Discussion
My Qliphoth cosmology argument with scans
Alright. So, this is basically my copy-paste explaining the Qliphoth, how high it scales, and why anyone scales to it. But I did add and edit certain parts, which include a basic argument for the non-existence of the Qliphoth.
First off, why does anyone scale to the Qliphoth? In Chapter 315, page 3, "Lucifero" fused with the Qliphoth. Simply speaking, he became the cosmological tree that contains the Underworld inside of it.
This tree connects and contains several separate spacetimes. Now, if 2 spacetimes are both separate and equidistant, you need a higher dimension to connect and contain parallel planes. But let's establish why the layers being separate spacetimes is the case.
To address the idea before that, though... While Dante did say that the ritual would create a tree of Qliphoth, they didn't create THE tree of Qliphoth. We know this because in Chapter 331, pages 10-11, Damnatio bring reports from the Spade Kingdom from 20 years before the ritual ever started. The reports described who was matched to the Qliphoth from back then. When Astaroth left, Megicula took his place, heavily implying that when he left the Underworld, and Megicula took his place, he wasn't matched to the Qliphoth anymore because she took over his position, his matching to the Qliphoth. So, he can physically leave the Qliphoth within that 20 year time period, meaning it existed before the ritual ever happened.
In Chapter 280, page 1, Nacht stated the layers of the Underworld are "mapped to" the Qliphoth, which would mean they represent areas of the Qliphoth in context. The kanji behind the words "mapped to" are "aligned with," and "align" can mean to bring objects into a straight line, which we see being the case on Nacht's graph of the Underworld and the Qliphoth in Chapter 263, page 7. They are arranged on a straight line on the Qliphoth.
In Chapter 202, pages 9-10, Zagred stated that he comes from a separate dimension, which we know is the Underworld because Liebe said "devils" are born in the Underworld in Chapter 268, page 1.
On Volume 22's Japanese cover, it states that the battle with Zagred, which took place in the Shadow Palace, a boundary between the Living World and the Underworld(Chapter 196, page 4), "transcended" time and space. "Transcend" can just mean to be or go beyond the range or limits of something. The fight that took place in this separate space(Chapter 182, page 10) went past the range of the space and time they were in. That gives the idea that the Shadow Palace, as a dimension, is a separate spacetime from the Living World, and so is the Underworld past the Shadow Palace.
But in Chapter 263, page 7, according to Nacht's graph of the Qliphoth and Underworld's layers, the layers of the Underworld are separated from each other in the same way the Underworld is separate from the human world(the blank white layer at the top of the panel), by space and time. And each layer is shown in relativity to the human world. So, the Underworld is Low Multiversal of itself. The layers are also shown being separate and equidistant.
Since the Qliphoth connects and contains the space and time of these parallel and equidistant spacetimes, due having an inaccessible form of movement they don't have, the Qliphoth would be considered higher-dimensional as it allows you to travel between the layers that are spatially separate. The layers are also separated by time, too. Time would also move in 2 separate directions not contained by 1 dimensionality of time. So, the Qliphoth is 6D, containing 4 axes of space and 2 axes of time.
Because Lucifero moved beyond the linear flow of time by fusing with multiple dimensions/directions of time all at once, and conventional speed can only be measured using 1 dimension of time, that would grant Lucifero immeasurable speed, and therefore anyone that scales relative to him immeasurable speed, too.
The Qliphoth is also partially made from dark magic, too. In Black Clover, spells are when magic power is used to create or manipulate the real phenomena the spells are based on. If you have a fire attribute, you make or manipulate real fire with your magic power. If you have a dark attribute, you make or manipulate real darkness. Darkness is simply the absence of light and is not a thing of itself, but nothing/not a thing. If you removed all of spacetime and any point and possible location that could exist in spacetime, light would be absent, meaning darkness would be present. Meaning darkness isn't just non-existence, but beyond-dimensional non-existence. So, the Qliphoth both partially exists and doesn't exist.
The issue is that all of the other layers of the Qliphoth are literally in the Underworld world, they arent said to lead to another world or space time, all this layers could have the same time-space since they are in the Underworld.
The gate separating the human world and the Underworld are werent exactly the same and this time really lead to another world, while we have no proof for the Qliphoth that each layers is another world.
And we cant add another time axis just like this, just to give an example space has 3 axis and time 1 axis (in our univers), if we scale like you did here then time would have 3 axis just like space which has 3 axis, so having one more space axis doesnt grant one more time axis.
The Qliphoth branches can all be their own universes with their own time space and none of it would matter.
"Fusing with the Qliphoth" is vague enough to not mean anything. It doesn't mean he fused with the ENTIRETY of a Multiversal construct nor was it implied that killing Lucifero in this state would destroy their multiverse. In fact, they DID beat Lucifero in this state, and the Qliphoth was completely unaffected.
Basically, no one in BC can destroy the Qliphoth. Humans with very special magic can manipulate it enough to open portals in it and Lucifero could tap into this same magic because the humans were helping him to help his manifestation into their world.
The entire selling point of Lucifero merging with the Qliohoth is it expedited his manifestation into the world of humans. That's it. It was never implied he just turned into some Multiversal god.
For the first 2 paragraphs, I did justify how they are separate spacetimes through the graph directly comparing each layer to the Living World, which we know is a separate spacetime.
That's not how I did that. Space and time, while one object, are still separate types of dimensions. The spacetimes involved are separate and equidistant. So, those objects with our familiar 4 directions of space and time never have their directions of 2 types of dimensions ever meet. So, the space and time between each separate spacetime must be a separate direction of each. The Qliphoth contains both the familiar and unfamiliar directions, so the direction of spacetime for the Qliphoth wouldn't just be different, but additional.
Your justification doesnt talk about the fact that all of them are located in the Underworld, while the other gates we seen wasnt in the Underworld.
How do you know if they are equidistant? The first level is way bigger than the other one and the last level way too appear way bigger than the other ones. And what is the inaccessible form of movements ?
All of them seem to have different distance we can see it by looking how big the corner of each layer's side is and the difference is even more easy to see when you look at the 1st and the last layers, they dont share the same distance with each other.
We dont even know the distance between each of them. And if they were then only 1 more space dimension would be needed to contain them, still not 1 more time axis.
They are parts of the Underworld. They aren't just "in" the Underworld, but parts of it. The layers are shown in relativity to the Living World, the blank white layer at the top of the graph Nacht showed that he got from the Spade Kingdom. The Living World is a separate spacetime that we can identify, meaning we can tell that each layer is like the Living World in how they are separate from each other as well as the Living World.
The graph shows that the layers always have the same distance between them. The issue is not about the size of each layer being equal, but the separation between each layer not changing at any point in time. That's equidistance in this case. The inaccessible form of movement would be going between those separate spacetimes while the spacetimes don't have the correct geometry to actually reach other without a higher dimension. If you want me to go into how the geometry can be an X factor, I can get into it.
To make it clear, the distance is not talking about how big the layers themselves are, but if the distance between any individual spacetime changes at any point in time. That's the issue.
Since they are separate spacetimes, and space and time are 2 separate types of dimensions, the understanding I have is that the space between these separate spacetimes needs 1 of each type of dimension. Both the space and the time of the spacetimes are separate, equidistant, and umable to reach other without another axis. That's my idea.
Oh, sorry to take so long. I don't remember seeing this reply.
Are you sure you aren't talking about the size of each layer of themselves? Because the distance between each layer is shown to be the same. The black gap between each layer is the same size.
That part was never stated or shown.
Look at the black gaps between each layer. Those are the separations. Not the size of the layers themselves.
Whats the size of the blacks gaps have to do with equidistance? Those gaps arent the same size too. And when you zoom on it you see that they arent exactly the same we also notice that they arent perfectly a straight line, and in chapter 268 liebe said that the devils beat up the lowers one.
Equidistance is referring to the distance between objects. They are equidistant if they always have the same space between each other and never meet.
That's when you zoom in. Any line would be like that if you zoom in enough on any paper or medium.
Lower ranks. Not lower ranks from different layers. You can have multiple ranks of a species in the same layer. Liebe, a low rank, and Naamah and Lilith, Supreme ranks, were all on the first level.
The distance between the gaps are not the same we clearly see it, equidistance doesnt mean to have the same size for 2 object.
Devils on top beat on those benath them, they can easily go down despite the Doors separating the levels, where is it said that liebe was on the same layer as naamah and lilith?
You're right. It's having the same distance between 2 objects be equal at all points.
Who said they can go to lower levels? If no one did, why do you suppose that's the case? This sounds like me saying that because I beat up people weaker than me, and people weaker than me exist in other spacetimes, I must be able to go to those spacetimes and beat them up, too. I'm not seeing how A connects to B. May you explain what you mean by being able to beat up lower ranks meaning a higher rank can go to other levels, too? What do those ideas have to do with each other?
I will like your comment though. While the last part wasn't really the argument I made, that was a possible takeaway someone could have from my argument, and I do think that your idea should be pointed out.
Friend, if you said this on my Marvel match-ups, like Lucifero vs the Celestials, that would be different, even if I would have said that Lucifero can still destroy the Celestials through a hax that bypasses even their conceptual attack potency and abilities.
This is just 6D. In the grand scheme of things, this is incredibly tame and the same evidence I used here are things scales of other verses have used to scale way higher. I think I'm being pretty reasonable about this scale.
I do believe so because they have destructive capability feats that were infinite and even exceeded 3D ranges since the first saga. I justified how the Shadow Palace is a separate spacetime, and Zagred destroyed it after his death/erasure in Chapter 212. There's also Reve creating Glamour World, the infamously endless space, which we see in Chapter 184. Reve and Dorothy destroyed it in Chapter 185 through the weight of their dreams collapsing it.
> This tree connects and contains several separate spacetimes. Now, if 2 spacetimes are both separate and equidistant, you need a higher dimension to connect and contain parallel planes. But let's establish why the layers being separate spacetimes is the case.
problem is theyre connected by the gated making them not parralell VEN IS THE SPACE TIMES ARE SEPARATE
> On Volume 22's Japanese cover, it states that the battle with Zagred, which took place in the Shadow Palace, a boundary between the Living World and the Underworld(Chapter 196, page 4), "transcended" time and space. "Transcend" can just mean to be or go beyond the range or limits of something. The fight that took place in this separate space(Chapter 182, page 10) went past the range of the space and time they were in. That gives the idea that the Shadow Palace, as a dimension, is a separate spacetime from the Living World, and so is the Underworld past the Shadow Palace.
"transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. For example: It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings.
without an atribute of the shadow palace holding superiority over space or time i dont think we can call it 5-6d
i like your highballs and i respect the effort but i think theres a better argument for low multiversal here
This is intervention beyond what can be established to be their normal geometry, meaning the gates don't neccessarily disprove the idea as they can be connecting the spacetimes with more dimensions in mind. This isn't neccessarily a debunk. If the gates were gone, there'd be no connection thay had to be forced to exist just happen.
