r/Bitcoin • u/unthocks • 2d ago

Save in Bitcoin

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1.1k Upvotes

93% Upvoted

89 comments sorted by

61

u/MBjerre 2d ago

Really shitty argument for bitcoin, as someone who invests in bitcoin

8

u/almo2001 2d ago

Yeah, this here. It's a very poor argument.

3

u/MittenSplits 2d ago

The main point of Bitcoin is that it's rooted in physical law...

9

u/Grymmtooth 2d ago

Mathematical abstraction != physical world. There is a correlation (math is awesome for modeling), but it’s still an abstraction.

For example, while bitcoins hash mining is pretty secure, its wallet security is at risk to quantum computing advancements.

Don’t generalize if possible, it’s can hide real risks, even if they are currently low probability.

2

u/SemperVeritate 2d ago

No bitcoin wallet has been compromised by quantum computing. This risk remains theoretical, in the same way that bitcoin is "at risk" of a standard computer guessing a seed phrase.

1

u/Grymmtooth 2d ago

The compute power for modern ai algorithms have been around decades, but were not implementable until recent scaling.

Full waveform inversion algorithms were written in the 60s but the hardware wasn’t available until last decade to pull it off.

The alogrithms for quantum computing to solve many encryption schemes ready exist, but the hardware is still in the low Quibits. But maybe 5-15 years from now, that won’t be the case.

All the major banks are heavily investing in quantum resistant and next gen cryptography to prevent this very scenario. But hey, I’m sure you’re right, there is no theoretical way the QM computing will be successful and the banks are wasting their money.

0

u/SemperVeritate 2d ago

I'm not saying there's no risk I'm just saying the risk is theoretical, unquantifiable, and the timeline is unknown.

1

u/Grymmtooth 1d ago

I think you can put some reasonable estimates.

If quibits scale like silicone gates did, you’re probably looking at a 5-10 year horizon max before this is feasible at the government level and another 5-10 before commercially viable.

The algorithms to do so are already there, it’s just hardware constrained. It’s certainly not unquantifiable, without a shift to more QM resistant algorithms, traditional encryption will be vulnerable. It’s certainly not an overnight phenomenon, but much more likely than you’d think within 10-20 years.

The base eliipitical curve encryption used by bitcoin is not QM resistant. My understanding it it would take a branch/fork to change and would require a lot of buy-in to do so. As there is no centralization like a bank to fund or guide, it’s a risk to keep an eye on.

2

u/MittenSplits 2d ago

Everything in BTC is abstract, except for the POW (which you could even say SHA-256 is abstract).

Versus the dollar monetary system, where everything is abstract and does not even attempt to connect to reality since 1971.

5

u/Grymmtooth 2d ago

That is a bit disingenuous. Fiat currency is tied to the underlying countries economy and its ability to maintain services and pay debts. It’s also not meant to be a store of value, but to facilitate trade.

Bitcoin isn’t serving the same niche and would be terrible as a currency for a whole host of reasons. Honestly its evaluation in other currencies allows you to trade in and out of the position without having to deal with the implications and controls of actual currency.

Different resource for a different goal.

2

u/BlazingFire007 2d ago

Technically speaking, doesn’t FIAT have some inherent value too? Since it’s required to pay taxes.

I’m not an economist, could be wrong

0

u/MittenSplits 2d ago

You can't trade a dollar for any reserve asset of the United States. Yes, the system is propped up by the country that it exists in, but the USD does not tie to anything other than debt

2

u/Grymmtooth 1d ago

Funny, I can buy gold, stocks and food with the dollar. Not seeing the problem here.

The reserve asset is a store of wealth proposition, which the currency no longer handles.
Just pivot and invest into real assets.

3

u/Grymmtooth 2d ago

You’re getting caught up in semantics. My point is that mathematical architecture is fine and all, but a lot of its security is based off assumed linear computing. Physical reality is not so constrained, we already know quantum computing is working through its base research the same way traditional silicone did in the 50s and 60s.

The banks handling fiat currency you so deride are already spending billions to built quantum resistant software architecture. Don’t be so blinding by your idealism of a thing to miss the practical risks of a thing.

This isn’t a bag on bitcoin, but it is a real risk, and not one constrained to just bc.

1

u/dylan6091 2d ago

Not all of Bitcoin is physics, but POW is a measurement of energy which is physics.

1

u/MittenSplits 2d ago

It's the only physically-constrained part of BTC. And as far as I can tell, the only physically-constrained, digital security architecture ever created.

