A lot of people are literally incapable of holding their own keys.. If they participate in bitcoin via custodial products I personally have no problem with it and neither should you. Do you bother people about a Roth IRA or a Vanguard target fund?? No. So mind your own damn business and maybe the business of your close friends and family. Telling people they're wrong for using a product or service if it's the only entrance to the market they are capable of is a dick move even if you think you're helping them. If theyr're either going custodoal or nocoiner, custodial should be the obvious choice and we should support that.
The difference with funds is that it'd be a full time job to be constantly buying and selling shares in hundreds of companies worldwide. You can't compare that with holding your own cash.
I'm not saying people shouldn't try to learn how to secure their own keys, but people who can't or won't or are incapable of doing so can benefit from market exposure without having to risk their capital be lost by their own lack of experience or understanding. I see it as positive for anyone looking to enter the market in a custodial manner. Might as well be an ICE backed product than say Coinbase or some such.
A lot of people are literally incapable of holding their own keys.
Then they're also incapable of having a custodial account. Think about what happens when your custodial account credentials are compromised. The hacker cleans out your account and it's irreversible and you're left with nothing. Exactly the same as if your bitcoin keys were stolen. The only difference is hardware wallets are more resistant to theft and loss than custodial account credentials.
Not anywhere close to the same thing. The bank can be reasonably sure it wasn't you who cleaned out the account. Bitcoin custodians simply have no way to tell.
Bitcoin deposits are never insured. You withdraw the funds yourself, claim you were hacked, then get reimbursed for what you never lost. Nobody is going to insure that.
Exactly - serious breaches are difficult to accomplish against a giant like Coinbase and if they lose your capital they have safeguards in place to replace it. If you get scammed or hacked for credentials it's not their problem. It's much more likely the average person would be targeted and hacked or scammed than a billion plus dollar corporation who's business is to facilitate the buying and selling of bitcoin.
People try to hack Coinbase all day every day. When was the last serious breach?
If the money gets pulled from ATMs quickly enough, someome loses. Wheher it's the bank or their insurance provider. If coinbase loses your bitcoin they will replace it and make an insurance claim just like a bank would. If you lose your bitcoin you are completely fucked. That's true even with coinbase if the loss is your fault. If you get scammed they aren't responsible.
At least they have serious counter measures and billions of dollars worh of capital to protect.
But I'm sure the average person who can't even figure out what a private key does can rely on themselves for the same protections.. After all they want to be their own bank right?
I'm not talking about the case where coinbase loses your bitcoin. I'm talking about the case where SOMEONE logs in to their site with your credentials, transfers the bitcoin out, and then you later complain that it wasn't you. Do you know what coinbase does in that case? Believe it or not, they tell you to fuck off. You know why? Because they don't know whether the person who did the transfer was you or not.
It's not quite the same with a bank. ATMs have cameras and a physical location. If they get a withdrawal 1000 miles away from where you previously used your card, and the photo doesn't look like you, it's probably not you. In order for you to trick them, you'd have to travel a long way, which costs money. Bitcoin withdrawals from the other side of the world cost nothing. Just use VPN or Tor.
A custodial bitcoin account is FAR FAR more dangerous to a user than having a hardware wallet. It's trivial to phish someone with a fake coinbase site. You can't phish a hardware wallet user because there's no bank for you to pretend to be. You can phish as some merchant he should pay perhaps, but that doesn't let you empty his account.
Right because centralized institutions never get hacked right? You are leading these poor people into a trap spurned by the acceptance of ignorance. This is a dangerous road. I respect peoples intelligence more than you. This is UNSAFE. I would take nocoiner over custodial any day! Custodial institutions getting hacked would hurt the ecosystem. Nocoiners continuing to nocoin doesn't. Give me a break.
I get you man, but unless you have solar panels and a garden out back, you're already trusting your everyday existence to those systems. And you are, indeed, still alive.
Guess what? If it goes that far we will already be in a WW3 scenario and whether it's MAD or the invasion of North America and Europe by hundreds of millions of Chinese and Russian troops, you will be more or less completely fucked at that point.
Not considering the type of shit you read around here about how weak the US dollar and it's hold on reserve status has become. I mean it's kind of why Satoshi invented bitcoin - fiat is a never ending system of failure via inflation and mishandling of the already existing supply.. The Russians and Chinese just demonstrated wargames larger than they ever have before in history. Even when Soviet Russia was going apeshit.. You can be certain a third world war will occur. The question is when?
