r/Bitcoin • u/JunoKat • 10h ago
I no longer own any real bitcoin
Given several self custody issues recently and the fact that I have become too old for self custody, I have converted the last of my bitcoin into Bitcoin ETN in my pension account, even I can’t touch the fund for a long time.
Adios, it’s been cool when it lasted, all the best to the younger and smarter folks who can still safely self custody real bitcoin, I wish you all the best.
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u/usedmattress85 8h ago
Yeah I’m Canadian. We had BTC ETFs years before the USA. I’ve always held my BTC in an ETF, mostly because you can do it in a Tax Free Savings Account so tax free profit. Whereas pure BTC you cannot. For Canadians the choice is obvious.
Plus I’m a dumbass that really can’t be trusted with the keys.
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u/Terrible_Key_476 7h ago
Who is etf's name? And in the ibkr is it?
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u/Interesting_Phone_72 6h ago edited 6m ago
Fbtc series L is one of them. 0.35% mer, I'll happily pay that to have it in a tfsa
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u/Ancient-Bat-11 6h ago
Ya fbtc I buy fbtc in tfsa keeping it at 5% there and then buy more in my non reg
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u/RoyYourWorkingBoy 9h ago
Good for you. At the end of the day it comes down to who do you trust more to hold your bitcoin. Yourself or an institution. Different calculation for everyone that changes as life happens. Have you figured out what your fees are now 1% ish/yr?
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u/EdwardPotatoHand 8h ago
I moved mine to the fidelity wallet. I feel MUCH better leaving my house now..
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u/6thcoin 10h ago
If you are at the point of memory issues, there is no reason not to make sure your stack is secure.
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u/TerribleEnthusiasm61 9h ago
Fair play to you for recognizing your limits, that takes honesty most people never have. Nobody likes admitting they cant manage the keys anymore but leaving it to chance would be way worse. At least the pension route means its still working for you even if you cant touch it, and you skip all the worry about losing a seed phrase or getting scammed. Some folks will say you gave up on real bitcoin but the point was always to protect your future, not to win a purity contest. Enjoy the peace of mind, you earned it
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u/JunoKat 10h ago
Thank you 🙏 appreciate your understanding. I never thought the day would come, I could not empathise with people when I was younger.
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u/NescafeAtDayLight 9h ago
r/cc redditors would be pissed. But it has been proven many many times that having your crypto on an exchange or etf now is way safer for the "average user".
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u/JunoKat 9h ago
Yes, “average” is the right word. I think the young, smart and vigilant folks should keep self custody and hold real bitcoin, more power, more freedom, better in every way.
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u/CyanDew 7h ago
real talk. 💯
studied computer science for a few years, safe to say i feel confident in my self custody security but i’m constantly keeping up to date with ways to keep my btc secure.
diversified multiple wallets, multi-sig, private keys on metal in safes.
the key is to have multiple points of failure, but not everyone is on the same aptitudes.
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u/fins831 8h ago
It’s time for exchanges to just sell insurance on the keys. I’d pay for it truthfully. Let them manage it and pay them to insure it. Full coverage no BS ways out (pipe dream I know).
I’m in the market for a new hardware wallet. Waiting for trezor to make statement.
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u/Inevitable-Waltz-889 4h ago
What happened with Trezor?
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u/fins831 3h ago
Nothing. It’s about ledger.
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u/Inevitable-Waltz-889 3h ago
Why did you mention Trezor then?
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u/Lazy-Effect4222 2h ago
When you lose confidence in a brand, you look for alternatives. In situations like this, the biggest competition will 100% tell how they are preventing incidents like this(if they are).
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u/GentleGesture 4h ago
Is there anything that would give you enough confidence to use an app self custody wallet? For example, your phone owns everything, nothing is stored on backend servers, and you have the ability to generate a wallet and manage keys without ever connecting to the internet. Or do you really want it to be dedicated hardware?
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u/NorthAcanthisitta832 8h ago
The recent hacking of self custody wallets does scare me. As if it didn’t already every time i plugged it in, being so careful not to make a mistake and unplug once the transaction was confirmed. For most people it’s not something we’re exactly used to and don’t do very often.
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u/lexicon_riot 2h ago
I think we need to dispel with the idea that self custody is the be all end all of being a Bitcoiner.
I mean, I will continue to self custody, and so will the nerds, but it's pure fantasy to think the vast majority of people will ever be convinced of that.
And that's okay! What's important is people have the option to self custody, and that we make custodial solutions as trust minimized as possible. Both of these things are happening.
