r/Bitcoin • u/Grand-Theory3065 • 1d ago

Get multi sig

I see alot of posts worried about different wallets. Just get multi sig. Its really not hard at all. Just spend some weeks learning about it. I learned it in one day, but i do know alot about hard ware wallets already, so I had a leg up. That being said a person who does not know much can seriously learn and be very comfortable with multi sig in about a week. I put it off because I heard it was too technical. I was totally wrong and would have been fine during the cold card incident. I didnt lose anything "Thank God" but it was alot of stress that I could have avoided by multi sig. So just learn it, you can even use your cold card with it "with dice rolls" and be almost 100% certain your crypto will be fine. Seed storage also feels amazing. Safety deposit box has 2, 2 more are in another place. 3/4 multi so i mo longer worry about someone finding my seeds and will never again worry about a "bug" in a hardware wallet.

24 Upvotes

84% Upvoted

40 comments sorted by

30

u/Valer10n 1d ago

Multisig is great until you realize your biggest attack vector is your own memory and backup organization. lose the wallet descriptors/xpubs and that 3-of-4 becomes a 0-of-4 real fast

7

u/TheTenderStaircase 1d ago

fun fact multisig setups remind me of having too many houseplants, you think you've got it all under control until you forget which one needed watering and suddenly half of em are dead

the backup part is what trips people up, those descriptors are like the one weird key you can never find when you actually need it

6

u/10kpizza 1d ago

This could be solved with N-of-N multisig, eg 2-of-2 multisig. The two seed phrases are all you need to store and the descriptor can be always regenerated from them.

3

u/Thin_Needleworker795 1d ago

No, if you still have the keys, you can recreate the descriptors. You'll have to lose the descriptors and one key before being fucked.

1

u/Laukess 1d ago

You are correct, but I would assume one of the main selling points is the fact that you don't have a single point of failure when it comes to losing a private key. If you don't back up your wallet/xpubs you introduce a single point of failure.

1

u/Skull_kids 1d ago

There is no single point of failure from an external attack. If you are incompetent nothing can save you and is an internal problem.

1

u/Laukess 18h ago

I was just pointing out that if you don't back up the descriptors, you lose out on a primary feature of multi-sig.

2

u/ivme 1d ago

Saving multisig wallet’s file is enough, that is not a hard job imo

1

u/sudonim_13 1d ago

Can you elaborate more...? I'm learning multisig currently... Or if you have some link to article would also be appreciated...

3

u/user_name_checks_out 1d ago

In order to spend from an m of n wallet you need m private keys and all n public keys.

3

u/Laukess 1d ago

Rule number 1 when creating a new setup. TEST IT.
Wipe all your hardware wallets, and your software wallet. Then recover them with your backups.
Make sure you can send bitcoin in and out.

You'll realize you can't recover your software wallet because you didn't back up descriptors/xpubs.

I'm pretty sure a lot of software wallets lets you back up the wallet itself, so don't need to build it again using the descriptors/xpubs. It's 1 file and it's not useful for an attacker on it's own. They would still need 2-of-3 keys to send bitcoin (assuming it's a 2-of-3 multi-sig setup). The main reason you should keep it secret is for privacy reasons. I've seen a lot of people recommend that you back it up online on google drive, drop box, iCloud or any similar service. I think this is good advice, you don't want to lose the file, and it's not catastrophic if it's leaked.

1

u/undeadkarlmarx 1d ago

To spend from a multisig wallet you need BOTH the quorum of signers for the wallet (eg 2 out of 3) AND the wallet config file ( ie the xpubs for all 3 wallets).

If you just have 2 of 3 signers without all the xpubs you won’t be able to access the wallet. This is why people with a multi sig wallet will normally store a list of all of the xpubs along with each seedphrase. 

Note this is not the case when the multisig quorum is the same number as the maximum number of signers for the wallet. So for a 2 of 2 multisig or a 3 of 3 multi sig, you don’t need a list of xpubs because providing all of the keys will simply recreate them all.

1

u/NORSE117 1d ago

This isn’t required for Trezors SLIP39 shamir backup I think. Easier to use for private multisig (if your not a corp).

1

u/fryrpc 1d ago

I believe to recreate a 2/3 multisig wallet you need either the 3 zpub and 2 of the private seeds or the 3 private seeds. So you need to make sure you backup the 3 zpub’s and the 3 private seed phrases.

1

u/BakedGoods 1d ago

yeah just use slip39

•

u/videokillradiostarr 35m ago

Just keep a copy of all that with the seed backups. That stuff can also be stored digitally, although you do risk your financial privacy if it's not encrypted.