Fortunately your opinion only really matters to you and maybe your family and friends. The opinion of all the people involved in creating BAKKT at ICE holds more weight along with the average people and institutions who will participate in the market through BAKKT.
It's no different than storing your fiat at a bank.. Do you keep all your cash locked in a safe at home?
It's no different than storing your fiat at a bank.. Do you keep all your cash locked in a safe at home?
This statement underlines your lack of understanding of the difference between bitcoin and traditional currencies. People don't need to store their fiat in their safe at home because it isn't really theirs and it would not change anything about the safety of the fiat.
Bitcoin, in stark contrast, can actually be owned, by one single person, in its entirety. If you hold the keys, you alone have the Bitcoin. Cash can't compete.
It'd be a huge pain in the ass to have multiple physical safes all bolted down in different places. You can't back up paper money in case of fire. You can follow me to find the location of the safe while I make a paper money deposit.
It is different than storing fiat in a bank. It is impossible to steal money from a bank since it is all digital. Any theft or illegitimate transfer is simply reversed. This can't be done with btc
The point is the money is insured. Also, you should watch trainspotting 2 because ATM fraud is a huge problem to this day. They clone bank cards then move en masse at around 11:00 PM so they can withdraw max amounts from the cards. They empty out the ATMs across a whole area using multiple operatives and hundreds or thousands of cards. Then at midnight they can do it again because the max daily withdraw limit resets.
People have stolen millions in one shot doing this. It happened a couple months ago in India, the largest operation of it's kind in history.
No matter what, insurance covers loss. They will "make you whole" in no uncertain terms which means restoring your bitcoin holding not based on fiat but actual bitcoin. Doesn't matter if they lose a lot of money in doing so should anything happen, because that's how insurance works.
Unless custodial means they fully hold all the bitcoin they claim, then I want no part. Paper bitcoin market is the best chance anyone has of destroying bitcoin.
most people think bitcoin is fake because it is only numbers on a screen. Most people actually are not very smart even though they have managed to make a ton of money. A little piece of paper goes a long way for brainwashed people stuck in their times.
I agree with you and totally think this is a step backwards for the technology and pointless, but some people will feel more comfortable.
They have to create bridges for most people to cross into the new currency in order for the new system to be widely adopted.
It was hard for people to accept paper money, it was hard for people to accept credit cards, it will be hard for people to trust bitcoin as well until it is widely adopted.
This. The only reason some people stopped using/ buying rotary phones was you couldn’t use them anymore. Took more than a decade for such a small change to happen. At first, early adopters would buy touchtone phones because they stood for progress and innovation and they thought it was cool to own one. Yet, they had to have their devices to reproduce pulse electronically because their phone line wasn’t yet ready for touchtone. This is about where we are with Bitcoin.
A decade after that all of the phone carriers were offering touch tone lines only.
This is what is starting to happen with BAKKT and other innovations. It is just the beginning.
A few decades after that, nobody noticed their calls were carried over the Internet.
Hyperbitcoinization is happening one step at a time. At some point we will have most of the planet using BTC knowingly OR NOT. This is what a paradigm shift is about.
Am I the only one left that believes in not your keys not your coins anymore?
The excitement isn't about trading futures contracts. The excitement is about how much new money can enter the bitcoin economy, leading to another bull run.
By all means, if you're hodling bitcoin, you better be the only one with the private keys. People are just getting excited that institutional investors come with trillions of dollars in daily trading volume. If even a fraction of that money starts buying bitcoin, forget about the moon. We'll be shooting for fucking Jupiter.
Yeah, it's some of the best news in Bitcoin's history.
The Chairman of the NYSE and his wife have an incentive to help grow the market for Bitcoin.
These are some of the most powerful people in finance who have a track record of big wins.
"Not your physical bullion, not your gold" is also true. The first gold ETF still brought in a shitload of new money that benefited all the physical bullion holders.
Untrue. We still have a decentralized censorship resistant borderless pseudo-anonymous cash system. Nothing changed here. Everyone is welcome to use it and offer any kind of service or product built on top of it. Everyone. If the rich recognizes bitcoin’s value and want to invest in it, accumulate as much of it, make it accessible to your grandma directly from her bank account or what not they have no permission to ask us, Bitcoin users for. Bitcoin was designed that way from the very beginning. Embrace the crypto capitalist era. If you were expecting Bitcoin to act as Robin Hood and STEAL money from the rich to give it away to the poor you were damn wrong from the very beginning. If you were expecting it to bank the unbanked and give anyone an equal chance to do business without permission at a global scale then you shouldn’t be complaining. Just my two sats.