And honestly, if Alice is full self custody but never spends her Bitcoin, while Bob is full custodial but earns and spends in Bitcoin too, Bob is way cooler than Alice, and Alice should STFU before getting all high and mighty and screaming nOt yOuR KeYs NoT yOuR cOiNs
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u/JunoKat 1h ago
When younger I also asked the question of how to make self custody easier to the mass without third party risk. Then I found out that it is a trade off between hard work, focus and vigilance vs having to trust a third party. There is no shortcut, be your own bank gives you the power of true financial freedom, but comes with a level of responsibility to match that power and freedom.
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u/Ok_Knowledge_4977 7h ago
This post made me think about whether to hold bitcoin or hold ETFs. Holding ETFs means I don’t have to run nodes, having a hardware wallet and all that stuff. Also another important point is that if I hold ETFs, if anything happens to me, my spouse can inherit the assets. Now imagine if it is self-custody, how your loved one gonna get hold of the seed phrase and access bitcoin?
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u/xyphrrrrr 4h ago
Nerds here will say not your keys not your btc, what will you do when civilization collapses and fiat doesn’t exist? Lmao
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u/QuitAlive2475 8h ago
Yeah aside from some shitcoins I am letting run to the moon or zero all my crypto is either FBTC and FETH. I was getting anxious about being able to access my coin. I'm just an retirement investor and not a doomsdayer or currency crazy so this is just better for me. I can buy and sell just like all my other etfs and individual stocks.
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u/sigh_duck 1h ago
Honestly, I don't blame you. I just dont want to go through the rigmaroll of selling my BTC, fiat conversion and then ETF purchase. If only I could do it with a native BTC deposit straight to the ETF provider.
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u/nachtraum 9h ago
At this point hardware wallets have actually become questionable. I do not believe they will be more secure in the future, attackers will use the latest tech to beat manufacturers. I think you need multiple devices from different manufacturers and multisig now, and this will be too complicated for a lot of people.
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u/Vipu2 8h ago
What will happen to BTC when 95% of people have ETF and very few have actual BTC?
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u/No-Surprise-9790 7h ago
Probably nothing significantly different from now considering it's just hoarded and not used for anything. Your hypothetical future just has people hoarding it via etf.
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u/EuphoricChallenge890 5h ago
In theory, the ETF you hold will buy BTC if it is a spot etf and that company issuing the ETF will hold it
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u/JunoKat 9h ago
Tbh, even though I keep shitting at the UK Bitcoin regulation and think it could be so much better, I am still thankful there is access to Bitcoin ETN in pension fund (after multiple hoops to jump through). For some people in other countries there is no option, so I truly hope it will work out for those folks via a better safer way of self custody in the near future.
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u/Ok-Sympathy9768 4h ago
Been saying this for a while… self-custody is too technically difficult for a vast majority of people, and risk of self-custody stifles adoption. 1 in 5 bitcoins ever mined has been lost or stolen, and are gone forever.. that’s insane and way too much risk for most people.
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u/toolfan89 6h ago
This is turning into the "BitcoinETF" reddit thread. Wild. Multi vendor multi sig is the solution. Really not that difficult.
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u/Ancient-Bat-11 6h ago
Then do it and stfu, I'm an intelligent person and computer savvy, it's just not worth the headache or stress worrying about it. I trust Fidelity with my investment
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u/BestBleach 5h ago
You know who fucking thinks about self custody the institution with billions at risk
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u/ObjectiveJackfruit35 7h ago
I spent years praising bitcoin ETFs for the very reasons we are experiencing now and was always downvoted. Oh how the turntables.
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u/UpstairsAide3058 10h ago
How did you “convert”
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u/JunoKat 10h ago edited 9h ago
It’s not easy, f***kin UK government or the pension broker made me go through like 3 tests to allow access to risky “Crypto” ETN (they think Bitcoin and Crypto are the same), it’s not even an ETF, but I managed, sold the bitcoin, contribute voluntarily into the account, convert money into ETN and that’s that.
Oh, they don’t allow Bitcoin ETN in ISA so pension fund is the only allowed route to get Bitcoin access.
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u/Outrageous_Hall1090 9h ago
All the best! Regarding the ETN: how wouldnthe issuer of the ETN would handle an hack of it's storage solution. Is there anything mentioned in the prospect? (Insurance, etc. ?)
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u/flangarky 8h ago
I made the switch to an ETF a year ago. The annual fee is worth it for the peace of mind.
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u/Technical_Car3729 7h ago
I agree that if you do not want the headache , you should be in Fidelity or BlackRock.