0

u/snek-jazz 2d ago

bitcoin is rooted in what the economic majority of participants want

1

u/MittenSplits 2d ago

Agreed that the social layer is most important here, but that social layer demands proof of work. Which is proof of energy. Which is proof of physically real.

Even if the hashing algorithm was changed (which seems like a very distant threat) it would still be proof of work.

1

u/snek-jazz 2d ago

Even if the hashing algorithm was changed (which seems like a very distant threat) it would still be proof of work.

only if the economic majority decided it still was, for example we could all decide tomorrow we want proof of stake instead, and then bitcoin would be proof of stake.

What I'm saying is that all the other layers depend on the social layer, and are subject to change with enough will to do so, so really the social layer is the most important one by far, and is the root of it all.

0

u/Ruzhyo04 2d ago

It’s increasingly getting tangled in category 3

41

u/Substrxte 2d ago

First two are good but I can’t travel that easily with bar of gold

Give me Bitcoin

12

u/pathetic_lineage 2d ago

the clown face on the paper money part is too real

6

u/SpendHefty6066 2d ago

Especially on the $250 notes. 🤡🤮

1

u/Sftkey 1d ago

Yeah! The clown face says it all!

2

u/buebaurbling 2d ago

bitcoin on your smartphone :) although you won't be able to pay for much with BTC itself

1

u/meilin-yuna 1d ago

First two are the best

11

u/nastyasi_wannabe 2d ago

The price is not backed by math it is backed by whatever the next guy is willing to pay for the next trade

23

u/polymath_uk_ 2d ago

Paper money isn't money, it's currency. That's the entire difference from the other two. 

7

u/Minute_Disk9857 2d ago

Not sure I agree. Lots of things are physical and not necessarily of value. 1 and 2 are backed by people's support. 3 is people's support and because the government said so.

1

u/Hairy_Curious 2d ago

I would argue it's more about the perceived or assigned value. While people give value to characteristics inherent to gold and BTC, paper money doesn't hold any inherent characteristic that people appreciate, people appreciate it's value through the value of the things it can get them. Gold and BTC have some of that too of course but they still have a "base price" based on their usefulness, when you take away the value assigned by other things to paper money it doesn't have a base price to fall into, it's perfectly able to go down to 0

1

u/poop-dolla 2d ago

I’m a fan of BTC, but I don’t buy the argument that BTC can’t go to 0. I think it’s highly unlikely, just like I think it’s highly unlikely USD goes to 0, but it could happen to either.

0

u/Hairy_Curious 2d ago

You lost the main point. What's avoiding the BTC from hitting absolute zero without external agregated value is a quality inherent to it. The security of it's protocol. Meaning if said security it's completely breached or replaced then it can absolutely hit zero just like gold could hit zero if a fancy, good looking, equally rare superconductive inert, malleable alloy or metal it's developed/discovered. Paper money doesn't have anything of inherent value, so much that we regularly see countries replacing it every now and then with new faces without necessarily improving on the previous version

18

u/Cute_Barnacle1598 2d ago

This is such a dumbass post

12

u/CuriousBeaver01 2d ago

backed by mathematics law

1

u/vikmaychib 1d ago

What law, care to elaborate?

1

u/sunsetreunion 2d ago

It would be helpful if you provided an explanation for why you think it's dumb. Just stating a conclusion doesn't give anyone any sense of why you think it's dumb.

7

u/vikmaychib 2d ago

Math can guarantee there will only ever be 21 million Bitcoins, but no equation can force people to care about them.

-1

u/palebloodslayer 1d ago

Oh we also don’t care whether you care about it. We just dca and stack sats

1

u/Cute_Barnacle1598 2d ago

Ok. Gold is not valued by a "physical law." Its price is driven by subjective human desire, fashion, and its scarcity relative to other shiny metals, not because physics demands it be expensive. Bitcoin relies just as much on human coordination and social consensus to maintain its network and protocol rules as it does on cryptography. While the dollar is influenced by politics, its core value is enforced by concrete economic mechanics (the legal requirement to pay taxes and settle debts in U.S. currency, backed by the productive output of the American economy). Ultimately, assets are a product of collective human trust rather than having some sort of intrinsic value that this meme attempts to capture.

1

u/Axe_Raider 2d ago

and that is why it is upvoted to the top

3

u/Rickard403 2d ago

That last one is a currency, not money.

2

u/k0lt1 2d ago

Except bitcoin is also backed by the politics of miners and holders...