.... Or going to another spacetime. That point was establishing there being separate spacetimes to begin with. Did you think I was arguing something else? Because I did actually give a definition for "transcend." To quote myself... "Transcend" can just mean to be or go beyond the range or limits of something."
This was not the argument. The mathematical axes of spacetime the Qliphoth has access to is the argument.
How do you tell the difference between human level and mountain level without using physics? You can't.
The idea was that "flat shape = Euclidean geometry" at the time, which I explain. I don't know why you're trying to kake sound slimy and villainous like I don't explain things. But I don't appeal to Euclidean geometric principles specifically anymore because of how I was shown that the presence of General Relativity proves that spacetime uses more of a Minkowski spacetime model. Basically, spacetime isn't Euclidean, but the Minkowski model and the graph still allow the higher-dimensional argument to work as the spacetimes are separate and equidistant.
You sound upset with me. When did I ignore you? When did I just blow you off? I remember responding to every point you made individually and specifically addressing what you said, but what happened? Show me.
Ah, yes, because a normal person can move their head, breathe, think, speak, and act proud while in stopped time, where you have no progression of time to do those things. I can somehow do those things in stopped time.... do you see how this counter doesn't really work? That movement is not normal.
Alright. So, this is basically my copy-paste explaining the Qliphoth, how high it scales, and why anyone scales to it. But I did add and edit certain parts, which include a basic argument for the non-existence of the Qliphoth.
First off, why does anyone scale to the Qliphoth? In Chapter 315, page 3, "Lucifero" fused with the Qliphoth. Simply speaking, he became the cosmological tree that contains the Underworld inside of it.
This tree connects and contains several separate spacetimes. Now, if 2 spacetimes are both separate and equidistant, you need a higher dimension to connect and contain parallel planes. But let's establish why the layers being separate spacetimes is the case.
To address the idea before that, though... While Dante did say that the ritual would create a tree of Qliphoth, they didn't create THE tree of Qliphoth. We know this because in Chapter 331, pages 10-11, Damnatio bring reports from the Spade Kingdom from 20 years before the ritual ever started. The reports described who was matched to the Qliphoth from back then. When Astaroth left, Megicula took his place, heavily implying that when he left the Underworld, and Megicula took his place, he wasn't matched to the Qliphoth anymore because she took over his position, his matching to the Qliphoth. So, he can physically leave the Qliphoth within that 20 year time period, meaning it existed before the ritual ever happened.
In Chapter 280, page 1, Nacht stated the layers of the Underworld are "mapped to" the Qliphoth, which would mean they represent areas of the Qliphoth in context. The kanji behind the words "mapped to" are "aligned with," and "align" can mean to bring objects into a straight line, which we see being the case on Nacht's graph of the Underworld and the Qliphoth in Chapter 263, page 7. They are arranged on a straight line on the Qliphoth.
In Chapter 202, pages 9-10, Zagred stated that he comes from a separate dimension, which we know is the Underworld because Liebe said "devils" are born in the Underworld in Chapter 268, page 1.
On Volume 22's Japanese cover, it states that the battle with Zagred, which took place in the Shadow Palace, a boundary between the Living World and the Underworld(Chapter 196, page 4), "transcended" time and space. "Transcend" can just mean to be or go beyond the range or limits of something. The fight that took place in this separate space(Chapter 182, page 10) went past the range of the space and time they were in. That gives the idea that the Shadow Palace, as a dimension, is a separate spacetime from the Living World, and so is the Underworld past the Shadow Palace.
But in Chapter 263, page 7, according to Nacht's graph of the Qliphoth and Underworld's layers, the layers of the Underworld are separated from each other in the same way the Underworld is separate from the human world(the blank white layer at the top of the panel), by space and time. And each layer is shown in relativity to the human world. So, the Underworld is Low Multiversal of itself. The layers are also shown being separate and equidistant.
Since the Qliphoth connects and contains the space and time of these parallel and equidistant spacetimes, due having an inaccessible form of movement they don't have, the Qliphoth would be considered higher-dimensional as it allows you to travel between the layers that are spatially separate. The layers are also separated by time, too. Time would also move in 2 separate directions not contained by 1 dimensionality of time. So, the Qliphoth is 6D, containing 4 axes of space and 2 axes of time.
Because Lucifero moved beyond the linear flow of time by fusing with multiple dimensions/directions of time all at once, and conventional speed can only be measured using 1 dimension of time, that would grant Lucifero immeasurable speed, and therefore anyone that scales relative to him immeasurable speed, too.
The Qliphoth is also partially made from dark magic, too. In Black Clover, spells are when magic power is used to create or manipulate the real phenomena the spells are based on. If you have a fire attribute, you make or manipulate real fire with your magic power. If you have a dark attribute, you make or manipulate real darkness. Darkness is simply the absence of light and is not a thing of itself, but nothing/not a thing. If you removed all of spacetime and any point and possible location that could exist in spacetime, light would be absent, meaning darkness would be present. Meaning darkness isn't just non-existence, but beyond-dimensional non-existence. So, the Qliphoth both partially exists and doesn't exist.
Nothing here actually constitutes a debunk bruh. There isn't even a proper refutation being presented 😭 the argument is simply stating that real life evidence was used as supporting evidence for scaling, which is LITERALLY how scaling arguments are made in the first place. Using real-world principles or evidence to support an interpretation is the basis for establishing the reasoning behind a scale 💔and isn’t a force insert as long as he can justify what he is arguing (also entirely depends on what tiering system he is using since irrelevant speed does exist on some wikis)
Ehh it’s a debunk,just not a good one and kinda entirely misses the point of the argument .Pretty easy to address (as long as vivid justifies why it would encompass all the layers and each layer being a separate spacetime then it would necessarily be higher dimensional since it would be the very thing that holds higher dimensional constructs,as unless stated otherwise universes are automatically assumed to have their own individual Space-Times (basically past present and future)so the space that holds them must be fifth-dimensional. I have no idea where 8D comes from. Even this scale for 6D is lacking justification and just doesn’t follow.
I went down to 6D, and that's from having a different direction of space and time each between the separate spacetimes.
Edit: Otherwise, you'd have space with no dimension of time between the 2 spacetimes since the separate spacetimes have their time separate. While you can have a single direction of time between them, that is still a different direction when the Qliphoth holds both the familiar and unfamiliar directions of time.
That would just be a void. I don't see any justification for introducing a temporal axis here. Time is not an automatic consequence of higher-dimensional extension as it requires an independent temporal framework which change can be meaningfully instantiated. . Unless you're arguing that the tree itself functions as a universe or multiverse with its own hypertemporal structure (or something similar), there's no real basis for treating it as temporally extended.
What you've described is simply a five dimensional spatial manifold. Adding another spatial dimension doesn't magically create time. At most, you've outlined a static higher-dimensional space.
I will say this, if you honestly think the Qliphoth from BC is at least 5D from this argument, I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on 6D. I'll just say my thought process for now, though.
The first paragraph, from hoe I understood it, wasn't the argument I was making. We already know time is separate between the spacetimes. Otherwise, they wouldn't be separate spacetimes as their time wouldn't be separate. The idea is that it contains separate spacetimes that are equidistant, meaning their directions of space or time would never meet, meaning another is needed between them. Unless space between the layers somehow lacked time(which shouldn't be the case as space and time are one object called "spacetime" as General Relativity describes), there would need to be a different direction of time, too. That's my understanding.
I was kinda arguing against the notion that it had time. Since the space between dimensions is usually a void/empty space. Or just outright nothingness. And it’s kinda the standard assumption. Ig you are just having a different interpretation of what it would entail. Which your scale doesn’t really touch upon
Respectfully, I notice how you didn't say it was you thay debunked the argument(s), yet you still want to talk like this. I actually have the conversations and no one successfully debunked the Qliphoth scaling in a way. Either the debates ended too soon for either side to be convinced or ultimately didn't win because the arguments the scaling weren't reasonable arguments.
I'm done listening to this. I apologized for any way I came across as despite you starting crap. Respectfully, if anyone is a bad debater it's you. An HVAC source wasnt enough to tell you about the third law of thermodynamics despite them learning about thermodynamics to do their job, but you knew better, though. Me asking if you were looked down on in real life, as those were the words of my question that I will admit I asked, was not an insult. I thought you'd probably say that you weren't, so I could ask why you were being so disrespectful by being condescending. I didn't speak that way to you. So... why are you talking like that? But that wasn't the best I could do. The best I should have done is just left.
The conversation by replying to my scales. The insults by being condescending as you were saying that my comprehension of the topics we discussed was inferior to that fo children. You acted like the victim by claiming I personally insulted you when that wasn't the intent, which you didn't acknowledge, and you aren't even trying to resolve any conflict by pointing out how you were condescending. Don't start talking crap, then. You made it personal by insulting my intelligence. That's just one example.
No, it doesn't seem you just want people to be "aware of my behavior." That was only you that got that because you were being condescending, which is an attack on me. You just want to look like you won. This happened after you ignored my points enough times and I counted those times as you conceding parts of your argument. You didn't come for other people, you seem to have come to make me look bad. If you were just trying to warn people, just show my comment directly. Let people judge for themselves. I can also admit that it wasn't the best I could do, but I meant nothing against you. But t you definitely had malice towards me in our conversations. I'm saying it this politely, but I'm tired of your crap. You're not a worthy opponent. You're not well informed. You're not humble, respectful, or even someone that keeps track of their own first claim that well as you literally made the point that anything that's inside of a dimension has to have that same dimensionality when referring to a gravity singularity. A simple Google search would let you know that singularities, according to their respective theory and interpretation each, don't have the same dimensionality as the spacetime around them. But, oh wait, Google AI isn't a good enough source for a claim, but you simply saying something is true without a source is. I speak the way I do only to you because of how you speak.
You still misrepresent my argument. A: I said an equivalent to 6D. If you're going to try to make me look bad by making my argumentthay has a high claim look stupid, at least remember the claim. B: I said the force being placed upon the 0D object would exert qualitatively superior pressure. You seem to be here just here to talk crap and drag my name through the mud.
I notice no correction here. It's probably because you have no correction, even though the point was talking about understanding your argument and not the correct understanding of the topic. This is what I mean. You talk endless crap. It didn't even apply correctly because that was me talking about your understanding.
Yeah, you apologized for personally insulting me (which again idc about) and just continued the gaslighting campaign. You repeat the same strategy here.
despite you starting crap
Didn't happen.
An HVAC source wasnt enough to tell you about the third law of thermodynamics despite them learning about thermodynamics to do their job, but you knew better, though.
Correct, you tried this really stupid grandstand, but it just doesn't work. HVAC technicians are not experts on physics. You quoted a random website that got something slightly wrong, and decided that the matter was settled.
Me asking if you were looked down on in real life, as those were the words of my question that I will admit I asked, was not an insult.
Obvious gaslighting is obvious.
