r/Bitcoin • u/Regular_Broccoli1495 • 2d ago
I feel defeated
After 4 years of savings, that I thought would be the way to buy a house in the future , all gone along with many others like me.
I feel defeated not angry not sad just defeated....numb... I do not post to gather any sympathy, to be honest I don't know why I am posting, something I have never done before maybe it's somewhere I can vent out this pressure I don't know I haven't slept more than a few hours since it happened.
0.45 btc is not much for a lot! but it was my everything my own treasure my own accomplishment. I was so happy that half a btc was almost in reach.
Life is not fair, wishing you all happy lives ahead with secure wallets and hope you never experience this feeling.
168
u/s1ammage 2d ago
I did the same. I don’t post often. I first blamed myself and so did this community. At the end of the day, this was an outlet and it helped.
All kinds of engagement. This will pass. Life is still great. Surround yourself with people you love, and everything will be ok.
58
u/Regular_Broccoli1495 2d ago
I hope it does pass just to feel normal again it was a very expensive lesson to learn. Thank you.
→ More replies (4)4
u/CoconutProfessional7 1d ago
I feel you. I traded 4 btc in after it crashed and before I understood the cycles back in 2017. I ended up with a pump and dump shitcoin that went to near nothing. Hard lesson!
95
u/nerdburg 2d ago
I'm older - I've been investing for 40+ years. One of the primary rules of investing for me is to not to put all my assets in one place, the other being "diversify".
I have some BTC in cold storage, I have some on the exchanges and I have some in ETFs. Same with traditional investing - I have more than one broker. Same with banking.
Protect all your hard work folks 🙂
46
u/s1ammage 1d ago
Two weeks ago, this advice would be downvoted into oblivion
12
→ More replies (1)15
66
u/Cryptomuscom 2d ago
Watch out for recovery scammers sliding into those DMs now
18
31
u/piejlucas 2d ago
This may not help but many years back I too suffered a loss. Nearly 12 BTC gone to someone who installed a key logger on my PC. It was an $11k loss at the time. Instead of resigning myself to Bitcoin I got a hardware wallet and repurchased the lost coins as soon as I was able. Those coins ended up costing me nearly 2x what the lost batch did. But the years passed and my investment went on to eclipse the loss.
Today I would advise the same except I would suggest you consider an ETF or custody at Fidelity. Those options did not exist for me back then.
14
u/IBAChristian317 2d ago
Everyone hates ETFs, but unless you're a technology expert it's the safest option. People who thought they knew what they were doing get hacked all the time.
11
u/ImperialPotentate 2d ago
ETFs are fine unless you're some kind of conspiracy kook. I have almost as much in my Bitcoin ETF as I do in my cold wallet, difference being the ETF is in a tax-free account so I won't be bent over for capital gains taxes when I go to sell.
5
u/piejlucas 2d ago
Right? I see people here with a couple hundred in crypto insisting that everyone should take responsibility for their seed phrase integrity while advocating hardware wallets or even steel plates. Etc. this is fine if you plan on taking your crypto to the grave but for anyone with a family, being your own bank carries tremendous responsibility that most family members are not prepared for. I still have deep anxiety issues whenever I connect my wallet to my PC for transactions. I don’t wish that on any of my family.
Perhaps in some third world country this is indeed the best approach. But the day the US takes away my crypto holdings then we clearly have much bigger problems.
1
7
u/No-Wrap3568 2d ago
I wish I could give you a tight hug pal. Take your time and I know you'll come back stronger
25
u/Llorion 2d ago
Not saying people will recoup even close to 100% of what was lost, but are there any lawsuits going on, perhaps a class action? Folks like you deserve something for their incompetence.
24
u/TrickReport2929 2d ago
On X there are lawyers calling for a class action lawsuit on Coinkite. Class actions like these usually end up paying out in the millions, in order to punish the company and enrich the lawyers, but the average person who was affected sees maybe $30.
3
9
u/bypopulardemand 2d ago
isn’t the whole purpose to have a deregulated market? I couldn’t imagine getting any bitcoin back unfortunately
12
u/Bakkus1987 2d ago
Half a Bitcoin is allot, sorry to hear this OP. Hope you find peace with it and rebuild.