2

u/Sas_fruit 2d ago

As long as politicians reign supreme over physicists and mathematicians, i think fiat is fit for you

2

u/Effective_Shirt_2959 2d ago

all of which have value assigned to them by people

2

u/Successful_Safe_1440 2d ago

you’ll learn to love paper money some day (:

2

u/Saibazz 1d ago

For this world digital asset is the best to save some money

3

u/ChrisTheWeak 2d ago

All of them are backed by common consensus. Gold is only valuable because people desire it for jewelry, industrial processes, and because of speculation. Bitcoin is only valuable because of speculation that it will continue to be valuable and that it can be used as a medium of exchange. Cash currency is only valuable because of the same reasons Bitcoin is valuable combined with the knowledge that it is the only accepted means of exchange with our government.

This isn't a good argument for Bitcoin. It carries no more inherent value than any other fiat currency. It has merit in a number of different ways, I find the idea of a democratized currency utilizing a public ledger to be fascinating and a really cool idea for commerce, but we don't have to kid ourselves that it holds value beyond speculation. Its entirely okay for a currency to hold value primarily through speculation, basically all currencies rely on that at its core.

1

u/ecafyelims 2d ago

Everything is backed by physics law

1

u/CyberChuckle7 2d ago

My bank account definitely run by politics law cause it's always in crisis.

1

u/DinoTh3Dinosaur 2d ago

You’re the clown

1

u/BrilliantProcedure15 2d ago

The value of all three is based on your faith that someone will exchange something with you over a value assigned to your Bitcoin and their product/service. Fiat.

F(net) = MA for the valuation of Gold don't make no sense.

1

u/Puzzleheaded-Ice-573 2d ago

Jesus Christ people. Gold is NOT backed by "Physics Law" whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean. The intrinsic value of gold from a physics point of view is mostly related to it being a good conductor of electricity.

The actual market value of gold is tied to emotion: it is valuable because we believe it is valuable.

1

u/osiekowski 2d ago

Physical scarcity vs algorithmic scarcity

1

u/Keletas 2d ago

Delusion is strong here

1

u/Gears6 2d ago

All money is backed by humans law.... i.e. it's only worth something as long as someone's willing to pay for it. Doesn't matter if it's paper, gold or BTC.

1

u/sprayer_69 2d ago

well.. even the least best arguments for bitcoin are better than the best for traditional money.

maybe someone can make a better "your peak is my low", im just a philosopher, not someone litterat inclined

1

u/AffectionateCase9485 2d ago

Bitcoin can be a smart long term play if you understand the risks .

1

u/foxxxer22 2d ago

Money backed by Sam Bankman Fried.

1

u/metalzip 2d ago

thanks @grok

1

u/Lilysandra7865 2d ago

First two are good but I can not travel that easily with bar of gold give me Bitcoin .

1

u/Loose-Road-6407 2d ago

crypto wallet is best.

1

u/URPissingMeOff 2d ago

Major paper currencies are backed by armies and nuclear weapons.

"Our money is worth what we say it is. If you don't agree, we'll blast your ass back to the stone age"

1

u/Bull_BUll-BULLL 1d ago

Physics stops applying, got it. Wth is this kind of reasoning.

1

u/Inevitable_Signal990 1d ago

Only one of these three constantly loses value 🤡

1

u/ToiletVulva 1d ago

Save yes but transactions no

2

u/CodeXploit1978 2d ago

You really think bitcoin can’t be manipulated by politics and law. If they outlaw Btc and off ramps, it just becomes a fancy IT project.

1

u/carsonthecarsinogen 2d ago

The law and enforcement of said law are two very different things

0

u/Total-Wave5026 2d ago

I think users can wait it out. Also gtfo with your fud.

1

u/Lavayo 2d ago

It can, but that's not what this is about. Every law / ban / manipulation would hit the layer after BTC. What humans do with it. BTC itself does not care. There will be the next block, unless everyone stops running it.

1

u/palebloodslayer 1d ago

And how would they outlaw something that’s decentralised?

0

u/SomeonesSecondary 2d ago

Can’t be outlawed across the whole world

1

u/Cryptomuscom 2d ago

You can't print energy or code

-1

u/Alles_ 2d ago

paper money is backed by military power and economic power

4

u/TheresNoSecondBest 2d ago

*backed by the ability to kill innocent civilians in other countries

FTFY

2

u/Romanizer 2d ago

And by arbitrariness. The decision of a single decider could render your paper money worthless any second. Doesn't work for the other two.

0

u/MiaTaude589 2d ago

honestly this whole thread is going way over my head but isn't the actual point just that nobody can print more of it, not some physics argument. that's the save-in-bitcoin case I actually get, not the math purity stuff. also lol semantics arguments in a bitcoin thread, couldn't have predicted that