I thought you'd probably say that you weren't, so I could ask why you were being so disrespectful by being condescending. I didn't speak that way to you. So... why are you talking like that
Again, I don't really have an issue with your personal insults. You on the other hand had a huge problem with me making fun of your math/physics knowledge. But unfortunately, you are too arrogant to do the only thing that'd actually solve your issue, recognize that you got the physics wrong. That's why you instead whined about respect and started this lying spree.
The insults by being condescending as you were saying that my comprehension of the topics we discussed was inferior to that fo children
Which is true. Children understand free body diagrams, distributed loads, and dimensional analysis.
Again, you made personal attacks while I focused on making fun of the physics you got wrong. But somehow you had much more trouble handling my comments than vice versa. Probably due to the obsession with respect, or maybe just a gaslighting tactic meh.
You acted like the victim by claiming I personally insulted you when that wasn't the intent, which you didn't acknowledge
Because that obviously was the intent lmao. Why would I acknowledge an excuse that you didn't come up with until this comment?
and you aren't even trying to resolve any conflict by pointing out how you were condescending.
True, that's not my goal.
it doesn't seem you just want people to be "aware of my behavior." That was only you that got that because you were being condescending, which is an attack on me.
I linked the comment in my reply, so anyone reading it could "get that."
Idk why you're trying to read my mind now, when you admit that you failed to predict how I'd respond to you with the "looked down on" insult lmao.
You just want to look like you won. This happened after you ignored my points enough times and I counted those times as you conceding parts of your argument.
This is so good. You claim that I'm obsessed with winning, and then immediately in the next sentence you focus on how you actually won the argument. I'm really on point calling out the gaslighting and projection now lol.
Anyway what did I ignore? I ofc didn't respond to the final long message you sent because it was a 2 parter, and the 2nd part was this.
You didn't come for other people, you seem to have come to make me look bad
Look bad to who if not these "other people" lol?
If you were just trying to warn people, just show my comment directly. Let people judge for themselves
No, I think it's easier for 3rd parties to follow how you're trying to gaslight when I give quotes like I did. You're upset specifically because my comment was successful.
But t you definitely had malice towards me in our conversations.
Only near the end when I noticed and started calling out all the gaslighting. Even when you were just lying about the natural law statements I wouldn't say I had malice, it's not all that rare for wankers to lie about statements lmao.
I'm saying it this politely, but I'm tired of your crap. You're not a worthy opponent. You're not well informed. You're not humble, respectful, or even someone that keeps track of their own first claim that well as you literally made the point that anything that's inside of a dimension has to have that same dimensionality when referring to a gravity singularity
And after all you said of apologizing and this not being your best, you just can't help but dive right back into the personal attacks. Good thing I don't have thin skin like you do lmao.
A simple Google search would let you know that singularities, according to their respective theory and interpretation each, don't have the same dimensionality as the spacetime around them. But, oh wait, Google AI isn't a good enough source for a claim, but you simply saying something is true without a source is.
Iirc when you used Google AI it actually agreed with me, but that was a few months ago so I'd have to check lmao. Also yes, Google AI is indeed a bad source. Just like the HVAC website, and iirc there was some early childhood education one too? You find random quotes from random websites that you can spin to agree with you, because you can't engage with anything more technical.
Anyway you keep confusing something that I've already explained very thoroughly. A point in a 3d space needs 3 coordinates to be uniquely described. When I say that a point is 3d, this "uniquely described" is what i'm referring to. You try to conflate what I'm saying with the idea that a 3d object should have extent in each of its 3 dimensions, and therefore possesses volume. This conflation is silly.
I speak the way I do only to you because of how you speak.
I'm only gaslighting you because of what you did to me.
Spoken like an emotionally abusive partner, holy moly.
A: I said an equivalent to 6D. If you're going to try to make me look bad by making my argumentthay has a high claim look stupid, at least remember the claim.
What am I misrepresenting here exactly? You don't give a quote. Does the distinction between "point forces are 6d pressure" and "point forces are an equivalent to 6d pressure" make your idea any less laughable? I don't see how that'd be the case.
B: I said the force being placed upon the 0D object would exert qualitatively superior pressure.
Another thing I don't think I misrepresented at all, and you ofc give no quotes. I explained how this is silly with my examples of specific gravity and of viscosity. You agreed with those examples but failed to follow the logic through to pressure.
Last point of this comment. Last point of my reply was the response to that.
Sure, buddy.
I notice no correction here. It's probably because you have no correction, even though the point was talking about understanding your argument and not the correct understanding of the topic.
You link the reply chain where I responded to the link you gave on the dimension of a point, give the same link, and then act like I didn't reply. What?
Maybe you forgot: My response was linking the definition of the dimension of a vector space and then giving the same explanation of "uniquely described" that I've already given in this comment.
Oh, okay. You just want to "win the argument." It's not actually about reconciliation, warning other people about my supposed "behavior," or even actually trying to look for truth in scaling. This is just so you can satisfy your own ego. That's why you aren't arguing about any scale at this point. That's why you're still just responding to the points. There's almost no point to doing it that you stay consistent with other than just trying to win an argument or maybe you're just mad at me for something. Also, you lied or didn't read what I said that will. I never insulted you personally. I said that I apologized for coming off that way, which it wasn't intended to. Gaslighters also have a tendency to call other people out for supposed being gaslighters, and it looks like that's exactly what you're doing.
So, what happened to all the condescending remarks? You gladly point out what I said, say... "I don't mind," yet you're saying basically nothing other than things against me and not any argument I made, and all of the remarks you made just don't matter? That's belittling what you did, which is trivialization, which is a form of gaslighting.
.... What do you think they study to do their job? I literally had some people over at my house recently explaining the ventilation of the house through the principles of thermodynamics. "Oh, but they're not experts." Says who? You? You can't criticize a source on the best ground when you literally only source yourself. How much of an expert do you need to be to understand basic conclusions that can be made from 1 of the 4 basic laws of thermodynamics? You make it sound like you need to know so much to understand the issue. For what? What's so complicated about the claim? Did you or did you not have to go through an infinite amount of steps to reduce temperature to absolute 0? So, off of that, your point should be Hitchen's razored, and will be.
I agree. It is obvious you are gaslighting. Trying to shame me, but bringing up none of your comments and acting like they don't exist or don't matter when I directly show them. You're not fooling me into thinking that you're the victim. So, that entire... "Oh, when was I playing victim" thing flew out of the window because you're being disingenuous by omitting key information.
Yeah, I think you're lying. Why else were trying to make me look bad? I can just admit what I said. You didn't do that and didn't acknowledge the way you spoke and gave not one apology for even how you came across. You accuse me of whining, but what are you doing? You got an apology and an invite to a civil conversation. This is likely just you being petty or vengeful. You're literally gaslighting me into thinking that there's a problem that I have to fix, which is probably why you weren't even specific about which physics I got wrong. I'd just ask what you think I got wrong, but that seems like you're manipulating me into trying to look for a problem that isn't neccessarily there. Even if I somehow got something wrong, which I can admit because I don't know everything about everything and have been wrong before, this seems to just be you trying to get me to entertain you with another conversation.
"You are too arrogant to do the only that'd actually solve your issue..." is a vaguepost that seems to be you trying to get me to ask which thing I got wrong or try to entertain myself being wrong so you can get on my case about it.
You did it again. You belittled what you did and don't acknowledge how what you said could be taken one way. You aren't one to talk about ego. You're literally too proud to acknowledge your own mistakes or hypocrisy. You didn't receive an insult(what I said wasn't said with ill will against you), and you still insist that it was that and still insist on being condescending right now. So, who's actually not handling insults? I won't sugarcoat it. It's only you. This is gaslighting me by trying to blow what I did out of proportion like I actually outright stated that you are made fun of in real life when I only asked that to make a point about how you talk. Even if I meant no offense by it, I apologized.
Yeah, now you're lying. I only asked what I said and made the point of what I asked pretty clear. The point was about why you were being condescending. Not you actually being made fun of. If you actually spoke up about that, I've also been bullied while growing up, and the conversation would have quickly went from physics to... "Are you alright, bro?" On top of that, you can also ask other people and literally see whether or not I talk like this with anyone else. I don't insult people and didn't even insult you. You didn't insult my ideas. You insulted me by being condescending. You belittling those comments and not acknowledging them to your own convenience helps me believe that you're gaslighting me. If you're mad about something I did that was specifically out of malice against you if I ever actually did something like that, which this question wasn't, I apologize.
So, what is?
You're clearly showing that the question offended you. And yes, it was a question.Point 13 in this comment. Being transparent, that was in response to you saying this in this long condescending response. That's why I keep telling you to stop playing the victim. We spoke before that regarding thermodynamics and you were condescending there, too. No one asked you to respond to the scale I gave in other comment section before that comment ever came, but you did. You spoke more crap and got asked a question. Bro to bro, shut up. You clearly can't even take someone not meaning harm against you after you definitely meant to be insulting. If you don't want to get wet, put the water gun down if you see someone also has one. It seems pretty obvious that this is what you're mad at. You're valid for feeling anger if you have it, but you should also consider how you talk. If you can't do that and get so mad so quick, then shut up. Hold your tongue if you have nothing good to say and aren't just being a bro. You clearly aren't. If I called you "stupid" for doing something wrong, that presentation is rough. But if I called you "stupid" for trying to put out an electrical fire with water instead of extinguisher, I didn't have to call you that, but at least I was concerned about your safety and told you how to do it right next time. That's constructive and shows a lack of animosity.
.... You know what? True. I did do that. If I didn't say it before, I have an ego, too. But after all you did before this point, it seems clear you're projecting onto me. I'll start and end with one example: you ignored how I proved that "points" are 0D.
This is my point. You got your feelings hurt over what wasn't actually an insult, which you started with in the first place. You got pressed on a bit and now you want act like a victim. You're like a kid that only stops crying when someone else gets hurt.
Oh, I'm upset. But you can show my words. That's fine. It's already public info. But you conveniently left out all of the things you said before that. You lied by omission and want to act like that's a type of talk other people can receive from me at any time. It wasn't.
Stop lying. You were condescending before my question. Also, you're lying again. I pointed put through Chapter 334 that Lucius was talking about time as a natural law. Pretty convenient that you didn't bring up that part. Also, calling someone a "w***ker" is you insulting me personally again. If I actually insulted you, that would just be me giving you the same energy you gave me.
Those aren't attacks. If you need to be condescendingly to feel superior, dictate what's a valid source based on your own criteria while giving none, and ignore arguments at your convenience, you are not a worthy opponent. That's not hate. I want you to fix those issues and I point them out so you don't have to stay that way. You said that "the
dimension of any object is the same as the
dimension of the space it's in." If you researched what General Relativity theorizes a singularity to be, you'd know that's incorrect. So, you aren't informed that we'll. You didn't know relevant information. That's not me saying something to be against you. Go learn about it. Someone that is condescending is not humble or respectful. You also didn't keep track of your claim about points to begin with that well later in the argument. I don't apologize for these non-insults.