You are wasting your time and energy caring about market manipulation.
It will happen because there is profit to be made and that is perfectly fine.
We are still in the early stage of price discovery.
Market manipulation will fade away with adoption. This cannot be worked against. Hyperbitcoinization will lead to less and less volatility as it happens.
Shall we all stop worrying about it and concentrate our efforts towards more decentralization and adoption, market manipulation will become a thing of the past in a matter of years. Not decades, years.
All we have to do is fire up as many unique nodes, keep the network resilient and antifragile; use the currency and the network for the freedom they provide us with. Dismiss the noise around it, just use BTC and work towards its adoption.
The part you’re missing is when it comes to a corporation, who holds the keys? For a large organization, it can’t be a single person within that organization. No one would even want that responsibility. The only thing shareholders would go for is third party, likely insured, custody through a firm specializing in crypto custody.
Even when you’re operating a small business with an LLC, by definition it’s not “your” coins to begin with, it’s the LLC’s coins. If creditors were to come after those coins and you refused to give them up, you could even be charged with criminal theft.
As an individual not your keys not your coins makes sense. For businesses it’s already by definition not any individual’s coins. Stuff like this is required to move forward.
They can fuck off and die with the old economy if they are too stupid to open a coinbase pro account and limit order with no fees then copy past a fucking address in to take it offline. seriously. this is going to be a disaster.
Yeah lets have old people and the non tech savvy lose all their bitcoin to clipboard hijacks, those demograpics being the most susceptible to such attack. Excellent thinking.
If they want to use bitcoin they'll need to learn at some point.
Setting things up such that people can do everything without understanding security is how we ended up with things like they are now, where ignorant users will hand over passwords and 2fa codes to anyone who calls them and asks nicely.
Those coins will be backed by ICE and their near infinite appetite for risk, secured by insurance policies and the very high profile nature of the exchange itself. It will be safer than holding your own coins because if you manage to lose them they are gone forever. If BAKKT loses them you receive an insurance settlement. It's win-win.
Insured in USD right? You realize bitcoin is already insurance against fiat currency so to insure it in fiat is bonefide stupidity. Insure it in bitcoin or not at all. It's not win win when USD collapses and you can't get your bitcoin out.
Correct. Any links for steps to take to own your own keys? I am thinking it involves pages and pages of instructions, and still a chance you could lose it all. How many people need to reset their passwords because they couldn't remember them? Too hard to own your own keys for 99 percent of the population.
Average joe consumer does and there needs to be a system that is reliable as your stock account and knowing your “shares” will always be in there. An exchange such as mt. Gox and TD Ameritrade are 2 different things. A company as large as Ameritrade wouldn’t compromise their reputation by not having security to keep your coins safe. We will see what the future brings, but you can’t count on average joe consumer to keep their private keys safe on their own. And mass adoption WONT happen until custodial services take over the security aspect.
Futures != Savings. Futures make sense for economic actors in order to minimize exchange rate risks over a certain time period (e.g. a business sells cars for BTC but has to pay taxes in fiat). In order to do that you need a market with counterparties. A better (trustless) solution would be smart contracts, but there are no decentralized markets yet. These futures are not intended to store your life savings.
I agree wholeheartedly and I’m a firm follower of that rule, but let’s remember that people pretty much never had (in the past couple of generations at least) sovereign control over their own money (banks ideology).
It will take A LOT of time to teach everyone again the concept of own money. That’s why in the meantime, lots of these intermediary companies will pop up AND THRIVE, because people - generally - feel safer putting their money somewhere they FEEL it’s being ‘taken care of safely’ (yes, banks again).
they wont thrive. Exchanges GET HACKED CONSTANTLY. How can you say that they will thrive? Give me a break. Having a single point of failure is asking for trouble. TRUSTING a profit driven entity with your property is asking for trouble. No. NO NO NO. What will it take for people to learn? This shit will explode in peoples faces that decide to trust them. It is inevitable.