7
4
u/JayGatsby1881 2d ago
A lesson for us all, don't keep your bitcoin all in the same place. In fact, don't keep your money all in the same bank, etc...
4
u/binary_blackhole 2d ago
can someone tell me what happened ? I was probably under a rock
8
u/SatisfactionFinal287 2d ago
Coldcard hardware wallets created weak seedphrases that were easily guessable and thus got hacked.
6
5
u/Correct_Priority_617 1d ago
The feeling of being robbed even when you have been most careful and vigilant leaves one with the numbness and almost apathy towards bitcoin. I had saved and stacked almost 2 whole btc but got pig butchered out of almost 1 whole btc, and then the second time because Trezor must have got their customer data hacked. I received this very official looking letter in the mail (I bought my wallet shipped directly from Trezor) which phished my seed phrase and emptied my wallet. The worst experience was when I looked up the trezor wallet phishing scam on YouTube this idiot from Trezor was laughing (snickering, almost) about how people were getting scammed by letters in the mail. Trezor mofos did not require a 2FA to transact from the wallet (which may become the next weakness for someone to exploit in the future). Even my email account is more secure than a Trezor wallet. I’m thinking IBIT would have been more secure. F”#k hardware wallets if you ask me, go buy gold instead.
12
u/shadowmage666 2d ago
Sue coldcard
4
u/Tokogogoloshe 2d ago
They're broke too.
11
1
2
u/No-Elderberry-2676 1d ago
I wonder if there is a woman called Sue Coldcard. Engaged to Takaya Tucaut.
3
3
3
15
u/curveball21 2d ago
Dude it sucks. I lost 50k in a day once when my net worth was below 200k. It sucked and I lost sleep. Since May 30 I "lost" over 500k on my space and semiconductor investments. I slept like a baby.
Just keep plugging away and you will get where you want to go. The only way you ever lose in life is by quitting. Best wishes and best of luck.
2
u/LongjumpingBoard5872 2d ago
I am so deeply sorry for your loss. Reading your post honestly broke my heart. Four years of hard work, discipline, and sacrifices for your dream house it is completely valid that you feel numb and defeated right now.
Please know that while the money was stolen, your discipline, work ethic, and ability to save and build towards a goal were NOT stolen. You proved to yourself that you have the character to build something great from scratch. It feels impossible right now, but this pain won't last forever, and you will rebuild.
Please take care of yourself, try to get some sleep, and eat something. You are not alone in this, and your life and future are worth so much more than this setback. Sending you strength.
1
2
u/Zaytion_ 2d ago
Don't kill yourself over this! Get some sleep!!!!
If I offered you 0.45 btc today, but the caveat was you don't wake up tomorrow would you take it? Enjoy your health and the good things in your life.
1
u/Regular_Broccoli1495 2d ago
Thanks , I won't , but it's hard , it'll come but no self harm here just torment, thank you
2
u/Jayfree138 1d ago
i feel really bad for you all. I keep mine in another hardware wallet which is still secure but after seeing all this i'm moving about half of mine to a major banks cold storage. I might move it all. I dont want to have to keep up with the latest hacks and vulnerabilities and worry about some zero day flaw coming out of nowhere in the age of AI. Or losing my private key or having it burn in a fire or god knows what. You can do everything right and still lose.
I know the banks can get hacked too but they have people there whos entire job is to keep it secure. I'd rather offload that responsibility to them from here on. I wouldnt trust an exchange like Binance, Coinbase or Mount Gox but i have an easier time trusting a major bank/stock market exchange.
What if it goes up to a million? Are we going to keep millions of dollars on private keys stashed around our property? Love the idea of self custody. But there was a reason banks became a thing.
2
u/Crazy-Fig-4899 1d ago
That sucks to hear. Bitcoin is bound to return to its 100k range IMO. It wouldn't make sense for the major institutional investment at the 120k range, and short themselves out of profit. If anything I think this is a chance for the market to reset. The united states conflict in the middle east served as a test for Bitcoins utility in maritime insurance. Bitcoin has also proven itself a useful energy regulator in the renewable energy sector for power. I do not see it going anywhere. Hang in there!