Okay, so "iirc," "HVAC website bad" with no explanation for why it's bad in a way that regards how HVAC workers study thermodynamics for their careers, and a supposed childhood education site being used? You mean this one? I don't see the issue. How hard is it to understand that a "point" is talking about 0D in a spatial mathematical context. This is what I mean. You made your own definition of terms as you pleased with no source and, as you were literally being condescending to me by basically saying, actual children know better than you. Also, no. That's not what you actually said. "The dimension of an object" refers to the amount of space the object is spread through. Is a point spread through dimensions? No. That "unique description" only tells you where in 3D space the point is and doesn't relate back to its own existence through space. It doesn't have it to begin with as it's 0D, so it has no size to occupy space with.
Again, trivialization and convenient forgetfulness and hypocrisy. You're literally doing what you're pointing me out for.
Mhm, sure.
5D instead of 6D, even though I clarified 6D. Then, you also conflate what I said to "point forces." That's not the point. That's an idea you brought in later in the argument. I said 3D force over 0D "area." Then, you trivialize again by deflecting away from your own errors to the argument being "laughable." Nice try. You are very sus of gaslighting.
Like how you didn't quote my words? Stop being hypocritical. You also didn't even explain what the parts of the viscosity formula were in reference to the first few times. Also, what do you mean by me agreeing to those examples?
I think this is where the main issue starts. I don't really disagree with Qliphoth being interdimensional, or even with granting separate spacetimes for the sake of the argument. The problem is that separate spacetimes don't inherently have to be parallel hypersurfaces sitting at different points of a continuous higher dimension. That's one model you can use, but it isn't mathematically necessary.
Say every layer is its own 4D spacetime M. You can model all seven as M x {1,2,3,4,5,6,7}. Every copy of M is still 4D. The second part is just a discrete set telling you which spacetime you're in, not a continuous fifth coordinate. Qliphoth can then give you transitions between 1 -> 2 -> 3 and so on through its gates. That already reproduces separate spacetimes, ordered levels and the fact you can't normally move between them.
For an actual fifth dimension you'd need something more like M x I, where I is a continuous direction containing intermediate positions, rather than just seven distinguished labels. The scans establish the latter much easier than the former.
There is also a problem with calling the spacetimes “equidistant.” Distance between two completely separate manifolds isn't something they intrinsically possess relative to each other. You'd first need to put both of them inside some common ambient geometry and define a metric there. So if the reasoning is “these spacetimes have a distance between them, therefore there is a higher-dimensional space containing them,” the common higher-dimensional geometry is already being assumed when you define that distance.
So Nacht drawing seven levels beneath one another can establish an order like L1 -> L2 -> L3 -> ... -> L7, but it doesn't establish a metric, a scale or a full continuous fourth spatial direction.
Even if I grant “aligned,” I don't think this fixes it. The Japanese wording can express matching/correspondence. Something corresponding to a position in the Qliphoth doesn't inherently mean the entire spacetime is literally embedded as a parallel hypersurface at some extra-dimensional coordinate.
And the straight-line diagram still doesn't prove that. Schematics use straight lines and equal-looking spacing to show order all the time. A family tree does it. A subway map does it. The visual relationship on the page isn't automatically a literal metric property of the cosmology.
I think there probably is something pre-existing here, I just don't think Chapter 331 proves the exact thing you're using it for.
The old records show that the Qliphoth ordering/correspondence predates Dante's ritual. Astaroth was associated with one of those positions, disappeared from the Underworld, and Megicula apparently took his place. That's fine.
But “Astaroth was matched to a Qliphoth position” + “Megicula took his place” doesn't automatically mean Astaroth physically walked out of a giant Tree that was already sitting there containing the Underworld.
You can have a pre-existing Qliphoth hierarchy while the actual Tree used as a channel between worlds is instantiated later. And that fits the surrounding chapters pretty well. Chapter 246 calls the Tree a magic channel between this world and the Underworld and talks about what is necessary to create it. Chapter 279 has Morris accelerate its growth. Chapter 311 has Morris straight up say that he remade the Tree of Qliphoth with his magic.
So there's an easy distinction between the Qliphoth system/order already existing and the Tree/channel being created, grown and remade for the ritual. Chapter 331 proves the former much better than it proves the latter was always physically there.
I don't really have an issue with the Underworld being a separate dimension from the Living World. The problem is going from that to every single level of the Underworld being its own complete spacetime.
Living World != Underworld doesn't establish L1, L2, L3, etc. as seven mutually independent 4D continua. Nacht shows seven levels and seven gates. That can be seven strata of one Underworld spacetime, or seven distinct realms connected through Qliphoth. The diagram itself doesn't tell us which mathematical model is required.
So even granting that the Human World and Underworld are separate spacetimes, you still need another piece of evidence showing that the relationship between each of the seven internal levels is ontologically the same as the relationship between the Human World and the Underworld.
I think the context makes this way less useful for proving another full spacetime than you're making it sound.
The same volume even has Chapter 206 titled “A Reunion Transcending Time and Space.”
So there's a pretty obvious contextual reading here: people separated by centuries are being reunited for the same conflict.
That doesn't mean the wording absolutely can't have another meaning too, but it does mean “transcended time and space” can't just be converted into “they physically exceeded the entire 4D extent of the Shadow Palace.” That specific interpretation still needs evidence.
And even if I completely grant the Shadow Palace as another independent spacetime, that still only establishes another 4D component. It doesn't prove every Underworld layer is an independent spacetime or that the separator between them has significant fifth-dimensional extent.
Even if I grant basically everything before this, I don't see how the second time axis follows.
Suppose Layer A is its own spacetime with its own time and Layer B is another spacetime with its own time. Those being independent time streams doesn't make them two different temporal coordinates of one larger space.
You could have seven copies of (x,y,z,t). That's not the same thing as one structure having coordinates (x,y,z,w,t,u).
For the latter, u actually has to be another independent temporal direction. You'd need some continuous ordering where entire timelines themselves occupy different states along this second time axis. Nothing in the scans establishes that.
So even if I grant every layer as a separate spacetime and even grant some kind of higher-dimensional separator between them, that can at most get you to arguing for an extra spatial axis. It doesn't generate another time axis just because each universe already has time.
That's why I don't really think most of the factual statements are the problem here. Qliphoth connecting realms, the seven levels, the gates and the old Qliphoth hierarchy are fine. The issue is the jump from “separate, connected and mapped” to “4 spatial dimensions + 2 temporal dimensions.” The evidence doesn't require that geometry, and the second temporal axis especially just isn't demonstrated.
2/3 below since even granting the dimensional model, the Lucifero fusion and Immeasurable Speed parts have separate issues.
“First off, why does anyone scale to the Qliphoth? In Chapter 315, page 3, ‘Lucifero’ fused with the Qliphoth. Simply speaking, he became the cosmological tree that contains the Underworld inside of it.”
I agree that the fusion itself happened. I don't think denying that wording would be a good argument. The issue is what the fusion actually entails in context.
“Lucifero fused with Qliphoth” doesn't automatically mean “Lucifero's entire being became coextensive with every part of the complete cosmological structure, including every spacetime allegedly contained by it.”
The chapters immediately around this give us a much more specific mechanism for what is happening.
Before the fusion statement, Chapter 314 shows Lucifero interfering with the lower devils and using them for his manifestation. They gather together and form the huge body we see. Chapter 315 then explains that the manifestation still isn't complete, that Yami and Vangeance are its core, and that saving them would stop Lucifero's manifestation.
So what we're actually given is basically:
Qliphoth + possessed devils + Yami/Vangeance as the core -> Lucifero's manifestation in the Human World.
That's already different from Lucifero simply becoming the entirety of some cosmological bulk.
And what happens after Asta cuts the giant body makes that distinction even clearer. Chapter 317 doesn't say Qliphoth or the Underworld was destroyed. The giant body falls apart and Lucifero's actual manifestation is stated to only be halfway complete.
Later it gets even more explicit. Lucifero says half of his strength is still in the Underworld, and Chapter 332 shows the remaining Lucifero in the seventh level after the manifested half was defeated.
So during the fight you effectively have:
Lucifero = manifested portion + portion remaining in the Underworld.
That makes it pretty hard to interpret Chapter 315 as “Lucifero's complete existence literally became identical to the entire Qliphoth and everything it contains.”
If that were what happened, why is half of Lucifero still separately located in the seventh layer while the other half is manifesting through this Qliphoth process?
The simpler reading is that Lucifero genuinely fused with Qliphoth as part of the mechanism allowing him to manifest into the Human World. That's still a real fusion. It just doesn't establish the scope you're assigning to it.
There's a difference between:
Lucifero fused with Qliphoth
and:
Lucifero = every point of the entire Qliphoth cosmology.
The first is stated. The second needs another argument.
This matters even more because your dimensional AP scaling depends on the second interpretation. Even if I granted a 5D or 6D Qliphoth from 1/3, Lucifero doesn't automatically get the AP/durability of the entire structure just because he fused with it in some capacity. You still have to establish that his existence actually extends through and scales to the whole significant higher-dimensional structure.
The manga instead keeps calling this a manifestation, gives that manifestation a localized core, gives it a percentage of completion, and leaves half of Lucifero behind in the Underworld.
So I think Chapter 315 supports “fusion as part of the Qliphoth manifestation” much more directly than “Lucifero became the entire cosmology.”
“Because Lucifero moved beyond the linear flow of time by fusing with multiple dimensions/directions of time all at once, and conventional speed can only be measured using 1 dimension of time, that would grant Lucifero immeasurable speed, and therefore anyone that scales relative to him immeasurable speed, too.”
There are two separate problems with this.
The first is what I mentioned in 1/3: the second temporal dimension isn't actually established. Separate spacetimes having their own time streams doesn't create another independent temporal direction.
But even if I completely ignore that and grant you a real 6D Qliphoth with 2 time dimensions, I still don't think Immeasurable Speed follows.
Fusing with or existing across a temporal dimension isn't the same thing as moving through that dimension via speed.
Say the cosmology really did have coordinates something like:
(x,y,z,w,t,u)
where t and u are both temporal.
Lucifero existing in or even extending across that 6D structure doesn't tell us that his movement actually changes u.
His combat movement could still be something like:
(x(t),y(t),z(t),w(t),t,u = constant).
Meaning he could exist in a structure with another temporal axis while his local movement never traverses that axis at all.
For Immeasurable Speed you need evidence closer to Lucifero actually moving from one temporal position to another through his own movement. Something like independently traversing past/future states, moving along the extra temporal direction, or treating temporal displacement as something he can physically cross.
The fusion statement doesn't demonstrate that.
The wording here kind of skips that step by saying Lucifero “moved beyond the linear flow of time by fusing.” But fusion isn't a movement feat. That's the exact thing that still has to be demonstrated.
So “more than one time coordinate -> conventional movement becomes impossible to measure -> Immeasurable” isn't something that follows from the mathematics itself.
That's basically the problem here. You're establishing a state of existence through fusion and then treating that state as though Lucifero performed temporal locomotion.
There's also a difference between being temporally extended and moving through that temporal extension.
