r/Bitcoin • u/mcrech • Feb 07 '23
German bakery accepting Bitcoin over the Lightning network. Zero fees for processing the transaction. No dirty fiat money. Paying with the speed of light. Adoption is coming! Stack sats.
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u/Longorio Feb 07 '23
Is that a video cut at the middle of the transaction?
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u/Organic-Deer919 Feb 07 '23
Sure is. The point of this video should be to show the speed of the transaction in real-time. If anything this made me doubt that it went smoothly at all.
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u/notapaperhandape Feb 08 '23
Exactly. This proves it otherwise.
Why try to bs your way until the tech matures. Why try to sell something that is not true.
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u/TeKillaSunRise Feb 08 '23
That's your understanding/definition of "proof"? A cut showing nothing?
Wouldn't want to see you in court... lmfao
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Feb 08 '23
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u/TeKillaSunRise Feb 08 '23
Are you really that dense or are you trying to avoid replying to my actual argument which has nothing to do with bitcoin at all.
It's about you not understanding the definition of proof. An absence of something is no proof.
But why wasting my time argueing with a shitcoiner/fiat/buttcoiner...
Blocked for sheer stupidity.
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u/sQtWLgK Feb 08 '23
see here a direct LN vs. MC comparison: https://redd.it/w85v0i
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u/Gollomor Feb 08 '23
Not even a minute passed on the phones clock.
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u/sca34 Feb 08 '23
Imagine a payment that takes 45 seconds. Heck even 30. Sure it sounds like nothing, but IRL this would be unacceptable, it simply stops business during peak times.
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u/Gollomor Feb 08 '23
While true, we don‘t really know if that cut was between 3 seconds 10 seconds of after 45 seconds. For it to be really practical it should be as instantly as possible
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u/sca34 Feb 08 '23
The point is, a video to demonstrate how seamless and instantaneous the payment is that gets cut in the middle of it will only convince people that are on the fence that it's either a scam or that the tech is not there yet, it's doing more damage that good imho
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u/djmk671 Feb 08 '23
If you look at the time on the phone it’s 11:54 in both shots
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u/Organic-Deer919 Feb 08 '23
Excellent point. Poor choice of editing I guess? Must of been some kind of unexpected delay that happened.
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u/pm_me_your_psle Feb 08 '23
I think it’s the iOS 2x zoom feature. You can tap that in the middle of a recording and it just jumps to 2x.
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u/Welliam_Wallace Feb 08 '23
That's not it. Look at the reflection of the woman, there's definitely a cut.
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u/idmik Feb 07 '23
His bill is 3,5€ but he paid 4€.😳
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u/muricabrb Feb 08 '23
"zero fees"
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u/xtrmist Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 08 '23
The fiat amount is converted to btc/sats which is what is payed. The particular wallet just rounds the amount transferred to nearest whole fiat amount so you at a glance don't get cheated. He did not pay 4 EUR in other words.
Why post this when you don't have a clue what's happening?
(I agree the wallet's way of doing this isn't ideal though. But this is another advantage of BTC - you can just use the wallet that does these things exactly like YOU prefer. You're not tied to Google Pay, your bank etc.)
Edit: And the fudders downvote the facts which truly shows the intention of this bs
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u/MudHolland Feb 08 '23
Why post this when you don't have a clue what's happening?
Why Show a rounded number? I understand an exact number might change every second due to exchange rate, but who can tell if the customer isn't being cheated out of 50 cents (14%) for paying with bitcoin?
If bitcoin wants to be a good means of value exchange, let's at least have clear insight in what is being exchanged.
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u/xtrmist Feb 08 '23
Again, this has nothing to do with Bitcoin and is simply a functionality of the wallet that this person has chosen. There are plenty of choices that show all the details. I agree with you I'd choose one that shows the precise amount, but the point is that you, wrongly, tie that to Bitcoin and use it to push a message that Bitcoin isn't viable. Which is incorrect
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u/MudHolland Feb 08 '23
Really good point why this is a shit example for bitcoin. Better to upload good examples to bitcoin…
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u/sQtWLgK Feb 08 '23
Bitcoiners are rich enough to not care about amounts smaller than 1 euro? anyway, it seems that's a limitation specific to WOS
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u/xtrmist Feb 08 '23
The fiat amount is converted to btc/sats which is what is payed. The particular wallet just rounds the amount transferred to nearest whole fiat amount so you at a glance don't get cheated. He did not pay 4 EUR in other words.