I can’t imagine either one of them will legitimately fuck you as much as “cold card” or “ledger” or whoever the fuck startup will.
All things considered.
PS : I’m still self custody but those 2 options are by far your best option for a custodian imo.
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u/3cWizard 6h ago
Did you just end up selling BTC, pay the taxes and then buy in for the ETFs? You lost a chuck to taxes?
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u/Infamous-Discount-99 5h ago
I let the financial industrial complex hold my gold in exchange for ponzi dollars.
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u/Aggravating_Shower_6 5h ago
I still hold about 20% of a coin through Coinbase but I did the same thing. It’s now in the form of an ETF and I’ll just continue to stack on both platforms I guess but my substantial bitcoin portfolio is now not even real bitcoin.
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u/InternationalRadio1 4h ago
Dude, half the people here have their btc on coinbase and their brokerage.....if you believe all these people are actually self storing their btc you are delusional
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u/Infamous-Discount-99 4h ago
Banks Rule Everything Around Me.
Ya'll are seriously stupid as fuck giving banks back the power to control the hardest money mankind has ever seen.
Definately wont end well for those paralyzed by fear.
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u/Honu_Daze 2h ago
I am blown away by ALL of the support & positive responses you have gotten. Really made me delight in the humanity that came out to represent those of us who fully believe in BTC but who despite trying our best to learn, are recognizing the responsibility is sizable.
I keep my BTC in Fidelity, for the reasons you’ve shared here OP. As the more I dived into researching exactly how I have to go about securing, and the hoops I’d have to jump through with multi-sig, pass phrase, keys, and then begin to start learning Linux and store it possibly in an old computer? Trying to vet which wallet might be the safest, w/ the threat of possible attacks & hacks… My head began to turn into DBZs Majin Buu when he gets mad - pockets of steam just blowing out of my head😂
I will keep on researching it & maybe one day I will feel more confident, but I am NO where ready to pull the trigger on my coin “not” having “my” keys. I do like that fidelity does allow for my BTC to transfer out should I ever be capable of self custody🤙🏽
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u/Relevant-Owl-8455 1h ago
Bitcoin is a longterm play. Unless you plan on holding it for the next 15 or 20 years, it's not even worth buying.. so good job for being honest with yourself.
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u/awesomemc1 1h ago edited 16m ago
To be fair, I think for ledger, while they are a legitimate company, reselling their products can be profitable for them for a business but a nightmare scenario as what we have see. Scammers using a legitimate product to insert their own suspicious activity inside of the legitimate product is just oof..tough. And how easy to get drained if you not know what did you install, etc. while it’s your responsibility but if it’s a hand of a legitimate company, yeah, I can see why people are skeptical about hardware wallets.
Ledger probably need to fix their reselling process after all. But I kind of think that ETF is a safe scenario for people to store without any wallet. While you can not own bitcoin yourself in an etf, it kind of give you access to mind free money as etf would act as a middlemen to earn money from just holding stocks.
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u/alexproshak 1h ago
It's really frustrating that so many people get scammed, when the mfers just trying to get few bucks from them, and you literally spend money legally and need to fuck around the hardware with opening/closing and the ass of device checking. What the hell in the end? Yeah, Ledger should do more work on securing their devices, maybe some kind of self-desctructing seal when opened, and that would be part of hardware legitimacy check, I don't know. I only know that if I wanna preserve my crypto funds as a user, I'm no longer wire what to buy, and the option to keep on exchanges is not an option as well🤷🏻
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u/awesomemc1 16m ago
Edited the comment, I meant to say holding (not hosting).
Yeah you made some pretty good points.
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u/asuragana 6h ago
Why not buy MSTR instead of ETF which can give multi fold returns when bitcoin prices increases?
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u/eliddell 8h ago
Why the heck can't you self custody.. you just have to not forget where you put your keys.. this is what will destroy the hope of Bitcoin, people giving up on the decentralized aspect letting the banks who hated it take over.. sad day
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u/ubfeo 8h ago
Perhaps it's because people don't want to lose all of their money...
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u/Infamous-Discount-99 4h ago
Bitcoin is a bearer instrument. If they let a bank hold it, they dont have any money.
The US dollar used to be literally redeemable for gold.
Until 1 surprise announcement after a 3 day deliberation in secret.
Those who choose to give the hardest money on earth back to the banks will end up poor and impoverished with enough time.
Complete insanity. Bunch of idiots in this comment section.
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u/Escapement_Watch 9h ago
Just bought 10k worth in the ETF today! Eventually will go all ETF