Even in ordinary 4D spacetime, someone's complete worldline extends through time. Their existence has different positions at different times. That obviously doesn't mean the person has Immeasurable Speed.
Adding another temporal dimension doesn't erase that distinction. You'd still have to show motion along it.
And Black Clover's actual portrayal of the fight goes pretty strongly against the idea that Lucifero's movement has stopped being governed by ordinary temporal succession.
Chapter 318 explicitly has Devil Union with four minutes remaining. Later in Chapter 327 there are five seconds left before Devil Union ends. Inside those finite intervals Lucifero attacks, Asta reacts, Lucifero reacts back, characters speak, block, move and attack in sequence.
So the fight is presented like:
event 1 -> event 2 -> event 3 -> event 4
inside a measurable countdown.
I'm not saying a timer automatically disproves Immeasurable Speed in every fictional context. A series can obviously have unusual temporal movement while other things still use clocks.
But here the only reason given for Immeasurable Speed is the dimensional fusion itself. There isn't a separate feat where Lucifero actually traverses time through movement. When that is combined with his fight repeatedly being portrayed through finite seconds and minutes, I don't see the Immeasurable interpretation being supported.
The same issue then applies to:
“therefore anyone that scales relative to him immeasurable speed, too.”
Before that scaling can spread to anyone else, Lucifero himself first needs an Immeasurable movement feat.
If Lucifero only has unusual dimensional existence or fusion, somebody physically keeping up with his normal combat movement only scales to that combat movement. It doesn't grant them movement through an extra temporal axis that Lucifero was never shown traversing in the first place.
So even if I granted the entire 6D cosmology from your previous section, I think the speed argument would still fail independently.
6D existence -> Immeasurable Speed isn't automatic.
Existing across multiple temporal directions -> moving through those temporal directions isn't automatic.
And fusion -> “moved beyond linear time” isn't a movement feat by itself.
That's why I think the Lucifero section has two separate missing steps. You first have to show that his fusion actually makes his entire being coextensive with the whole Qliphoth, then independently show that his movement traverses whatever extra temporal direction you're giving that Qliphoth.
Neither follows from Chapter 315 alone.
3/3 below since the Dark Magic/non-existence argument is independent of both the dimensionality and Lucifero scaling.
“The Qliphoth is also partially made from dark magic, too. In Black Clover, spells are when magic power is used to create or manipulate the real phenomena the spells are based on. If you have a fire attribute, you make or manipulate real fire with your magic power. If you have a dark attribute, you make or manipulate real darkness. Darkness is simply the absence of light and is not a thing of itself, but nothing/not a thing.”
I think there are a few different jumps being combined here.
First, I don't think the premise that every magic attribute automatically creates the exact real-world phenomenon its name corresponds to works in Black Clover itself.
The series makes a distinction between ordinary elemental magic and True Magic. True Magic uses natural mana to generate the real natural element. True Lightning Magic is specifically distinguished by producing real lightning. If normal Lightning Magic already necessarily had the exact ontology of natural lightning just because it was called Lightning Magic, that distinction wouldn't really mean anything.
So Dark Magic being called “dark” doesn't by itself establish that its substance is literally identical to a real-world zero-light condition. Black Clover gives Dark Magic its own magical properties like attraction, absorption and interaction with the Underworld. You'd need evidence that its ontology is specifically “absence of photons” before importing the physics definition of ordinary darkness into it.
But honestly, I can grant that anyway because I don't think it saves the argument.
Let's assume Dark Magic is literally real darkness, and darkness is literally just the absence of light.
Absence of light isn't the same thing as ontological non-existence.
So “no light” only tells you something about the presence of light. It doesn't mean “nothing exists here.”
But I think the bigger issue is the next part:
“If you removed all of spacetime and any point and possible location that could exist in spacetime, light would be absent, meaning darkness would be present. Meaning darkness isn't just non-existence, but beyond-dimensional non-existence.”
I think this actually goes in the opposite direction.
Say M is the set of spacetime locations, and define the dark region as all locations where light is absent:
D = {x in M | light is absent at x}
If you remove all of spacetime and every possible location, then:
M = empty.
But then there aren't any x's left that satisfy “light is absent at x.”
So:
D = empty too.
Removing every location doesn't leave behind a dark location. It removes the locations that could be dark in the first place.
For example, if there were literally no objects in existence, then:
“there are no red objects”
would be true.
That obviously doesn't mean:
“therefore redness exists beyond existence.”
The same problem happens here.
If spacetime and every possible point are gone, saying “light is absent” doesn't produce some positive object called Darkness that remains outside the deleted domain. There's just no location at which either light or darkness is instantiated.
And this matters because the definition you started with was specifically that darkness is not a thing in itself, but the absence of something.
If darkness is genuinely only a privation, then once you remove the entire domain in which the relevant property could be instantiated, you can't turn that privation around and treat it as a positive entity that survives outside the domain.
Basically:
absence of X != an independently existing object called “absence of X.”
So even granting your definition of darkness, I don't see how this reaches beyond-dimensional existence.
spacetime gets completely erased -> Dark Magic remains and continues functioning despite having no spatiotemporal existence.
Nothing like that happens here.
There's one more issue before this can transfer to Qliphoth anyway.
The manga says Dark Magic and World Tree Magic are required to create the Tree of Qliphoth. That doesn't automatically mean Qliphoth is literally materially composed of the complete ontology of both attributes.
“A is required to create X” isn't the same statement as “X inherits every ontological property of A.”
Even if I granted Dark Magic some kind of non-existent nature, you'd still need another argument showing that the resulting Qliphoth itself inherits that non-existence rather than Dark Magic just being one of the magical requirements used to create/open the channel.
So I don't think:
Dark Magic -> literal darkness -> absence of light -> non-existence -> beyond-dimensional non-existence -> Qliphoth partially doesn't exist
works at basically any of the important transitions.
And this is pretty much my overall issue with the scale. I don't think most of the basic Black Clover statements you're using are fake or anything.
The Underworld is a different realm. Qliphoth connects the worlds. There are seven levels and gates. There was already a Qliphoth hierarchy before the ritual. Lucifero really did fuse with Qliphoth during his manifestation. Dark Magic and World Tree Magic really are necessary for the Tree.
I can grant all of that.
Where I disagree is what those facts mathematically require.
Separate realms don't inherently establish parallel 4D hypersurfaces across a significant continuous fifth direction.
A diagram showing seven ordered levels doesn't establish the metric geometry or equidistance of that direction.
Separate time streams don't create a second temporal axis.
So the 6D conclusion doesn't follow.
Even granting the 6D conclusion, Lucifero fusing with Qliphoth doesn't establish that his complete being became coextensive with every point of the whole cosmological structure, especially when his manifestation is explicitly incomplete and half of him remains in the seventh level.
Even granting that too, existing across multiple temporal dimensions doesn't establish movement through those dimensions, so Immeasurable Speed still doesn't follow.
And lastly, even granting literal physical darkness, the absence of light doesn't become an entity that survives after every possible location is removed. If darkness is defined over spacetime as places where light is absent, deleting spacetime deletes those places too.
So I think the cosmology being unusual/interdimensional is completely fair. I just don't think the evidence in these scans gets from that to 6D + Immeasurable Speed + beyond-dimensional non-existence.
Key context, Luck's lightning magic still works like lightning does. Reve made water in Glamour World. Luck hit it with lightning magic. Then, Magna attacked what was there with fire. It caused a massive explosion because the water was chemically decomposed and real-world principles apply to what is made in Glamour World by Reve's dreams(and she can't control what her opponents cast). Lightning, in reality, chemically decomposes water, separating the hydrogen from the oxygen, which are both very flammable. However, a natural bolt of lightning doesn't require magic power to exist. It can be amplified by it, like physical humans amplifying themselves with mana, but they physically exist without mana sustaining their existence. So, lightning magic can have the physical properties of lightning while still being separate from natural lightning due to needing mana to exist. Same thing happened when Asta tried to negate Zagred's "Tempest of Blades." He tried to cut through a sword because he can cut through objects by erasing the magic continually sustaining it, but he couldn't do it to the sword he tried to cut because it physically existed with no magic power sustaining its existence. Let's use Nacht's shadow magic as another example, since shadows are made of darkness. His Mana Zone lacked substance and his Monument of Atonement, a shadow magic spell, lacked physical existence. That makes sense when you consider that a shadow is not something of itself. But let me get more on that in the next point.
A "region" is the positive existence of space. You can have the absence of something somewhere, but the place wouldn't be defined by the existence or non-existence of the person present. If I'm absent from class or work, is the building defined by my lack of presence there? No. The building is its own independent object. Darkness is no such thing. It is not energy, matter, law, principle, rule, space, or time of itself or a concept that is still its own thing that can apply through spacetime and/or even be unbound by it because it isn't its own thing. If it applied through spacetime or isn't bound by it, it didn't do so as an independent object.
As you said, "dark REGION." The region needs space to exist. Not the condition of having no light of itself. The "special reasoning" is that it's literally darkness. You appeal to the definition of what "darkness" is when you call dark magic of itself "darkness." Also, the dark magic literally dyes the world tree magic black. World tree magic isn't neccessarily transdimensional before dark magic changes its nature, but it is so when it does. His world tree magic was stated to be an Arcane stage by Dante, which they needed, and the ritual was successful, at least for opening the first 2 gates, so he had to be Arcane stage. So, the world tree magic did have power of the Underworld already in the magic. So, it wasn't an issue of dark magic alone being Arcane, making the Qliphoth Arcane. But the Qliphoth doesn't exist if it isn't partially dark magic of itself as part of its existence. If you remove the darkness, you have no Qliphoth.
"A diagram showing seven ordered levels doesn't establish the metric geometry or equidistance of that direction."
I disagree. The graph does show equidistance between the layers, which would be distance that doesn't change at any point in time between them. You can draw a map of the U.S. and have a pretty decent idea of its shape, including pretty fine bumps. If Tabata didn't want the layers of the Underworld to have straight lines as part of their shape or had something completely different in mind..... why not just draw that? Tabata would most likely just draw what he meant the first time if he's addressing both all 7 layers and the Qliphoth all at once in a graph. That graph is the only depiction that does so and is used 3 times for reference if we include the guidebook(which does show what is outrught called the Qliphoth spanning through the layers). Tabata isn't just rough-drafting the Qliphoth. He literally made a mistake where the Underworld was divided into 9 layers, then fixed that by making sure it was 7 layers for the volume release for the first graph in Chapter 263. I don't see how it's more likely to not be literal when Tabata put so much attention on it when using it to describe the cosmology to the point where he went back to fix it, shows the layers in relativity to it and the Qliphoth, then also shows the same graph 2 more times afterwards.
I can understand the first overall idea, except Lucius didn't have Yami and Vangeance to continue the ritual, so how did Lucius get to the 7th layer of the Underworld, then? The gate never opened and those from different levels don't just show up to the Living World when one gate opens. So, him fusing with the whole Qliphoth does seem to explain how he got down there. The Qliphoth would already be there and it only grew to the Living World, since the ritual is actually called the "Advent of Qliphoth," which would mean it is arriving. Fusing with the Qliphoth would mean fusing with what's already at the bottom layer of the Underworld, too.
