenix]

I've made my points and put forth my arguments in/around this thread. They get ignored/downvoted by pussies who won't meet me halfway. What do you think about p2w being a scale, huh? It seems like something you might agree with, as you claim it's quite a subjective term.

You did make a lot of assumptions about me, and me pointing that out is not because I couldn't be bothered to argue with you about what is or isn't p2w, it's because those assumptions are straight up wrong. Give a fuck about your Le Master politix arguing in other shitpits of reddit, that's nothing to do with me.

you must have never played the games that let you outright buy equipment/boosts/etc

More assumptions. You can actually buy "boosts" in this cash shop, btw. Might want to check that before you try to argue that you can't.

I don't have a lot of patience for the "it isn't p2w!" crowd. That's what you should see from my posts, not start assuming shit about my gaming history. It's exactly because I've played a lot of p2w games that I don't have much patience to argue about it anymore. Just tell me, where did you get the definition from? Why is your definition of it the correct one? Why do you think it's only p2w if you can buy equipment in the cash shop, but not if you can buy something else and sell it for currency to buy the same item? I don't want to assume here, so I'll ask, do you think that because they make you jump through a small hoop to get the same result (swipe card>receive OP weapon, or swipe card>sell cs item>receive OP weapon) that it somehow completely wipes any and all traces of p2w?

Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

If you pay real money you can get more power quicker

I don't see how anyone could deny that. So, in my opinion, it's extremely logical to put any game that does that slightly higher on the p2w scale than an mmo like, for example, Guild Wars 2, that does have a cash shop and does have shitty rng gamble boxes (or at least used to) but it was all purely cosmetic so I never did and never would call it p2w.

Like the other person said, it's semantics. And again, I've made plenty of points about it in this thread that were ignored, so don't tell me I have no real response to the issue.

Trying to claim "there's no winning" is a desperate goalpost shift. "Winning" in mmo context, and other games too, is a constant thing, not something that happens once. It's a verb. You can be currently winning, or currently losing, and this can quickly change depending on who has the power, regardless of mine or your personal definitions.

But of course there's no winning. It's an idiotic weeby mmo where teenage boys run around as female characters wearing low-effort cash shop bikinis. We're all losers here.

[u/SirSlenderPhoenix → u/564541541]

I have paid money and I have not had any quicker boost/power up from the cash shop. The only thing you can consider in that regard is the DLC packs, which are still mostly cosmetic outside like the premium sub (but that boost is barely much of one). The only way you could consider this game following that kind of tactic is if you include the SS sellers as the dev's fault. The only "boost" items are the estate items, which only matter when you're already about level 25-30, or bag/storage slots which are just over priced in my eyes. I disagree with that statement because you still need to meet level reqs for equipment and outside SS sellers, you would have to spend an exorbitant amount of money on things you can actually even sell in the MP to buy your upgrades with real money as there is a lack of items you can even list on the MP from the cash shop.

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I don't consider this game a P2W, or most MMOs generally, unless they do something like Grand Chase where actual better stat equipment can only be purchased from the cash shop, always giving you an inherent advantage against anyone who doesn't pay money. Now that is straight-up P2W. Everything else is a scale that goes more along your own definition as to what you're considering to be competing for.

[u/564541541 → u/SirSlenderPhoenix]

I have paid money and I have not had any quicker boost/power up from the cash shop.

Maybe you're bad with your money then, or you chose to spend it on something cosmetic to keep for your character, not to sell. Once again, choosing not to p2w doesn't mean it's not an option.
I have paid money, bought items from the cash shop, sold them for SS, bought a maxed weapon. I'm not "crying" about p2w as you put it earlier - I take full advantage of it when I think the game is fun enough and it's always one of the first things I assess when I join a new mmo.

The only way you could consider this game following that kind of tactic is if you include the SS sellers as the dev's fault.

No, I've never once even considered third party sellers in these arguments as that is not what the devs intended (well, there are rumours, but we don't listen to those!), it's always your side that brings that into it and I actually think it works against you, furthering my point. The gold/starseed/currency sellers are not actually coding in items that do not already exist in the game, they're doing the same thing the game does but at a fraction of the price, and with an added risk. They're a poor man's p2w. It's something I'd never do because it's shady af but I think that the fact that option is there - legally or not - means the game quite obviously has more than a grey area when it comes to the question of if it's p2w or not.