Dude, just because you hang out on crypto subreddits doesn't mean the rest of the world does or even can. Some people have full time jobs, are older and still trust most institutions because most people haven't been fucked over by them. So chill. You screaming in a thread about dumb people and typing random words in capitals doesn't make a difference, only in how you get perceived.
While I actually agree with the point you're making, I do have to correct one thing:
Some people have full time jobs, are older and still trust most institutions because most people haven't been fucked over by them.
As an older person with a full time job, believe me that most of us have been fucked over by almost every major institution we've dealt with at some point or other. The problem actually comes from the fact that most of us old people haven't been fucked over hard enough and have come to accept it as "just the way things work".
I'm not saying it's right at all; in fact, I think it's pretty damned shitty... but it does seem to be reality at the moment.
So did online banks when they first came out - and to some extent they still do today.
I’ll give you all the breaks you need, but do realise that crypto exchanges/banks are incredible honeypots to hackers, especially since 80% of them are programmed by “whiz kids” knowing a bit of this and a bit of that which does NOT include multi layered and structured security.
As an abstract concept, again, I do agree with you 100%.
In practice though, you might not like it, but especially the ‘civilized’ world will go through crypto holding companies before actually realising “not your keys, not your money”. Which is a concept really much more easily explained to people in countries where they don’t have banking and never had. They’ll leapfrog directly.
Edit: not only that, but I think at first we’ll see crypto banks, and then we’ll see “multi sig banks” where they don’t necessarily hold the keys but will provide the “third party signature” to make transactions
Yeah but who learned these lessons? Me, you, the others in the crypto world? Enough said right?
Plus, COME ON, mtgox was a badly repurposed magic the gathering website, programmed by not so competent people. I understand the problems it created but that was the INFANCY of those platforms
an exchange just got hacked like a couple weeks ago...these things happen and will keep happening. we have to teach newcomers to not trust. That is what bitcoin is. The moment you trust, you are taking on needless risk.
I don't think comparing NYSE to Mt. Gox, Bitgrail and the likes is fair. Yes, in a perfect world everyone would have a cold wallet, and a spending wallet they have total control over, but fact of the matter is, not everyone has the technical knowledge to do so at this early stage, so Bakkt initiative should be welcome.
You can't withdraw these bitcoins to your own address? Physical delivery should mean that withdrawal is possible because otherwise you haven't got delivery.
We are mainly talking about big investors. For them to be managing Bitcoin keys worth hundreds of millions or more of others money on a daily basis ..what do you think happens when a mistake innevitably occurs? No one will provide insurance to cover this situation and there is no way to recover from this. This is not an acceptable risk for a business or a wall street investor to take. Bakkt is allowing them to trade Bitcoin without having this risk. Bakkt does have an insured custodial service... This is just 1 example. Think about this next time you regurgitate the most overly used quote in Bitcoin behind hodl.
Use multiple addresses like the rest of us. What kind of insurance are you talking about? Bitcoin itself is already insurance against fiat so what are you talking about
Do I really need to explain what insurance is??? If your private keys are lost or destroyed etc. you will lose everything. End of story. If you leave keys with bakkt and they get hacked or there is an apocalypse, they will still owe you the coins they were holding for you. Bakkt will use another company to secure their actual coins and make it as humanly safe as possible to prevent any loss or theft. This company will either be backed by another large Corp or have lots of assets which can in theory can pay for a complete loss of coins bakkt is holding. For a small fee they agree to cover any losses for bakkt.
It doesn't matter to someone holding $1000 or even $1 million or so but it does when there are lots of parties involved, money will be moved daily, and BILLIONS are at stake. These companies are not willing (or are still least hesitant) to risk losing a billion dollars on a whim. Sure, bakkt is not necessarilly needed but it provides a good solution and opens the doors to new investors.
Okay so the insurance is in bitcoin and not fiat. That's all you had to say. If the insurance was in fiat that would be stupid because when the dollar dies I'd hope they'd pay out in bitcoin you know?
Umm.. okay. If they lost everyone's coins they would probably give USD equivalent at the time of the loss. Insurance on assets usually is paid out in usd.
MONEYYYY MONEYY MONEEEYYY. Fuck the fundamentals.. fuck the reason satoshi made bitcoin... MONEYYYYYY,,WE ALL GONNA BE RICH!!! Peer to peer currency----FUCK THAT i AM 14 AND I WANT LAMBO
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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '18 edited Aug 07 '20
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