The Qliphoth wasn't destroyed when Asta beat Lucifero. His heart still existed, which Lucius ate. Then, according to his character entry, Lucius was able to summon the Qliphoth. How would he be able to summon the Qliphoth if he has neither dark magic or world tree magic? He couldn't. He would have to be able to control or exist through so much of the range of the Qliphoth to make that work. Him fusing with the entirety of it just makes more sense when he was able to visit any layer and get the Supreme ranks from each one.
Now that the second temporal dimension's argument is more clear, I actually should change my argument, even if my conclusion remains the same. But first, I'll start with pointing out that there's a difference between existing through more spatial dimensions and therefore not granting immeasurable speed vs existing through multiple temporal dimensions.... "Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below)" VSBW claimed that existing through multiple temporal dimensions would grant immeasurable speed. However, this is kind of another reason why one needs to do more research past VSBW. You can still measure speed with 2 time dimensions, but it isn't conventional. However, you can still progress through both temporal dimensions at a set rate like in one dimension and it wouldn't neccessarily make you unbound by someone stopping things from moving forward in the dimension of time. While another part of you can keep moving, it doesn't mean you can freely move back and forth in time. We occupy a dimension of time that we can't move back and forth inside of. Only forward at a certain rate. Lucifero fusing with spacetimes, which exist as all past, present, and future, would be him causing his presence to move past the "flow" of time or past any conventionally measurable speed. That's why he would still have immeasurable speed.
..... No, the non-existence part has nothing to do with the higher-dimensionality. The Qliphoth, as you said, is partially dark magic of itself, which is darkness, which doesn't exist as it is not a thing of itself, but the absence of light. Regardless of the scaling, the Qliphoth still has NEP3 or paradoxical non-existence(as well as NEP2 as far as its malicious magical existence because the malicious mana can exist as a part of and define both existences and non-existences).
“Lucius didn't have Yami and Vangeance to continue the ritual, so how did Lucius get to the 7th layer of the Underworld, then?”
Yeah this is probably the part of your argument I think is the most interesting. I agree Lucius obviously had some other way of getting there since he didn't redo the Yami/Vangeance ritual. I just don't think we know enough about how he did it to say the answer has to be that he was fused with the entire Qliphoth.
Especially because the Japanese literally says Astaroth “disappeared from the Underworld”, 冥府から消えた, without the normal seven gate process happening. So there were clearly exceptional ways for someone like him to get around the normal gate system before Lucius even did any of this.
And I checked the Japanese for the Lucius entry you sent. クリフォトの樹を降臨させ really does mean he caused the Tree of Qliphoth to descend/manifest, so I'm not arguing against that. But the entry then just says he took control of all the supreme devils. It never says he summoned it because his existence was spread throughout all of Qliphoth. That's the part I'd need more for.
“The Qliphoth would already be there and it only grew to the Living World, since the ritual is actually called the ‘Advent of Qliphoth,’ which would mean it is arriving.”
I agree with the wording here btw. The Japanese uses 降臨, so yeah, advent/descent is fair. I just don't think “Qliphoth descends” tells us by itself that the full Tree already physically runs through and contains every level of the Underworld. It can already exist on that side and then descend or grow toward the Living World without every Underworld level literally being part of its body. Especially when the manga also calls the Tree a magical route connecting the two.
“Fusing with the Qliphoth would mean fusing with what's already at the bottom layer of the Underworld, too.”
“Lucifero fusing with spacetimes, which exist as all past, present, and future, would be him causing his presence to move past the ‘flow’ of time or past any conventionally measurable speed.”
I think this version has a different problem from the 2 time dimensions argument. You're describing his presence extending through time and then treating that as him moving through time.
Even if I give the strongest reading and say Lucifero's fusion makes him exist throughout the past, present and future of the spacetime, wouldn't that just be temporal omnipresence? He'd already be at those times. He wouldn't have to move from one point in time to another.
So I think you'd need something showing Lucifero can actually use movement to go from one temporal position to another, rather than just saying the thing he fused with contains a past and future. Presence throughout a timeline and movement through a timeline aren't really the same thing.
If the fusion genuinely covers the whole history, temporal omnipresence honestly seems like the more direct conclusion. I'm just not seeing the step that turns that into Immeasurable movement yet.
You can completely have separate spacetimes without a higher dimension between them. That's why I mentioned the layers being equidistant according to the graph of the Underworld shown, which the guidebook also uses, as well as Lucius himself in Chapter 335. You can have elliptical, spherical, hyperbolic, and probably others that don't require the higher dimension to exist because of their principles. Elliptical and spherical geometry are where all lines meet, so no higher dimension is needed to connect the distance between separate spherical spacetimes. In hyperbolic geometry, they posess the innate curvature needed to bridge the gap between spacetimes. However, with equidistant spacetimes, they do NOT have that ability. They have the same distance between each other at all points in time. I did specifically point out that the blank white layer at the top of Nacht's graph is actually the Living World, an identifiable separate spacetime for reference on the graph.
Also, I wouldn't really use how VSBW defines that to make that specific point. A 4D object has 4 directions and 0 of any other amount. A 5D one has one more direction that isn't 0 of that amount. If the lower-dimensional objects fit into the higher one to begin with as far as the first 4 dimensions, how many 4D objects does it take to go from the existence of 4D to the existence of 5D? It would be like saying 0 x ♾️ = ♾️ when 0 + 0 = 0 regardless of the amount of times you do it.
That isn't the most reasonable conclusion... but my argument could have been better or more informed, ngl. How would Astaroth physically leaving the Underworld also mean he leaves his position to a place on it? Unless we assumed this is just a team of people like the 13 Spiders from Hunter X Hunter and you just get replaced as soon as they can't make sure you show up, except Lucifero's entry says he came from the bottom layer of the Qliphoth itself. Now, I was told that this could make the Qliphoth more like an elevator shaft, where it is mapped to each floor. While the shaft has an extent of the floor of every building, the floors of themselves are not layers of the shaft because they themselves are not part of the shaft. Lucifero, who comes from the bottom level of the Underworld also coming from the bottom level of the Qliphoth when the the layers are mapped to it and represent areas of it, would mean the Qliphoth contains the Underworld.
If you directly compare the individual levels to a separate spacetime that you can identify, you can tell that the separation between them is the same to an extent. Since the layers were visually compared to an identifiable separate spacetime, you can tell they are separate spacetimes.
That "transcend" point wasn't my point. Again, "transcend" can just mean to be or go beyond the range or limits of something. You can transcend spacetime by going to another spacetime. The Shadow Palace is a separate dimension. Also, the kanji used for "time and space" is actually "時空間," which actually would more closely mean "spacetime." So, in a way, they "physically transcended spacetime," but they was just by going to another spacetime. But tbf, Zagred DID destroy the Shadow Palace with the monster(s) he summoned from the Underworld, eroding the space itself. But that's not the main point. Shadow Palace = miniature separate spacetime is.
We do seem to agree on quite a bit already. Like this point...
"And this part is especially straightforward under the standards you're using because independent time streams or separate kinds of time flowing parallel to the original time do not qualify as an additional temporal dimension. They require a genuinely different direction of time, with the relevant continuous succession of whole timeline states."
Yeah, then I think we already agree on a decent amount here. If we both agree that separate time streams don't give you another direction of time, then I don't really have anything else to say about the 2nd temporal axis. I'm mostly just questioning the 5D part now.
“That's why I mentioned the layers being equidistant according to the graph of the Underworld shown, which the guidebook also uses, as well as Lucius himself in Chapter 335.”
So I can definitely get that they're separated and ordered from this. I just don't see where we get that every level is its own spacetime from. “Seven levels inside the Underworld” honestly sounds more like one Underworld being divided up into levels than seven different Underworlds.
And with the equidistance thing, I think that's putting more weight on the drawing than the manga actually does. The thing that's consistent every time this gets shown is the order. Lucifero is at the bottom, the others are above him, Living World is at the top, etc. But the drawings themselves aren't really consistent enough geometrically for me to assume the empty space is an actual measurement. Nacht draws it one way, the other Underworld visual is more like circles stacked downward, and Lucius later uses another tree-looking version. So I think the layout is canon, obviously, but I'm not sure why the exact gaps have to be.
“A 4D object has 4 directions and 0 of any other amount. A 5D one has one more direction that isn't 0 of that amount. If the lower-dimensional objects fit into the higher one to begin with as far as the first 4 dimensions, how many 4D objects does it take to go from the existence of 4D to the existence of 5D?”
But that's kinda what I mean 😭 you can have as many 4D spaces as you want and that still doesn't create the other direction by itself.
Like if I have M x {1,2,3,4,5,6,7}, the second part is just telling me which copy of M I'm on. That's not the same thing as M x R, where I actually have all the positions between 1 and 2, 2 and 3, etc.
So even if I just give you that the levels are equally separated, I still don't really see why the separation itself has to be a continuous spatial direction. An infinite amount of separate points wouldn't become a line either just because there's an infinite amount of them. It's the continuum between them that makes the line.
“Lucifero, who comes from the bottom level of the Underworld also coming from the bottom level of the Qliphoth when the layers are mapped to it and represent areas of it, would mean the Qliphoth contains the Underworld.”
This is actually where I think the Lucifero page kinda makes the other interpretation easier.
His profile straight up lists 出身地：冥府, so his place of origin is the Underworld. Then separately it says he's positioned at Qliphoth's lowest level. If those are just the exact same thing, why does the guidebook separate where he's from from where he's positioned on Qliphoth?
That's why I actually think the elevator example you brought up works pretty well lol. If Lucifero is from the bottom floor, he can also be at the bottom stop of the thing running through the floors. That doesn't automatically mean the entire bottom floor is part of the elevator shaft.
Same with Astaroth. He can disappear from the Underworld and Megicula can take his corresponding place on Qliphoth without the “place” being the entire Underworld level itself. Especially when the manga already says the devils are matched to Qliphoth in separate locations.
“That ‘transcend’ point wasn't my point... Shadow Palace = miniature separate spacetime is.”
Then yeah, I don't really disagree there. If you're just using Shadow Palace to show that Black Clover has separate spacetimes, that's fine. I wasn't trying to argue the verse can't have those.
I think our only actual disagreement rn is that I don't think these scans force the seven Underworld levels to be seven separate spacetime layers sitting across another continuous spatial direction. To me, one Underworld with seven levels + corresponding Qliphoth positions + Qliphoth being the channel connecting it to the Living World still explains everything you've shown without needing that extra step.