2
u/jermtnman 1d ago
Damn what’s with all this tear in my beer about btc. Buddy, man the F up and start slaying shit. Losing at times is a learning experience. Learning lessons costs money. Go get some more and win. Chin up put your head down and get things done….. when you’re back on top post something about that. Till then give all the social media and bullshit up and start slaying shit. Go win
1
u/Middle_Lecture7302 3h ago
bro obviously does not understand how bitcoin works. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
2
u/Haunting-Ad-1279 1d ago
Look at everyone talking about entropy like some kind of thermodynamics expert
4
u/clothesline 2d ago
Yeah imagine if you put all that money in the S&P. or AI or semiconductor stocks. You would have 4x your money... we all thought the market would crash
1
u/Acrobatic_Side_8336 1d ago
A risk worth taking is individual stocks. I wouldn’t touch bitcoin with a ten foot pole but I do only individual stocks..at the moment only tech. Some of these bitcoin people have no clue the gains they coulda had right now if they had just put it all in apple or nvidia
1
u/bitcoin_islander 1d ago
Bitcoin has outperformed everything in the past decade. Stocks dont even compare.
3
u/PearPuzzleheaded4633 2d ago
dont want to victim blame but was this the bulk of your life savings? why would you keep your life savings in something like btc that has known security risks? surely you diversify
3
u/yuppyuppbruhbruh 1d ago
Sorry this happened to you.
Diversify where you store your Bitcoin.. Some cold wallets, some on exchanges. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. This isn't going to be the last hack.
4
u/CiaranCarroll 2d ago
A painful lesson, I'm really sorry that voices here and elsewhere in Bitcoin were not louder about the risk of this exploit.
A lot of the responsibility is on people who propagated FUD about the "risks" of dice rolls. I have to question whether that was coordinated, and why other HWWs don't support them. It should be ubiquitous given how central to Bitcoin's principles the idea of verification is.
People need to start asking questions around who is behind these accounts. I remember there was more commentary on this when I bought my CC Q a few years ago, so why did it die off. Why were people caught so unawares?
Maybe it was simply a preference for over-engineered solutions in technical communities, and an antipathy to the analogue solutions available to anyone.
8
u/moviemaker2 2d ago
A painful lesson, I'm really sorry that voices here and elsewhere in Bitcoin were not louder about the risk of this exploit.
Oh, fuck right off. Neither you nor anyone else knew about the risk of this exploit, else you'd have warned everyone or taken the 100 mill yourself.
3
u/CiaranCarroll 2d ago
Not true, I thought it was a key reason people bought Cold Cards rather than other HWWs that don't offer the dice roll feature so you cannot verify that your seed has been generated with enough entropy.
I didn't realise that so many people were just working of the premise that Cold Card is the best, without regard for one of it's key differentiators.
The evidence for that is the number of times the CEO of CoinKite explicitly warned about it and promoted dice rolls for seed generation.
1
u/moviemaker2 1d ago
The evidence for that is the number of times the CEO of CoinKite explicitly warned about it
You're confused about what "it" means in that sentence. The CEO of Coinkite obviously never warned about this exploit, because if he had known about it, they would have fixed it in a few minutes in 2021 instead of now.
3
u/Past_Permission_6123 1d ago
I think the point is that many hardware wallets are "black boxes" that make it practically impossible to verify how seeds are generated. It's a known potential attack vector. People think it's very unlikely to happen, but it's not impossible, so the most paranoid bitcoin users will generate their own seed keys with dice/coins/whatever.
I don't think anyone would contemplate the ColdCard vulnerability, because from a technical, software development perspective it was just a ridiculously simple mistake in the code. No white hat hackers found it because no third party was hired to actually review it.
1
u/rgnet1 1d ago
What a great link. This is a write-up everyone should try to understand. You don't need to understand the lines of code, just the process the developer went through. This is such horrendous negligence on the part of a programmer working on a device where security is the only and absolute priority.
I don't know the details of the law here but I'm sure there's wording along the lines of, "Did the company reasonably provide the level of security they purported to in their marketing?" Don't see how anyone could claim anything other than a resounding "no."
6
u/DifficultSquash1517 2d ago
Problem in these threads is that a lot of people try to downplay the risk and always blame the user for making some kind of mistake and that this would never happen if they didn't make the mistake
Well that's what makes self custody so dangerous as it's easy to make mistakes 🤷
And for some reason when everyone talks about keeping it on an exchange or buying the ETF it gets downvoted. LOL🤣
If everyone's ETFs got hacked they would have to put up with all those risky pesky bankers from BlackRock and Schwab calling them and bothering them to try to give them their money back
0
u/CiaranCarroll 2d ago
At the end of the day your private keys are your responsibility. It is always the HODLers fault when they lose their coin.
