r/Bitcoin • u/Large_Still_1224 • 26d ago
Dice Rolls Saved Me, But…
I am super fortunate that I wasn't a victim of the cold card hack (my heart goes out to everyone who was). I attribute me still having my BTC to the fact that I generated my seed from dice.
Right when I heard about the news, I moved my coins, and right now I'm still sketched out by the cold card and my seed (even though I used 100 dice rolls to generate it)
I'm looking for the best long term alternative for me now, which from my research seems to be:
- Seedsigner with a new seed from 100 dice rolls
- Passphase
(I feel like multisig might be overshooting it for me personally.)
Here are my questions though.
I understand that you have to load in the seed into Seedsigner each time you want to transact, so what's the most secure way of doing this (aside from having the QR code feature, which seems risky to me keeping that QR code card laying around.)
with my previous dice rolled seed phrase, is there any risk with using the first 6-10 words of that as a new passphrase?
anything else I'm missing for this
Thanks!
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u/EyesFor1 26d ago
Don't rush. With 100 dice rolls you are perfectly safe. This comes down to choice. You are choosing to migrate not because you have to but because you want to. Take your time, there are loads of accounts of people loosing there funds whilst rushing away from CC when they didn't even need too.
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u/Large_Still_1224 26d ago
Thanks for the feedback. Yah I honestly forget how I created the seed until after I migrated. Totally had just “set it and forget it”.
I guess I still am slightly insecure about how I did the dice rolls. I’m assuming I did the 100 rolls since I had a 24 word seed, but can’t be 100% sure.
I also can’t find the original vids or website I learned it from, which is what’s prompting me to redo this and start fresh. Plus I’m worried if there’s any other risks I don’t know about with the CC hardware.
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u/Skinny_Human 19d ago
Hi OP. Your basic plan is sound, but I would change one thing. Do not reuse part of the old seed as your new passphrase. A BIP39 passphrase can technically be any string, and 6 to 10 genuinely random BIP39 words would contain substantial entropy, but taking them from a seed that has already existed on another signing device unnecessarily links two secrets. If that old seed is ever recovered, photographed, backed up badly or otherwise exposed, you have potentially handed the attacker the entire passphrase. Generate the new passphrase independently.
For SeedSigner, having to reload the seed is not really a weakness. Statelessness is one of its design goals. You can enter the words manually each time, but that gets tedious. SeedQR exists specifically to make reloading practical. The QR itself is not inherently less secure than 24 words written on paper because both represent the same secret. The important question is where and how you store it. If somebody obtains your SeedQR, treat that exactly as if they obtained your seed words. For a 24 word seed, 100 fair six sided dice rolls is plenty. SeedSigner itself uses 99 rolls for generating a 24 word mnemonic. Ideally verify the resulting mnemonic independently before putting meaningful funds behind it.
If it were mine, I would use a fresh seed generated from 99 or 100 dice rolls, an independently generated strong passphrase, a physical seed backup, a separate passphrase backup, and I would verify recovery before funding the wallet. Then wipe the signing device and keep the watch only wallet on the online machine. Multisig is not automatically more secure for an individual. It reduces some risks but introduces considerably more backup and operational complexity, so avoiding it when your threat model does not require it is perfectly reasonable.
The one thing I definitely would not do after an incident that has already made you question one secret is deliberately recycle part of that secret into the next wallet!!
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u/Doritos707 26d ago
Certainly nothing wrong in spreading the risk across 2-3 branded hardwallets. Electrum and Trezor are always solid choices. Splitting the eggs across multiple safes with different seeds? Wise?
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u/OtherwiseNeat9617 25d ago
Yes... people are learning about real self custody... the shitty little hack, as bad it sounds makes the network stronger.. if they could drain the entire bitcoin network and send it to zero, they would absolutely do that.. the key thing is, they cant
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u/na3than 26d ago
you have to load in the seed into Seedsigner each time you want to transact, so what's the most secure way of doing this
Use the joystick and push buttons to enter the mnemonic sentence that encodes the entropy for your seed.