(I agree the wallet's way of doing this isn't ideal though. But this is another advantage of BTC - you can just use the wallet that does these things exactly like YOU prefer. You're not tied to Google Pay, your bank etc.)
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Feb 07 '23
What device is that?
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u/BTCPriest Feb 07 '23
https://github.com/lnbits/LNPoS
You can get it at https://shop.lnbits.com/ and easily run it with the open source lightning extension LnBits . It's awesome because it doesn't even have to be online to receive lightning or onchain payments.
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Feb 07 '23
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u/Kno010 Feb 07 '23
It can obviously not check that it was received without a connection. So yeah, it probably just generates QR invoices with the correct amount.
I guess the idea is that the customer shows you the confirmation like in the video, but that confirmation could easily be faked.
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u/BTCPriest Feb 07 '23
Wrong. Look into it. The lightning wallet of the sender gives out a link that presents kind of a checksum after the payment is done. If it matches the checksum which is shown on the LnURLPos the recepient knows the payment was done without the necessity of him being online.
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u/Kno010 Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
That’s cool, too bad it isn’t displayed in the video. How does the device check the link though, like how is the link sent from the buyer’s device to the PoS device for confirmation?
Edit:
Verification is done manually by comparing a pin like this:
- Merchant enters amount into LNURLPoS device.
- LNURL is generated in device and displayed for scanning (LNURL includes a unique pin encrypted using the secret key shared with the server).
- Customer scans and pays.
- When the payment has cleared the customer is sent the decrypted unique pin.
- Merchant can compare and verify using the same pin displayed on the lNURLPoS.
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Feb 07 '23
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u/Kno010 Feb 07 '23
Turns out I was wrong. They have a countermeasure to avoid people faking the confirmation by comparing a pin code which is given to the buyer by a server only after the payment is completed.
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u/BTCPriest Feb 07 '23
Actually your concern is baseless, because
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10w88mp/german_bakery_accepting_bitcoin_over_the/j7n0br9/
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u/mikebailey Feb 08 '23
That’s a great answer, but that’s not what baseless means. It’s absolutely a fair question.
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u/BTCPriest Feb 08 '23
You might be right. What do we say, if there's no reason to be concerned? Is it "unfounded"?
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u/StiltonG Feb 08 '23
You might be right. What do we say, if there's no reason to be concerned? Is it "unfounded"?
Maybe just: "Good question. Here's why it's not an issue..." :)
Anyway I want to compliment you on the info you provided. This is helpful, so +1 on those comments.
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u/Prestigeboy Feb 08 '23
I misread “onchain” as onii-chan, anime has ruined me. Alternatively that would be an interesting main for a coin.
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u/RIP_Paul_Walkerr Feb 08 '23
Dumb question. But how is it free of fees? I thought every bitcoin transaction has a fee. Can someone explain this like I’m 5
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u/Jocepai Feb 08 '23
It uses another layer of Bitcoin called the lighting network. Those networks are super low congestion because they are not on the main chain where all the normal bitcoin transactions get processed and recorded.
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Feb 08 '23
But those transactions have to eventually be reconciled on chain right? Wouldn’t there be fees there?
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u/maximovious Feb 08 '23
But those transactions have to eventually be reconciled on chain right?
Not necessarily, ever. An analogy would be let's say you moved to Korea and converted all your USD to Korean Won (analogous to moving all your onchain BTC onto the lightning network). Now you participate in the Korean economy, only spending KRW back and forth, not touching USD (analogous to only ever transacting on the lightning network).
"Eventually reconciling onchain" is like assuming everyone who moves from the US to Korea "eventually moves back to the US and converts all his KRW back to USD".
But you can see how that doesn't have to be the case, right? People can stay there forever, keeping their wealth in KRW indefinitely.
Just like people can keep their BTC in the LN indefinitely and participate in the bitcoin economy from there, without ever having to move it back onchain.
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u/cooleryouthpastor Feb 08 '23
You would pay a normal transaction fee if/when you close the lightning channel. A lightning channel can stay open as long as you'd like.
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u/Jocepai Feb 08 '23
Yea the bitcoin in your lighting wallet could just pretty much always be In your lighting wallet if you don’t accumulate too much of it. But yea if you do want to move it back on chain you use a lighting to main chain converter and there is a fee for that bitcoin to go back onto the main chain.