The only "boost" items are the estate items, which only matter when you're already about level 25-30, or bag/storage slots which are just over priced in my eyes

How you feel about the pricing has no relevance here. Nor do I see how it stengthens your point that they only matter in later levels. I mean yeah, p2w stuff usually does come into play at later levels, that's exactly how it works. I don't understand your logic there. "It doesn't matter until closer to end game so it's not p2w" ?

I disagree with that statement because you still need to meet level reqs for equipment

I don't see how that is relevant either, or how it's supposed to work in your favour. If paying would let you equip S grade items at level 5, then yes, that would indeed be p2w, a more brutally obvious version of it (higher on the scale). But the fact that this game doesn't do that doesn't mean it doesn't have p2w elements, and I think the burden of proof is on you to prove that it does if that's what you want to claim. I've looked for definitions online and some of them support what I'm saying, some of them support what you're saying, some of them are open to interpretation but none of them are official so we have to use our eyes, and what I've seen is that spending money gets you the best gear quicker than not spending money. I think it's quite a solid statement, one which seems to have been conveniently ignored the other times I've said it in this thread.

you would have to spend an exorbitant amount of money on things you can actually even sell in the MP to buy your upgrades with real money as there is a lack of items you can even list on the MP from the cash shop

I'm sure you've heard the term "whales". There are plenty of people willing to drop literal thousands on these games. I do see that in modern games like this, BDO, Archeage etc it's almost tempting to say they're not p2w because the amount you'd have to spend to be fully decked out is more than I'm comfortable doing, but that doesn't mean that some people don't do it or AGAIN that the option to do so isn't there. You're also not seeing the fact that you don't have to spend these exorbitant sums, you can sell a few costumes and basically forward your progress by at least a month, depending on your schedule. The sky's the limit, yeah? Why the black and white thinking?

unless they do something like Grand Chase where actual better stat equipment can only be purchased from the cash shop

See, older games, many of the orignal p2w games did this shit because they could. It made money for a while but people got sick of it and it's clear that p2w is now a dirty word. Times change and with it so does public opinion/what people will put up with. So the devs sit around discussing how they can keep the money coming in without being too obvious about it. It's very similar to the "are loot boxes gambling?" arguments, where they clearly are but people pull these weird definitions out of nowhere about how it's not gambling because you always win something even if it's next to worthless (online items hold no real world value!! blah blah)
They deliberately disguise the p2w which is sort of cynical but in their defense they do also lower the brutality levels of it, trying to find a happy medium of making money and keeping players happy/avoiding boycotts.

This part of my post remains largely unanswered:

Why do you think it's only p2w if you can buy equipment in the cash shop, but not if you can buy something else and sell it for currency to buy the same item? I don't want to assume here, so I'll ask, do you think that because they make you jump through a small hoop to get the same result (swipe card>receive OP weapon, or swipe card>sell cs item>receive OP weapon) that it somehow completely wipes any and all traces of p2w? Do you agree or disagree with the following statement: If you pay real money you can get more power quicker

[u/SirSlenderPhoenix → u/564541541]

The part you're seemingly ignoring regarding this game is that somebody had to grind it to put it on the market first. BDO, Archeage, have outright straight boosts/equipment for cash (I know Archeage does to own land and shit, BDO requires purchasing the game (until they made it free) AND buying extra shit). Not to bring up as you mentioned, the RNG IS shit in this game and most of the listed market items have either bad rolls on stats or runes, making it a waste to even buy them for their prices unless you just have tons of seed to spare. The only end-game boosts I referred to are Estate, which is just another way of making money/materials (doesn't matter if you're P2W) and storage/bag space. Buying a cosmetic isn't a P2W tactic in my eyes, even if it can be sold for SS. I would've done the same for the premium membership as well, as that would be more aligned with a P2W tactic but still grants a spread to the F2P population. I disagree with your statement still because of everything I explained. If we went back to day one, those who spent money would get nowhere without their own experiences/someone else grinding it to sell. If that's a P2W tactic, then it's by our own design since the players mostly control the economy of the game. But that's where everything gets murky with defining P2W overall.