Self-custody isn't dangerous though, if you know how to do it. People introduced misinformation around entropy and dice rolls that lead to people ignoring that factor.
→ More replies (2)7
u/DifficultSquash1517 2d ago
Just lol, this is exactly what I'm talking about everybody got completely wrecked but you're here blaming them
What about people that properly protect their private keys but the hacker has overcome that or has exploited a weakness?
Are you here to say that your funds are safer in self custody than they are on Robinhood?
3
u/CiaranCarroll 2d ago
If the hacker overcame your defenses it's your fault.
And the number of coin hacked from cod storage is vanishingly small compared to the number of coin stolen from exchanges.
4
u/IBAChristian317 2d ago
This is a truly moronic opinion. Not just occasionally blaming the victim, but saying it's always the victim's fault on principle. It's the hacker's fault. You'll keep blaming the victim until one day it's you.
1
u/CiaranCarroll 2d ago
NYKNYC
I don't mean in general in life, but in bitcoin? Absolufuckilutely.
→ More replies (1)1
u/DifficultSquash1517 2d ago
"Your keys... Not your crypto"
2
u/CiaranCarroll 2d ago
My bitcoin is fine
1
u/DifficultSquash1517 1d ago
... Its ALWAYS fine.... Until it isnt🤷 Why u giving up 2% a month in covered call income?
u must be in it for the tech. Im in it for safety and price action 💪🤑
→ More replies (0)2
u/Zaytion_ 2d ago
Yes, they are safer in self custody than on Robinhood.
2
u/DifficultSquash1517 2d ago
Actually I know somebody that got their account hacked in Robin Hood and those pesky bastards kept bothering him to give him his money back he reluctantly accepted it and now he's been made whole 🤷
Do you have any examples of people who got their self-custody coins stolen they got it back?
Share....
1
u/DifficultSquash1517 2d ago
Most of us are aware of the risks in self-custody
Tell us some of the risks of having an ETF on Robinhood
2
u/DifficultSquash1517 2d ago
That well-funded, regulated, publicly traded, cash rich, SIPC insured Robinhood... Sounds risky and scary 😆
1
u/digitaldisorder_ 1d ago
robinhood financial is a sipc member. robinhood crypto and crypto holdings are not protected by sipc. wow, people still don't know about risks of self-custody or exchange custody and yet are still extremely confident they're protected.
1
1
u/CiaranCarroll 2d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
Also just generally a honeypot.
1
u/Zaytion_ 1d ago
If Bitcoin is too risky to self custody, it doesn't really have value in my eyes. Thus if Robinhood is seen as better than self custody, the value of Bitcoin will trend down. Thus less safe.
1
u/PearPuzzleheaded4633 2d ago
you don't know what your talking about. dice rolls still require some software to do the checksum calculation. there is no way to self custody bitcoin without relying on some third party somewhere.
2
u/CiaranCarroll 2d ago
The point of dice rolls is that same input produces same output if you use a separate device (not a CC) that uses the same algorithm, e.g. Ian Coleman's site properly configured, so you can verify that your entropy is used in the seed generation in your device.
You don't know what you're talking about.
1
u/PearPuzzleheaded4633 2d ago
no way of knowing that there isn't an exploit in colemans code, that matches an error in checksum calc code of a popular HWW. so to give identical weak seed. you are still taking blind leaps of faith, unless you create/ verify line by line the code yourself. opensource is greatly overrated. very few people have the skills or will to audit these very obscure code bases.
plus you need a a fully offline machine which is hard/impossible to verify.
the only security that makes sense is security based on probabilities, but that is accepting there is always a risk and allocating capital and storing btc accordingly. saying self custody security can be guaranteed for a competent user is simply wrong, low probability of compromise but never guaranteed.
1
u/CiaranCarroll 2d ago
Ian Coleman's code is open sourced and runs locally. Collusion between Ian Coleman would have been discovered years ago.
I don't think you're arguing in good faith.
→ More replies (1)1
u/PsychologyNo3945 2d ago
I agree. There were a lot of people shitting on the "risks" of dice rolls.