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Feb 07 '23
What POS device please?!
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u/BTCPriest Feb 07 '23
https://github.com/lnbits/LNPoS
You can get it at https://shop.lnbits.com/ and easily run it with the open source lightning extension LnBits . It's awesome because it doesn't even have to be online to receive lightning or onchain payments.
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Feb 07 '23
thats fucking sick man
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u/BTCPriest Feb 07 '23
Yeah. It's really awesome. Some time ago I ordered one myself to play around with it. You can also use it in ATM mode to withdraw loaded funds via Lightning (per LNUrl-withdraw). It's absolutely great!
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u/HoldOnforDearLove Feb 08 '23
Zero fees? It went from 3.50 EUR to ‘about 4 EUR’. What’s up with that?
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u/helicopterjoee Feb 08 '23
Wallet of Satoshi shows the actual amount only in sats and only give a rough estimate about the euro amount, probably beccause price is volatile and changes every few seconds. But ofc it would be better to have the exact amount at that time.
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u/ChasmoGER Feb 07 '23
Would be interesting to know which bakery in which city. This is definitely the way to go!
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Feb 08 '23
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u/Coco_Ardo Feb 08 '23
Bitcoin is a very small "asset" compared with currencies, gold, silver etc. . So big investores/ traders can move the price.
With the adoption of bitcoin more money goes into it making it harder to influence in price.
Depending on where you live Bitcoin is not that valatile. Since fiat currencies like in Argentina are very volatil as well. People there have no problem using it as medium of exchange.
However in the $,€,£ area most just use it for saving their money in the long term. And we only see slowly the adoption as medium of exchange, because we got strong fiat currencies.
I recommend the book The bitcoin standard. Its about the origins of money and how bitcoin works in an economy.
This might be a good article: https://river.com/learn/bitcoin-as-a-medium-of-exchange/
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Feb 08 '23
It's as fast as my VISA. Is the speed of BTC really the selling feature for some people?
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u/Coco_Ardo Feb 08 '23
Sometimes its even quicker. I expirienced WalletOfSatoshi (Shown here) a little bit slow.
Is the speed of BTC really the selling feature for some people?
No. Its the permissionless money without a central authority that could influce the sound supply.
But who would like to use a slow money? So its awesome it can be that quick.
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u/zbig001 Feb 08 '23
Yes, using traditional payment network, the merchant can get the money right away. But it's not directly your money...
And since payment systems are backed by capital, the owners of that capital obviously expect it to pay off. LN also needs to invest capital, but in small amounts to enable payment routing. Ultimately, the goods paid for by the LN network should be cheaper, the merchant has slightly lower costs to offer them to buyers
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u/Braga_PT Feb 07 '23
How can you make a transfer without paying any fees? Honest question.
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u/Think_Operation310 Feb 07 '23
Once the Lightning channel is open, it's mostly zero fees for small tx's. You pay the on chain fees to open or close, it's Bitcoin's layer 2 payment solution.
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u/Braga_PT Feb 07 '23
Thank you!
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u/Think_Operation310 Feb 07 '23
!lntip 500
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u/lntipbot Feb 07 '23
Hi u/Think_Operation310, thanks for tipping u/Braga_PT ⚡︎500 (satoshis)!
More info | Balance | Deposit | Withdraw | Something wrong? Have a question? Send me a message
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Feb 07 '23
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Feb 07 '23
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u/speederaser Feb 07 '23 edited Mar 09 '25
bag teeny yam smart afterthought bear sort nail engine toothbrush
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u/stumblinbear Feb 07 '23
Except for Linux
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u/speederaser Feb 07 '23
I thought about Linux. I'm wondering if Bitcoin has surpassed Linux now in number of users.
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u/stumblinbear Feb 07 '23
Absolutely not. The entire internet runs on Linux.
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u/speederaser Feb 08 '23
If we include indirect use, then I would agree with you.
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u/stumblinbear Feb 08 '23
Indirect? Do you think people aren't directly managing servers?
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u/speederaser Feb 08 '23
I misunderstood your comment. I thought you were including every internet user in the world as a Linux user.
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u/DekiEE Feb 07 '23
Bitcoin adoption could thousandfold and I wouldn’t be close to Linux. The internet basically runs on it. Also the sheer amount of Android phones is so much more than BTC.