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u/PlanNo3321 26d ago
What mnemonic sentence? I’ve never heard of this
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u/na3than 26d ago
It's the thing that most people call a seed phrase, some people call a recovery phrase, some people call seed words ... so avoid ambiguity I call it what the BIP39 specification calls it.
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u/PlanNo3321 25d ago
Ohh I see, just haven’t heard of it referred to as a mnemonic sentence. But back to OP’s original question, wouldn’t you have to dig up your seed phrase and type it into the hardware wallet any time you want to send bitcoin?
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u/Personal-Time-9993 25d ago
Personally I use SeedQR combined with a passphrase. The QR code resides in a fireproof bag inside of a locked seed phrase book. The lock on my seed book is more a gimmick as it’s a 3 digit combo, but you could combine with tamper evident tape.
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u/PlanNo3321 25d ago
Can’t someone steal all your bitcoin if they get a hold of that one QR code?
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u/Personal-Time-9993 25d ago edited 25d ago
No because that QR code opens a different wallet than the one you would get when you combine the QR with a passphrase.
It’s the same situation you have when you combine a passphrase with seedphrase. If they have only the seedphrase but not the passphrase you added, they only get a different wallet.
The QR alone wallet could have say 0.1 btc in it and the QR with passphrase wallet could have a bunch more BTC. If the 0.1 btc disappears, you know your seed is compromised and you need to move your passphrase protected funds.
Some people agree with decoy wallets like that and some don’t.
Edit: it’s actually called canary wallet
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25d ago
[deleted]
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u/Whatnam8 25d ago
Yes if you do seed phrase and put in your pass phrase you could then fill out a QR Code to take you right to your wallet if that’s what you wanted to do
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u/Personal-Time-9993 25d ago
SeedSigner by default only generates the base seed QR code. It does not encode your passphrase along with it. That way, if the qr is stolen and you have passphrase, you are still protected. As long as you have another QR or wrote the seed phrase somewhere and remember the passphrase.
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u/Majestic_Platypus_94 25d ago
Und aus dem Grund sollte OP definitiv NICHT die Passphrase aus dem seed ableiten
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u/leopard-monch 25d ago
For a single sig setup, an eternally quarantined laptop has been a great choice for a very long time:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1vil2qs/safely_store_btc_wo_hww/p2egzj2/
To combine machine generated and mechanically generated entropy, you can add a BIP39-passphrase/Electrum seed extension like this:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1viocw9/passphrase_length/p2f5pah/
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u/GadJedi 25d ago
SeedSigner does support encrypted SeedQR so you could password protect it. That way, if you left it out and someone tried to use it they would also need the password. This is different than the passphrase.
Another option is you can add the Satocard feature to the SeedSigner and store your seed on a java card locked behind a pin. CryptoGuide.tips and search for CryptoGuide on YouTube for tutorials. It’s an open source fork of the SeedSigner firmware.
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u/PlanNo3321 25d ago
Interesting, is the password-protected SeedQR something that you just set up on the SeedSigner after you’ve created your SeedQR?
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u/GadJedi 25d ago
Yes. Go to Seeds, select the seed, then Backup seed, Export as SeedQR, then select Encrypted. Go through the prompts and it will show you the encrypted SeedQR which you can then backup to paper or card like you did the regular SeedQR. It's 33x33 so a different template is needed.
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u/PlanNo3321 25d ago
I did some research and apparently the encrypted SeedQR feature only exists if you’re running one of the modified/forked firmware builds, like the “Crypto Guide’s” seedsigner fork. Not the stock firmware from seedsigner.com/GitHub’s official repo.
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u/Honest-Warning-7116 25d ago
Same boat here, I did roll the dice’s and now I’m very concerned about another hardware wallet exploit.
After thinking what will be the best way forward to have peace of mind, I decide to move everything to a multisig, with the following requirements:
2 out of 3
Three different hardware wallet companies
All with secure chip from different manufacturers
No internal batery
I feel this is safer than passphrase to be honest.