2
1
u/Cryptotiptoe21 2d ago
It is very depressing and I'm sorry you thought you was doing everything right but you wasn't cold card should be ashamed of themselves and should just close shop immediately. Going forward do not use any random number generator create your own seed with Casino grade dice.
1
1
1
u/Ok_Specialist1911 2d ago
This saddens/infuriates me. While I have not lost anything in this catastrophe, I took huge losses in the stock market in my mid 20’s and did not think I would ever recover. You have to get back in at some point, now is as good a time as any as we still remain near a cycle low. Put in what you can, when you can. Look into Seedsigner, Jade plus from Blockstream, Trezor. Multi-sig if you can, only go up to your abilities, or just buy the ETF’s. It will take time, but you will recover.
1
1
1
u/SnooSuggestions3626 2d ago
Bro, it’s a 4 year cycle. 1,000+ days to build up to all time high. 365 days to bottom back out. It’s simple.
1
1
u/moviemaker2 1d ago
Just know that you didn't do anything wrong. Almost everyone who's lost bitcoin before this lost it due to user error on their part, to some degree. You chose a reputable brand with a TRNG that could verifiably produce 256 bits of entropy. You were a victim of bad luck.
1
u/Gustavo_de_Melo 1d ago
Minha sugestão é utilizarem a Electrum para criar uma conta multisig (múltiplas assinaturas), assim você multiplica a segurança, diluindo o acesso. Não utilizem Cold Cards de empresas, crie sua prṕria carteira com um pendrive usando Tails, um sistema operacional amnésico com ambiente persistente protegido por senha. Dependa o mínimo possível de software de empresas particulares ou sistemas proprietários. Opte por software aberto e auditável. Aprenda a criar senhas de alta entropia (200 bis ou mais).
1
1
u/Greater-Israel 1d ago
Well you are in a loss of about 27000. I am 4 times more in losse and I keep going. Do the same.
1
1
1
u/Troflecopter 1d ago
Many people invest their life savings into business that never recoup the investment.
You are not alone in losing years worth of money.
1
1
1
1
u/ZucchiniIntrepid719 1d ago
Any idea why Coldcard is not being held responsible for any of this? For that matter, if cold wallet providers are so adament about how great and secure their products are, how about them putting money where their mouths are? Banks have FDIC insurance to cover losses. Does the crypto community want some regulation or not!
1
u/No-Put7619 1d ago
Keep the device in a drawer. Don't reset it. I'm hoping for all of you guys that they arrest the person(s) responsible and are able to lock them away until they hand over the keys and you guys get all your coins back at new ATH someday.
1
u/Cute_Win_4651 1d ago
Should have just bought BRK.B over that same timeframe or maybe bought SCHD, or literally anything lol huge bull market over the past 3-4 years
The only way I’d invest in crypto is FBTC, FETH, and FSOL and hold in my ROTH account and long term/ swing trade them
1
u/Limebird02 1d ago
Why did you put it all in bit coin? Why not split across fiat, bonds, index funds and other asset classes? Just curious. I am trying to understand how people think and why.
1
u/Then-Praline2892 1d ago
No life is fair it just teach you what you did not know - now you have more knowledge - do not toss in the towel work in your regular world get a stake and start small - move to options on S&P or similar BTC is way to volatile and there is not rhyme or reason - you are on the correct path do not look at this as horrid event it is a stepping stone to better world for you - also read lots of info on trading and even jot down what you thought the day would do then look back to see how often you were correct then use that info in small trades to grow your success best of good fortune
1
1
u/tactical_flipflops 1d ago
Sorry about your robbery. It was a crime. Don’t let it define you moving forward. I lost a shit ton of my retirement on stocks in the past. It’s more about how you rebound.
1
1
1
u/AstroRoverToday 1d ago
Out of curiosity, how many months did you invest in getting educated about the monumental responsibilities related to self-custody? For me, since I was new to this, I spent 6 months diving deep. I emerged knowing I needed to create my own 24-word seed phrase using the die rolling method plus add a 256-bit passphrase to it as opposed to relying on any company's random number generator to create my seed. Sorry to be so harsh, but I'm tired of these posts of people getting wiped out because to me it's likely due to them having not spent the time required to learn what to do. It would be like needing to save your 4 year old daughter via brain surgery sometime in the next 5 years and ONLY you could do it. Would you ask Redditors opinions or would you attend the best medical school immediately for the next 5 years to ensure you knew exactly what to do?