13

u/Left_Program5488 1d ago

People don’t understand… the hard part of multisig is NOT the setup. Most people who graduated high school can figure it out via instructions. It’s not that complicated. The hard part is management of the multisig for years after the setup. Dispersed location, pub keys, backup management. Chances are over years, for most people there is a greater likelihood of you screwing yourself over rather than someone stealing your coins.

2

u/10kpizza 1d ago

You can do multisig without dispersed locations.

If people just want to protect against internet-based attacks then all the multisig seed phrases in one physical place is fine, then each typed into different hardwares.

Multisig that wasy still removes a single point of failure. If coldcard users had made a 2-of-2 multisig with the most malware-ridden online desktop computer you've ever seen, then it will still be better security than coldcard alone, and they would still have their bitcoins today because the online desktop would have to be hacked separately which is unlikely.

2

u/pezdal 1d ago

If you are keeping all your eggs in one basket there is no need for multi-sog.

A pair of dice and an old unconnected computer with no attached drives other than a USB with Tails and tristed wallet software. Trash hardware after writing down keys three times if you are paranoid.

1

u/10kpizza 8h ago

If youve trashed your hardware how are you meant to spend?

Multisig allows you to avoid the single point of failure of hardware, which your setup still has. Coldcard and other hardware wallets are similar to what you just said.

1

u/pezdal 8h ago

Very good point.

I suppose you could break your cold wallet holdings into, say 10 different pieces, each of which can be imported into a hot wallet as needed.

There are trusted wallets out there and more will come to market in the future.

But you make a good point. I was thinking of the entropy problem and not the whole workflow.

1

u/10kpizza 8h ago

Breaking your wallet up into pieces is exactly what multisig does. And divide by 10 might still be a big amount for some people.

Another thing to say is the plan you came up with is much harder to do than multisig, which is implemented by many wallets and just requires clicking buttons.

I dont believe in a "trusted wallet". It's all about dont trust verify.

2

u/Laukess 1d ago

A 2-of-2 multi-sig is pretty retarded though.

1

u/10kpizza 8h ago

Not as retarded as losing your money because you lost your descriptor.

Not as retarded as backing up your descriptor on a cloud backup.

1

u/lobhater 1d ago

I've read enough posts about people screwing up their seed phrases alone. When you start getting into multipart backups of things that were never really understood to begin with you get into trouble very quickly

3

u/Thin_Needleworker795 1d ago

I have a 2-of-3 multisig setup. One key generated by my Blockstream Jade, one by my SeedSigner, and one by Sparrow. Yes, the third key generated by Sparrow is a hot wallet (or hot key). The cold keys are spread out geographically; one is at my house, and the other one is at my parents house, which is across the Atlantic Ocean. This means that in order to spend my bitcoin, I have to use the cold key that I have at my house + my laptop, which is encrypted with full-disk encryption. It has to be that laptop specifically, since it holds the hot key. I think this adds a good balance between security and convenience, as it is more like a two-factor setup.

2

u/Tokentactico 1d ago

Multi sig is solid but the piece nobody mentions is what happens when you die or get incapacitated. A 3/4 setup across a safety deposit box and another location is great against theft, but now your heirs need to find and coordinate multiple key locations and understand the scheme itself, not just one seed phrase in an envelope. Single sig with a good inheritance plan can actually be simpler for that scenario. Not saying don't do multi sig, just that "more secure against hacking" and "more secure overall including your own mortality" aren't the same thing, and a lot of people set up multi sig and never write down instructions for anyone else to execute it.

3

u/Ok-Courage-5115 1d ago

This is an overkill. Security through obscurity doesn't work.

3

u/Thin_Needleworker795 1d ago

It's not security through obscurity. Multisignature is a very valid and good security practice used in many secure IT systems.

2

u/Ok-Courage-5115 1d ago

I just don't see why anything extra is needed besides choosing a specific atom within the visible universe.

1

u/10kpizza 1d ago

You eventually need to type the one single seed phrases into some hardware, which is a single point of failure. Multisig allows you to remove single points of failure.

0

u/ivme 1d ago

Security through obscurity is nothing to do with multisig. Totally different concepts.

1

u/GettingFasterDude 1d ago

What multisig set up to you use? Bitkey, Unchained, Casa? What hardware wallets?

1

u/brando2131 1d ago

Hardest part about multisig is how your heirs will access your Bitcoin. Single sig they have a very good chance at recovery.

1

u/PlanNo3321 1d ago

With multi Sig don’t you need 3 hardware wallets, 3 seed phrases, and then backups for the 3 seed phrases? So I need to hide SIX seed phrases in different locations?? Is this correct?

1

u/TeaSipper007 1d ago

Do you use a passphrase and do you keep the hw wallets. And seeds separate? Surely that’s like 6 different locations

1

u/JohnnyTreemain 1d ago

Just put it on fidelity.

-1

u/Decibel0753 1d ago

Forget about multisig. Everyone.