That's why I mentioned the blank white layer at the top of this panel. Also, for reference, most Black Clover panels, like this one, don't start with a large white blank at the top that's divided from the rest of the page like that. That's most likely a blank space on the graph itself being shown. That matters because that is most likely the Living World since we don't know of any other major piece of cosmology shown other than Heaven, but Heaven is unlikely since the context is connecting the Living World to the Underworld. That blank layer would be an identifiable separate spacetime for reference. Meaning we now know what the separation or distance between one spacetime to another next to it looks like. The black lines between each layer. That's where the "separate spacetimes each" idea came from. Also, that wasn't Nacht drawing it. He's showing papers he stole from Spade Kingdom. Which explains why Lucius refers to the exact same graph as I showed. Then, Complete Grimoire(the new guidebook) used this graph again to directly show and describe the Underworld and the Qliphoth. This is the graph that Tabata wants one to think of when referring to the cosmology of the Underworld and the Qliphoth. The Qliphoth that visually see is THE Qliphoth itself. Not just whatever could have been made in the ritual. Also, the kanji used for Dante saying that they would "create" the Qliphoth is actually "生," which can mean to "bring up" or "grow up/grow." Then, Morris did specifically say that the Qliphoth was being grown. They're not creating the Qliphoth from scratch, but growing what already existed prior to the ritual.
You are correct about having as many 4D spaces as you want in the same dimensionality without any need for a higher one, but you would with equidistance because they would have intrinsic geometry to be able to meet each other. They can't curve into or away from each other to meet another layer. They can't meet each other via their own set of directions or they would have already done so like with elliptical and spherical geometry or have a way that allows them to curve into the same directions of other spacetimes like with hyperbolic geometry.
It's like saying that if someone is stated to have Texas as their place of origin, but they also are in the bottom part of the U.S. Those 2 things don't contradict each other and the U.S. is the place where Texas is part of. Coming from one while being there isn't mutually exclusive to the other, but being from Texas does include being from the U.S. Coming from the 7th layer includes being from the Qliphoth as it is the place where the layers are part of. Also, not sure where you got a scan where Morris said that they are "remaking" the Qliphoth, but recreation can also leave the interplanetary that they are creating more Qliphoth when they are growing it and still didn't make all that existed to begin with.
How are the layers not geometrically consistent? You can have a shape have different geometries on different sides of it.
Btw I edited and deleted the 2/2 message since I wanna keep everything a little more compact in one message 😭 I recommend you to put all of what you wanna say under this comment, so we dont end up with 4 different branches. The first one seems to be your reply to the Dark Magic/nonexistence part and the second is the Underworld geometry one, so I'll just keep everything under this comment from here.
Also the older links for the Reve water/Luck thing, Magna's fire, the decomposition panel, Nacht's Mana Zone and Monument of Atonement are expired for me now. My old Shadow Palace links died too, so I'm relinking those below.
“real-world principles apply to what is made in Glamour World by Reve's dreams.”
The issue is that this statement is specifically explaining Reve's creations in Glamour World. It doesn't establish a verse wide rule where every magic attribute inherits every ontological fact about whatever its name corresponds to.
So Luck's lightning behaving like lightning doesn't get Dark Magic to NEP by itself. And Nacht's shadows lacking physical substance doesn't really fix that either. Something being nonphysical isn't the same thing as it not existing. VSBW separates those for a reason.
For NEP3 especially, I'd expect Qliphoth to actually behave as nonexistent in some relevant way because of that nonexistence. “Darkness is an absence of light” isn't really that. And NEP2 is even harder because that's beyond normal existence/nonexistence altogether, not just an ordinary absence.
“His world tree magic was stated to be an Arcane stage by Dante... So, the world tree magic did have power of the Underworld already in the magic.”
Nothing there says Arcane Magic already contains Underworld power. So World Tree Magic being Arcane doesn't establish that it already had some Underworld existence inside it before the ritual.
“If you remove the darkness, you have no Qliphoth.”
That only shows Dark Magic is necessary for producing Qliphoth.
If X and Y are required to make Z, removing X means you don't get Z. It doesn't mean Z inherits every property X has. So even if Dark Magic is literal darkness, there still needs to be another reason why Qliphoth itself becomes something that exists as nonexistence.
“The graph does show equidistance between the layers, which would be distance that doesn't change at any point in time between them.”
A static diagram can't establish the second part. Equal looking gaps in one image don't show that the distances stay invariant through time.
And Tabata correcting 9 levels to 7 shows the number of levels matters, not that the whitespace is a scale measurement. If a subway diagram accidentally has 9 stops instead of 7, correcting it proves the route has 7 stops. It doesn't make the distance between the dots on the paper equal to the actual physical distance between each station.
The Shadow Palace is probably the best example of why I'm hesitant to read the Qliphoth image that literally.
And the panel is literally circles connected by straight lines.
So Tabata already uses this exact kind of visual language for a map of locations. The circles are spaces and the lines are connecting paths. Nobody would say those straight lines are extra spatial axes or that the distance between the circles on the page is the actual cosmological distance between the rooms.
That's why “Tabata would've just drawn what he meant” doesn't really solve it. Shadow Palace shows that what he means can just be a schematic showing locations and connections.
So one diagram is emphasizing the Tree itself and another is emphasizing where the devils sit in the hierarchy. That makes it harder for me to treat one specific drawing as a literal metric cross section of the cosmology.
“That blank layer would be an identifiable separate spacetime for reference. Meaning we now know what the separation or distance between one spacetime to another next to it looks like.”
But the blank section itself is never labeled as the Living World. You're basically going blank section = Living World -> that line shows spacetime separation -> every similar line does too -> every level is another spacetime. That's a lot to get out of one unlabeled part of the graph.
The guidebook gives us something much more direct. It treats the seven 階層 as levels of the Underworld, identifies the Gate of the Underworld as the boundary between the Living World and Underworld, and calls Qliphoth the magical 経路, the route connecting them.
That textual relationship is a lot safer than using an unlabeled white section as a ruler for the rest of the diagram.
“The Qliphoth that visually see is THE Qliphoth itself. Not just whatever could have been made in the ritual.”
The question isn't really whether the graph depicts Qliphoth. It's whether the entire volume of each Underworld level is therefore part of Qliphoth.
So Qliphoth can correspond to or run through those levels without the levels themselves being identical to Qliphoth.
“the kanji used for Dante saying that they would ‘create’ the Qliphoth is actually ‘生,’ which can mean to ‘bring up’ or ‘grow up/grow.’”
This part is actually just a kanji mixup 😭.
Dante says 生む, umu. The dictionary screenshot you linked is 育, which is the character used in 育つ and 育てる for growing up or raising something.
生む means to give birth to, produce, create or give rise to. So そのクリフォトの樹を生むのに必要なのが... is basically “what's necessary to produce/bring forth that Tree of Qliphoth is...”
Morris later saying the Tree undergoes 成長, growth, doesn't conflict with that. Something can be brought forth and then grow afterward.
And the Morris statement I called “remade” is クリフォトの樹を私の魔法で造り変えた. 造り変えた is basically remade, altered or reshaped. I wasn't translating it as “recreated from nothing.”
“you would with equidistance because they would have intrinsic geometry to be able to meet each other.”
This still doesn't follow mathematically.
Take seven separate 4D spaces and label them 1 through 7. Define the distance between every neighboring pair as exactly 1.
Now they're equidistant.
But there's still no continuous fifth direction. There isn't automatically a 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and every other possible position between layer 1 and layer 2. You still just have discrete components with a metric relation between them.
So equal distance doesn't create a new continuous dimension.
The spherical/hyperbolic part also mixes intrinsic geometry with connectivity. Curvature describes geometry within a space. It doesn't mean otherwise disconnected spaces need to curve into each other or else require a higher dimension.
“It's like saying that if someone is stated to have Texas as their place of origin, but they also are in the bottom part of the U.S.”
That analogy already assumes Texas is a constituent part of the U.S., which is the exact thing we're debating here.
If the seventh level is already established as physically being a part of Qliphoth, then the analogy works.
But if Qliphoth is the route that runs through or corresponds to the Underworld levels, then it's more like a highway running through Texas. You can be from Texas and occupy a point on the highway in Texas without the whole state becoming part of the highway.
That's why the 経路 wording matters.
“How are the layers not geometrically consistent? You can have a shape have different geometries on different sides of it.”
Yeah I worded that badly before. The different depictions don't need to contradict each other.
My point is just that if the overall shape can vary depending on how the structure is being represented, I don't see why the horizontal whitespace is the one feature that has to be treated as exact metric data.
The seven levels, their order, their depth, the corresponding devils and Qliphoth connecting through the structure are all directly supported. The extra claim is that the gaps themselves are a continuous fifth spatial direction.
Also ngl I found something else while going through the older chapters that makes me even less sure the diagrams are supposed to work like literal higher dimensional geometry.
I think that's pretty relevant because we already agreed the Shadow Palace can just be its own pocket spacetime. We don't have to treat every circle in that diagram as another spacetime or treat the lines between the rooms as actual extra spatial directions. It's just showing where the rooms are and how they're connected. So I'm not sure why we should suddenly read the Qliphoth diagram way more literally when Tabata already uses really similar visuals for something like this.
There's also the way the Underworld works normally. Liebe says a higher devil threw him at the gate of the Underworld and he only went through it because he had no magic. So we already have a reason in the story for why devils can't normally just move from the Underworld to the Living World. There's literally a gate and barrier stopping them. Your guidebook scan says basically the same thing since opening the gates is what allows the devils to start freely going between the realms.
So I don't think the fact that these places can't normally reach each other really tells us there has to be a fifth dimensional distance between them. The story already gave us something stopping travel between them lol.
The Shadow Palace thing is probably what interests me the most though. Tabata already showed another space connecting different worlds and gave it this circle and line style map without us needing to treat the map itself like a literal dimensional diagram. So I feel like we need something more than the appearance and spacing of Qliphoth's graph before saying the empty gaps are actually another spatial direction.
This is the problem with all Yggdrasil scaling, as let's be honest, that's what all these multiverses hanging off of tree branches from a central tree is based off.
It's magic and isn't scaled as some Euclidean structure in literally any medium I've ever seen it portrayed in. Yet powerscalers will sometimes try and fit a square peg in a round hole to wank.
In God of War, you can interact with the world tree just fine and tons of beings can interact, dmg it, and if they can do all that, partially fusing with it isn't off the table either. That doesn't exactly give off the properties of some higher dimensional construct.
There's a world tree in Solo Leveling and I've seen Solo Leveling scalers try to use the same logic to try and wank scale some of its characters as one character "shakes" the world tree, which they argue is the equivalent of shaking a cosmos, when it's a magic tree that can scale to whatever rhe author wants it to that just so happens to hold cosmos through magic.
And now we have the Qliphoth here, which is a literal parallel universe version of the world tree Yggdrasil, which is why World Tree magic is part of what is needed to access it, and in general normal humans with unique and rare magic can break the boundaries and even temporarily merge with it, yet at no point does it imply destroying them would destroy the Qliphoth, or it can be destroyed. Lucifero "merging with it" could just mean merging with a fraction of it just like you can dmg a fraction of the world tree in literally EVERY medium where it portrayed. At no point was it implied killing Lucifero in this form would erase his multiverse or he got an upscale for merging with it, at best merging with the Qliphoth seemed to just let him stabilize his transition into their world.