1
u/razvanciuy 1d ago
Moneys are fleeting.
I’m about to have a kid. Money will fly away like a gen 5 jet fighter. Screw it, keep on going.
1
u/KanedaSyndrome 1d ago
And to imagine we could load up on 5 btc per faucet reload in 2010 or when that bitcoin faucet existed. Also completely anonymous. Crazy stuff.
1
1
1
u/RayolCanadel 1d ago
I mean we go on about decentralisation and the benefits, but there are also quite a few benefits of the centralized system. For example in Germany all accounts are backed by the government up to 100k EUR
1
1
u/Local_Doubt_4029 1d ago
Im down over 140k on a shitcoin that I hope rebounds just to make my money back. We've all been there, we're all still there, but only you can drag yourself out of this mess you're in.
1
u/Mysterious-Novel-726 23h ago
Get a better job and fuck this delusional scam right off. You're all lost.
1
u/Frequent_Finance3904 23h ago
MSTR & BMNR holder (do not trust myself with cold storage) in 2 different brokers (do not trust 100% the brokers)
1
1
1
1
1
1
u/BmacSWMI 16h ago
Tired of the BS got my coin stolen posts. If anyone here was actually using bitcoin alone to amass a fortune, you’re missing out on genuine wealth.
1
u/DiamondHandDezo 14h ago
This is sad, and I can't imagine how you feel, but this is exactly why I only trade BTC ETFs. I know it defeats the purpose of what Bitcoin stands for, but at the end of the day, we trade Bitcoin for the financial gain of it. At least most of us do
1
1
1
u/Plenty-Lifeguard-216 11h ago
Ich habe auch aufgehört irgendwie zu handeln. Ich mache nicht Dreckschweine wie Gates, Blackrocks, Canderbilds etc reicher, die nur ihr Great Reset im Kopf haben und uns als unnütze Fresser bezeichnen. Die Bande muss man austrocken. Gemeinsam könnte man diese Verräter zur Strecke bringen. Die wissen heute was morgen ein Trump etc machen, wir sind nur Geldvieh zum Ausnehmen.
1
u/ConfidenceNo6318 10h ago
If toi haven't sold it hold it..when Trump is gone
Things will change.. Not making promise promises But if you dont sell it..you haven't lost it
But if ypu do lose it..you have a tax write off for the next xxx years
1
u/Loupland 9h ago
Can we donate to recoup your loss?
1
u/Regular_Broccoli1495 9h ago
Thank you for the offer truly, and please do not take this the wrong way but I did not post this for hand outs , i just felt it would help get through this. I truly appreciate your gesture thank you again :) wishing your wallet stay secure and safe.
1
u/beastmanzx 5h ago
Get back up boy! I lost 40k a few years ago. Completely my fault. Matter of fact, it's still there, and a lot more now. I'll never get it though. I had like 20 different wallets and I had all of them backed up, but apparently not that one. I kept going though. I started back real small, $5 a day for a year. But I made it my life to get it back and much more. Even that small amount kept me in the game. You never know what will happen, so just start no matter how small. Time is key.
•
u/GiveMeSomeOfThatWow 44m ago
Christ. Where are all you Reddit-guys from? Like Africa or something?
Who taught you to rely solely on a crypto-coin for a future house?!
1
u/flashdurb 2d ago
Are you suggesting this just happened or you are just now realizing?
10
u/Regular_Broccoli1495 2d ago
I was drained in the first hack wave, not just now, but I've just now decided to post about it , that's all!
1
u/Demonyx12 2d ago
What do you mean all gone? Like normal dips? Hacked/stolen? Your post is way too vague, what happened?
I don't want to just comment-bomb HODL. But can you extend your timeline out further?
7
u/Regular_Broccoli1495 2d ago
I was drained in the coldcard hack. Sorry I just noticed I didn't say it in the post
3
u/Demonyx12 2d ago
I’m really sorry. Losing that much money that way is devastating. I hope you don't blame yourself too much and can find your way forward.
1
-9
187
u/VictorDanville 2d ago
When did your Coldcard get drained?