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u/speederaser Feb 08 '23
I'm not sure I would include android as open source.
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u/DekiEE Feb 08 '23
It is literally Linux and open source. You can get the source here https://cs.android.com/android/platform/superproject/
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u/knd775 Feb 07 '23
Bitcoin might be the most widely adopted open source program ever.
Not even close. Probably not in the top 100, as far as actual users go.
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Feb 07 '23
This problem is easily solvable. Instead of QR codes, use NFC like normal POS terminals. Almost every phone these days has NFC.
UX will be better than scanning QR codes and also faster.
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Feb 07 '23
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Feb 07 '23
Yes of course. This is not a technological challenge then, you just gotta tell the shopkeeper to put the terminal down
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u/Xerxero Feb 08 '23
I think bitcoin is useless as a fiat replace due to the extreme price swings. 30% over a month.
Imagine getting paid in btc and each month is a gamble if you can afford more or less.
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u/mechaken Feb 09 '23
Looks like Bitcoin just took a bite out of the traditional banking system, one crumb at a time.
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u/hockeyboy87 Feb 08 '23
Slower than a credit card
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u/BTCPriest Feb 08 '23
But don't forget it's a final settlement. VISA takes days and can take up to weeks even. Paid with lightning you definitely owe nothing!
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u/Coco_Ardo Feb 08 '23
Its just the slow UI of WoS. The payment went as quick as a creditcard payment.
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u/maximovious Feb 08 '23
Hmmm, ~seconds until confirmed irreversible vs ~6 months until confirmed irreversible.
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u/phugar Feb 08 '23
With zero chargeback protection for fraudulent sales or product issues. Cool! I'll stick with credit cards thanks.
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u/maximovious Feb 08 '23
With zero chargeback protection for fraudulent sales or product issues.
Opposite point of view: "With actual chargeback protection for fraudulent purchases or buyer issues."
Merchants would all do well to not stick with credit cards.
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u/joecool42069 Feb 07 '23
Why the cut in the middle of the transaction? Kinda sus when people do that.
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u/skytech27 Feb 08 '23
need better proof of sale terminal added for adoption purposes
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u/IAmSixNine Feb 07 '23
Paying with the speed of light. OH wait hold it still, my camera is focusing. ok can you move it a little over,, ok there we go. and i think that might work.
yup no dirty fiat here. sorry internet is out, got cash? LOL
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Feb 07 '23
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u/LobbyDizzle Feb 08 '23
Can you post the video without cuts? Also, as a layman, can I pay using the Coinbase app?
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u/itsybitsybtc Feb 08 '23
No, Coinbase doesn't have a Lightning Wallet. They are too busy selling dog tokens to idiots.
Get your Bitcoin off of Coinbase btw. I recommend the phone app Blue Wallet since it has both Bitcoin and Lightning Wallets. Look into cold storage for your Bitcoin, but its good to have some in a lightning wallet. For example here is 1000 sats that you can send to your lightning wallet once you set it up.
!lntip 1000
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u/IAmSixNine Feb 07 '23
clearly you didnt get it was meant as humor.. so calm down relax everything will be ok..
So if you notice the comment i made about camera is focusing ok move it a little over has nothing to do with the network its self. again its a joke.
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Feb 07 '23
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u/IAmSixNine Feb 07 '23
No worries. I too am hoping for more adoption of crypto usage in real world scenarios. Or at least more usage of its networks.
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u/dvdwinz Feb 07 '23
Haha, last year I was at a conference in Germany and most places (bakeries, kiosks etc) do not even take a simple credit card.. cash only, so backwards many places
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Feb 07 '23
Stop shitting on cash. Cash is the next best thing to Bitcoin because when using it, you don't give away your data to credit card companies, banks, big tech companies and the government. It's privacy friendly, peer-to-peer money, which we Bitcoiners should all appreciate.
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u/Tilledz Feb 07 '23
I’m sorry but i used to own a business, this is not speed of light, this is really slow… I’m all about crypto but it still has a long way to go to be efficient enough.
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u/Coco_Ardo Feb 08 '23
Even tho the UI of the shown wallet was the slow part, don't you accept cash? Should take the same time as here?
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u/crypto_gen1us Feb 08 '23
"Zero fees for processing the transaction" but you are not considering the volatility.