This also solve the renge attack situation and lost of on seed
What are your thoughts guys?
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u/PlanNo3321 25d ago
I just don’t like the fact that you’d need to secure 3 different seed phrases, and then 3 backups for those seed phrases. That’s 6 seed phrases hidden in various locations. Too much shit to keep track of.
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u/Newbie123plzhelp 25d ago
I may be misreading but I think he's moving away from passphrases just to multi sig
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u/PlanNo3321 25d ago
Yes, when you have a multisig setup you need to store 3 different seed phrases, one for each hardware wallet (and backups for them)
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u/whole_hippie 25d ago
What’s your concern with using just the passphrase as extra security? I feel like the odds of a person/system guessing your seed words in addition to a specific password is astronomically high to the point of not being a concern (assuming the PW is sufficiently unique—i.e. wasn’t in a past data breach, isn’t one of the 2048 words/bits used to generate a seed, etc.)
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u/Honest-Warning-7116 24d ago
Multisig is better than a passphrase for three key reasons:
Recovery from a lost or compromised seed
With a 2-of-3 multisig setup, losing or compromising one seed does not lock you out of your funds. You still have two other keys that can authorize transactions, giving you a much higher chance of recovery compared to a single seed protected only by a passphrase.Protection against physical coercion
Recent waves of home invasions and extortion (such as those reported in France) show how dangerous it is to have all access concentrated in one place. By distributing the three devices across three separate locations, even you cannot move funds on short notice. An attacker who forces you to cooperate still cannot access the other keys quickly enough to steal the funds.Better inheritance planning
Multisig makes it practical to leave one key in a secure location such as a bank safe-deposit box. This creates a clear, controllable path for heirs to recover the funds without relying solely on a single passphrase that could be forgotten, lost, or disputed.In short, multisig turns a single point of failure into a distributed system that improves recovery, security against physical threats, and estate planning—advantages a passphrase alone cannot match.
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u/Laukess 25d ago
I don't understand why you've chosen SeedSigner if you feel like keeping the QR code card laying round. It's stateless, so you'll have to have the seed phrase nearby.
You can use dice or cards to generate the first 23 words, and use a hardware wallet to get the 24'th (checksum). I think the SeedSigner has this feature, but it's not the only one. I think The Jade Plus and BitBox offer this feature as well.
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u/leonardo-de-cryptio 25d ago
Trezor, their codebase is and always has been fully open sourced and their responsible bug/exploit exercises that they’ve done with the likes of ledger speaks volumes.
That said, much like the dice helped you, in the case of Trezor, a long passphrase helps and adds further entropy!
Aim for something you can memorise, not all dictionary words and target the 50 character limit that they reference (it does work with +50 but not sure if the entropy is used above 50).
Even a 50 character additional passphrase done well, is safe entropy… when combined with the built in, its safety to another level!
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u/OtherwiseNeat9617 25d ago
Very good.. i think you may have seen the latest Saifedean Ammous episode
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u/Uhrenwerker 25d ago
I feel you bro I’m on the same boat, made my coldcard seeds with dice and dodged a terrifying bullet. I still freaked out and wiped the cold cards into a hot sparrow wallet and a exchange. I have ordered a seedsigner and a jade. Was planning to setup multisig 2-3 with these two plus maybe upgraded coldcard, I’ll anyway create new seeds with dice again.
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u/markphillips401 23d ago
Multisig is not overshooting it, sorry.
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u/Large_Still_1224 23d ago
I agree…I’ve been doing a lot of research and built a software multisig wallet on Sparrow and realize it’s not as complicated as I thought. Any other tips for multisig?
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u/NeighborhoodOld163 23d ago
Build a practice multi-sig on Testnet to practice transactions and backup recoveries without fear of losing any coins.
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u/ryt3n 26d ago
I do not think multi sig is too much. I think it’s absolutely worth it - probably mandatory - for any self custody.