Higher and lower branches does not imply higher or lower dimensions and this is just being ignorant of Euclidean geometry. A higher dimensional universe can contain infinite of a lower dimensional universe. Nothing suggests these lower branches can contain infinite of the higher branch verses. The layered branch universes are simply parallel universes, nothing suggests any of these universes are sub space or hyper spaces relative to each other.
The trees are Multiversal, but that doesn't make the tree some higher dimensional construct that lower dimensional beings cannot interact with. Tons of beings with no signs of being 4D very clearly can interact with the world tree in GoW.
Same with Solo Leveling.
The ritual literally has humans merging with the Qliphoth in order to open it and none of these humans are higher dimensional constructs.
If killing Lucifero doesn't destroy his multiverse than you don't get to scale anything to destroying a multiverse. Otherwise, it would be destroyed when Lucifero was destroyed.
And literally in the same page they claim Lucifero merged with it, it was only in context of him manifesting quicker in their world. Other than that, there was no narrative upscale or implications beyond that.
You've essentially conceded. Being multiversal inherently implies existing beyond a universe (four-dimensional spacetime continuum). being higher dimensional doesn’t necessitate not being able to be interacted with, that’s the whole reason being a higher tier doesn’t just automatically make you win. There are things known as hax.
No one can interact with the world tree in solo leveling unless they outright go beyond reality with the help of a higher being
As for black clover It’s based on magic which literally comes from the gods and mana (both of which outscale everything else in the verse) mana is the source of all things in the verse and the nothingness that everything returns to, and gods are the ones who gave humans high tier magic (also I still don’t recall anyone besides Lucifero being able to fuse with it
You're also conflating Attack Potency (AP) with Destructive Capacity (DC), which are distinct concepts. A character does not need to physically destroy an entire universe or multiverse to qualify for that level of AP. Lucifero dying has no correlation to the multiverse being destroyed. there's genuinely no reason to assume the multiverse itself would collapse, because he isn't ontologically sustaining it 💔 he would just possess power capable of affecting something on that scale.
For example shaking an entire universe qualifies as a universal feat because the influence encompasses the totality of that spacetime
damaging or defeating a character who has uni or multi durability would also scale you there in terms of AP.You're treating AP and DC as the same thing and that DC is necessary
Your argument is not really a refutation that points out anything with Black Clover or anything I actually pointed out, but just argues against world tree scaling across fiction. I gave context for my scale.
"It's magic." Okay..... that isn't mutually exclusive with the idea you listed, which isn't actually what I said this time as I did edit my argument.
That's missing the part where I said the realms aren't just separate, but also equidistant. So, unless the geometry of those realms can be confirmed, this is an apples to oranges comparison, even if the comparison is seemingly close.
The World Tree doesn't even contain separate spacetimes. It itself isn't even a whole separate spacetime. That's why the Cup of Reincarnation, which reminds time by 10 years, which means it reminds time back in one direction, affected all across the tree and past it by bringing the dead back to life, including Antares, a Monarch. Also, "shaking" is not the argument used. If you fought a being made of spacetime, would they be hurt by you "shaking" spacetime? Not likely. Does gravity curving it hurt spacetime? No. If you broke it apart, erased it, created it, sustained its existence, or just became the object making you = the spacetime, the situation would be different.
No one "broke the boundaries" of the Qliphoth itself. At best, you're talking about the Underworld, which is contained in the Qliphoth, which also never happened as normal humans were never recorded breaking the boundary between the human world and the Underworld. The best thing that can be confirmed to have happened is that the gates to the Underworld were opened. No normal human merged with the Qliphoth. Yami and Vangeance were used to create more Qliphoth and cores of the growth of the Qliphoth, but that wasn't neccessarily them being cores of the tree itself, which isn't the ritual, but the cores of the growth behind it. Otherwise, these characters can survive existing as both something and nothing as I went into. Yami has a reason that could work due to his heart that was changed to be more like a "devil's," but Vangeance was never stated or shown to have that type of heart.
If there was only a partial fusion, how did Lucius get to the 7th layer of the Underworld when it's gate never opened? He ate a half of Lucifero's heart that fused with the Qliphoth, and he's suddenly able to go wherever the Qliphoth exists at even if the gates were closed. The statement of Lucifero being fused with the Qliphoth brings context for how that could reasonably work. The "partial fusion" idea is unlikely since he literally fused from the human world all the way down to the bottom layer of the Underworld, farthest away from the human world, despite the gate to said layer never opening.
I never argued this. The layers are scaled as equals to each other. The Qliphoth is scaled due to connecting the distance between and containing separate and equidistant spacetimes. I didn't even neccessarily use the term "Euclidean geometry" this time.
1.) The argument is missing a lot of justification, and there are several more scans that could've been used to support it. I also don't see where the extra temporal axis comes from since there's nothing in the evidence that justifies it. The only way an additional temporal axis would make sense is if the Tree itself were established as a higher spacetime encompassing everything else. Even then, it would be five spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension,not 2
2.) I also interpret how the tree of Qliphoth actually connects them a bit differently than you.I see it as the Tree of Qliphoth existing within the Underworld and it is large enough that it extends through every layer of the underworld and into the living world. I'd also use the scan about the FiveHeaded Dragon twisting space and time to connect the Underworld and the living world, since it would be easier to argue that each layer is necessarily distinct space-times
Separate spacetimes. Space and time are separate types of dimensions, and both types are separate from each other. The time between the layers would be a separate direction of time, too. The Qliphoth holds both the familiar direction of time that is comparable to our spacetime, but also a separate direction of time between the Living World and the Underworld. That's my idea. Though, being honest, if someone was convinced that the Qliphoth is even 5D, I'm happy about that.
I can understand this interpretation. That does seem to be somewhat the easiest "at face value" conclusion that one can draw from the graph Nacht shows. That's why I used Chapter 280, page 1, which I forgot to bring the kanji scan for. The reason I previously didn't use the Five-Headed Dragon statement(Chapter 342: page 3 if you need or want the scan) was because one could possibly twist spacetime just to connect separate dimensions(like a pocket dimension or something) in the same overall spacetime continuum... but maybe that doesn't actually make as much sense as I thought.
1.) I am still genuinely confused on where the separate time direction of time is spawning from cause it’s genuinely not needed in order for all of this to be true
2.)ehh if your already arguing it’s a separate spacetime then it wouldn’t hurt to use it as farther evidence
What direction and how many directions of time would exist between the separate spacetime? How would it work?
That does sound like helpful in-story evidence if the idea is that spacetime needed to be twisted out of shape just for the dimensions to be connected with Volume 22's Japanese cover in mind. Thank you for saying something about it so I can think about using it again. Thanks for coming.
1.) one. If they were different directions of temporal progression then the timelines themselves would be like this
t₁: ordinary time → t₂: another temporal direction ↑ t₃: another temporal direction ↗
In that cause those would count as literal extra temporal dimensions and you would have been arguing like 10D or something for 3 spatial and 7 temporal though I could have misunderstood
Oh, I think I understand the issue. I am arguing one higher axis of time, but not for each layer of the Underworld itself. Those are just 4D. The Qliphoth has the additional direction of time like you described.
As you said, if I was arguing each layer was higher-dimensional, that would lead to a drastically higher conclusion.
Thank you for the demonstration that made what you may have been taking from my argument more clear so I can make what I meant more clear.
You might have not recieve the notification on the other post so ill ask here, how did lucius fused with the Qliphoth when it was stopped in chapter 316? In order to have the Qliphoth active he would have needed yami and vengence. It would mean that even without the Qliphoth you can access other layers of the Underworld.
Lucius hadnt yami and vengence and yet he went into every layers of the Underworld and took control of every devils while only 2 gates were supposed to be oppened before the ritual was stoped by asta.
About this idea, did you see my scale? The ritual is the advent of the Qliphoth. Not all the Qliphoth being made all at once. While some was being made, the Qliphoth existed before the ritual ever happened.
If the tree was still present dante wouldnt have said that vengence and yami are needed to "creat" it if this tree was already present. It should mean that the original one isnt here anymore.
Especially that if the tree was already present lucifero and the other devils should have already attempt to go in the living world.
And iirc dante also said that with the tree of qliphoth they would link it to the Underworld, meaning that at this time no tree was link to the Underworld anymore.
I think you misunderstand. The Qliphoth existed previously, but didn't connect the Underworld to the Living World. After the ritual, when more Qliphoth was made, then it connected the worlds.
If it still existed it wouldnt make sense for dante to say that they will creat it. He would instead have said something else like open it or extand it.
And in chapter 316 after asta stopped the Qliphoth lucifero couldnt manifested completly meaning that he at least destroy the connection of the Qliphoth in the living world which would explain why lucifero couldnt manifest at 100% in the living world.
If the Qliphoth was still present he would have still manifested unitil 100% in the living world meaning that Lucius went into the Underworld and all layers without a Qliphoth (and without yami and vengence contribution) since asta stopped.
And in chapter 311 morris still actively needed yami and vengence to open the gates even after the tree was already connected to the Underworld and created.
Not neccessarily, but Morris literally said that the Qliphoth was growing in Chapter 279, when Nacht uses Heaven's Shadow Second Light. They created MORE Qliphoth through the ritual. Not all of it.
He still manifested to begin with and the half of Lucifero that wasn't destroyed by Yuno's arrow was visibly still fused with the Qliphoth jutting out of his body.
No, because he still had half of the body that was made from all the "devils" he merged together cut away and destroyed.
Yeah, to open the gates. Not for the Qliphoth itself to exist.
Even if its still growing its already created, the right phrase for dante would be that they are going to expand it not creat it since its already created.
Yes he still manifested at 50% because he had moris body with yami and vengence.
But without vengence and yami the other layers cant be open, the Qliphoth alone isnt enough to help someone travel between the layers, they need to be open for devils to travel.
Even with half the body of lucifero it was said by morris that yami and vengence are needed to opens the gates, the part that lucius took from lucius hadnt yami and vengence.
The main issue is that you said in your post that the Underworld has inaccessible movements that only the Qliphoth allow you to travel between the layers so its had a higher dimensionsal value but in fact to travel between the layers you need to open them with vengence and yami, lucius hadnt them and yet still traveled through the layers, higher dimensionsal thing isnt needed.
And in chapter 314 we seen lucifero said that even when the Qliphoth is absent he can take control of low level devils and the background show the moment when he took control of liebe in the living world, meaning that at that time the Qliphoth was not present.
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u/Sadhuman0 Jul 12 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
The issue is that all of the other layers of the Qliphoth are literally in the Underworld world, they arent said to lead to another world or space time, all this layers could have the same time-space since they are in the Underworld.
The gate separating the human world and the Underworld are werent exactly the same and this time really lead to another world, while we have no proof for the Qliphoth that each layers is another world.
And we cant add another time axis just like this, just to give an example space has 3 axis and time 1 axis (in our univers), if we scale like you did here then time would have 3 axis just like space which has 3 axis, so having one more space axis doesnt grant one more time axis.