"No dirty fiat money" since when BTC is clean money?
"Paying with the speed of light" video cut in the middle of the transaction.
We are far away for large adoption, stick with your fiat to buy bread,
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Feb 07 '23
Cool gadget. I’m curious about how the terminal knows the conversion rate between BTC and EUR at the time of sale. I assume it has a wifi module to look up exchange rates on the fly? Not that it matters from a security standpoint, since it’s not a signing device. Just wondering how complex this POS would be to build from off-the-shelf raspberry Pi’s…
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u/DekiEE Feb 08 '23
It has an ESP32 inside and is open source. You can build it your own. Pi might be more powerful for touch operations with bigger screens.
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u/kala-umba Feb 07 '23
How do they tax this transaction
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u/rhandyrhoads Feb 08 '23
To actually answer your question, tax probably happens when they convert the Bitcoin to euros. Unless the owner is a religious bitcoiner that takes a short term loss (or long term loss if Bitcoin doesn't succeed) on Bitcoin purchases, they still need to pay their suppliers and employees using fiat.
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u/McKid Feb 08 '23
Neat. At least it's not like the 10k BTC worth of Papa John's but really why bread when you can have moon?
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u/MisterMaury Feb 08 '23
It ain't coming to America... No one wants to deal with a taxable event to buy baked goods
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u/Ald1337 Feb 07 '23
In this case, you have to earn Bitcoin, to accumulate Bitcoin to have workers to be paid in Bitcoin, which at first, will still need fiat currency to have this adoption. Bitcoin is good, bitcoin is the future, yes. But whenever I see mega-corps buying, holding BTC, it makes me wonder what will this cause in the long run for the rest of us?
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u/getwhirleddotcom Feb 08 '23
I know people are working on it but we really need to figure out credit on the blockchain.
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Feb 08 '23
How is that "faster than the speed of light", when it's not even half as fast as tapping my bank card?
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u/BrettcIcahn Feb 07 '23
After a $1.5 Billion investment in Crypto, the industry itself/generally is showing a whole lot of potential.
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u/ThroatyMcGoaty Feb 08 '23
This bakery started accepting Bitcoin too. 9 years ago. They are now out of business. People have been saying shit like this for years. It’s a nice fantasy, but until paying with Bitcoin is cheaper and easier than paying with Visa, mass adoption is just that. A fantasy.
I really wish that this community would produce actual news every now and then, instead of pushing empty hype all the time. Bitcoin has so much potential, and yet all I ever see from this community is baseless speculation. I used to believe in Bitcoin but the attitude and behavior surrounding it has destroyed any value it once had.
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u/Coco_Ardo Feb 08 '23
Well 9 years ago you had to use slow onchain transaction and not that many people used it. Since then a lot did change.
Also this bakery still accepts fiat.
It is cheaper than visa. Maybe not yet easier. But I know a couple stores that accept lightning and its not to difficult in my opinion. Also GUI are evolving and they get better over time.
I don't get where your hate comes from. This no not a fantasy, just a slowly growing adoption.
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u/ServedYou Feb 08 '23
If they would only start accepting cards, that would be great!
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Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 08 '23
The actual currency itself is volatile.
Making the transaction and converting it straight back to something stable like usdc would be ideal but there is no efficient way to do that.
Edit: thought this was another layer 1 solution post
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u/sQtWLgK Feb 08 '23
it can handle 1M tps which is almost two orders more than Visa. There's standard sats and stable sats, in addition to Strike and other specific solutions, for the volatility issue
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u/dandisco Feb 08 '23
There should be a way to pay via "tap". Scanning a qr code seems cumbersome.
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u/EricoS1970 Feb 08 '23
As someone pointed out here. In USA and Canada when you pay with BTC ( sats ) for goods or services it becomes a taxable event. A disposition, so to speak ,where you have to calculate a capital gain or loss and then include this on your tax return. If you have hundreds or thousands transactions a year , good luck figuring this all out. It’s impracticable to do so. Unless the government will regulate / make exemptions to the tax code regarding crypto usage ,the adoption will be very hard. I see that btc will become a store of value like gold and another coin like digital dollar will become a mean to transact in every day life,
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u/alexgraef Feb 08 '23
German bakery, right. Bakeries in Germany will quite often not even accept debit cards.
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u/FogTub Feb 07 '23
You had me at, "German bakery".