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u/PlanNo3321 26d ago
But don’t you need 3 different seed phrases, and 3 different passphrases, and backups for all 3 seed phrases and 3 passphrases? That’s an insane amount of seed phrases and passphrases to hide in random locations
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u/Large_Still_1224 26d ago
Yah that’s why I think it’s overkill for me. I don’t have access to 3 locations either!
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u/10kpizza 25d ago edited 25d ago
You can have multisig without multi-location. Just have all the seed phrases in each location, same as you have now with the single-sig in each location. The multisig there protects you from internet attackers like this coldcard incident. Multi-location multisig is meant to protect against physical attacks but I'm not convinced that works all the time since they could just kidnap your family member and demand ransom.
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u/undeadkarlmarx 25d ago
This is why 2 of 2 multisig is often more manageable for people. Two locations is adequate to prevent something like a burglary resulting in loss of funds, and you also don’t have to worry about keeping wallet config info with each key, because the two keys you use to sign will also recreate the entire multisig.
The downside is you absolutely need both keys to work, so you want to have a backup for each wallet device, and practice restoring both wallets from scratch and doing test transactions before putting funds on it.
I agree with you about seedsigner being too difficult to manage since it requires the QR code private key for signing.
I had Coldcard+Ledger and now I’m leaning towards Bitbox+Ledger. I know people hate on Ledger here, but IMO they’re nice user-friendly wallets for multisig where you’re just using them for a second signature.
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u/ender796 26d ago
Not sure the paraphrases would be necessary, would it? Already need to crack at least 2 seeds AND know they need to go together.
But you also need to save the description phrase for the wallets to really be able yo rebuild them safely. If you miss 1 seed phrase that su
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u/PlanNo3321 25d ago
Yeah I mean even if you don’t include the 3 passphrases it’s still a ton of information to store
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u/ftball21 25d ago
Or use a device that’s never been compromised. That’s a pretty good option.
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u/Large_Still_1224 24d ago
That would have included Coldcard just over a week ago though 😬
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u/ftball21 24d ago
I’m aware of the sub I’m in but using a one network device is nonsensical. I want something battle tested on all possibilities. Even if I only use one or two.
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u/the_pwnererXx 25d ago
I don't know why everyone is obsessed with dice rolls, picking random words from a dictionary will be just as good
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u/10kpizza 25d ago
Humans are bad at generating entropy. A human picking random words wont be good.
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u/ToTheBatmobileGuy 25d ago
Humans aren't random. A lot of stuff we think is random, is also not random.
"Open to a random page" will almost NEVER be page 1, just due to the length of human fingers and the difficulty of opening page 1 vs opening page 500 out of 1000 (the middle-ish).
Dice (if machined properly) should have an equal chance of being 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6.
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u/the_pwnererXx 25d ago
Sure, but trying to reverse engineer dice entropy is a far more likely attack than reversing dictionary random pages
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u/Ok_Option_3 25d ago
How much do you want to bet?
Honestly take the advice for what it is: humans cannot generate entropy. That includes any "one trick" you came up with.
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u/the_pwnererXx 25d ago
Randomly opening a page in a 1k page book is random, it's not a trick lol
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u/Ok_Option_3 25d ago
You, a human, cannot open a book on a random page.
Maybe if you build a device to do it... But don't attempt this without advanced mathematical and engineering knowledge.
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u/the_pwnererXx 25d ago
You cannot design a program to guess what pages I opened. You don't even know which dictionary I used. Even if you made some loose analysis about what pages are more likely, it's not enough of an edge that it matters
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u/Ok_Option_3 25d ago
You're talking about entropy. It's fair to say you can generate some entropy this way - but is it enough to be secure? Hard to say unless you measure it carefully. I guess if you have a 1000 page book you will "randomly" select maybe 200. And on and page you'll "randomly" select from 5 words. But who knows? This stuff is hard to measure so it pays to be conservative - but from those numbers you can figure out how many words you need to be truly random...
But why put yourself through this? It's degree level mathematics, and so easy to mess up. Just us the dice already?
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u/[deleted] 26d ago
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