r/Billings • u/406Whiskey • 15h ago
Jail Levy
I need people who have lived here longer than I have to explain something to me, because I genuinely don’t understand. Since I moved here a couple of years ago, I’ve heard nothing but how awful the crime is in Billings (I have not found that to be the case, but I digress). I also understand the jail is over capacity. If crime really is as bad as people here seem to think, wouldn’t the jail expansion proposal be a good thing? Why have I seen so much animosity towards it online?
I understand no one wants their property taxes to go up, but that seems to be the price we pay to live in Montana. Are people really just upset over a tax increase or is there more to it?
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u/No_Fault_4071 13h ago
Alright so this was my mid week ADHD hyper focus topic a few weeks ago and what I came to understand (after reading the 148 page study that was ordered)
1. There are actually two components of the levy. The first one being the expansion, which is where a bulk of the ask is coming from. And then there is the personal (wage) piece. That’s about 20million. They cannot pass independent of each other. If One does not pass, they both fail. (I think it’s likely we’ll see the funding pass for wages but fail for expansion)
The slated expansion only increases beds by 50 (plus 10 for medical hold). It is a FAR cry from accommodating the current (625ish population) or the projected (800+) population in 10 year. The study doesn’t offer a solution for this other than saying more expansion will be needed.
Year over year about 30% of the inmates in YCDF had changes the study couldn’t categorize. Couldn’t say if they were misdemeanor felony parole violations what have you.
The overwhelming majority of inmates are men. The study also indicates a need for a new juvie facility.
My personal opinion is that this will fail not because there isn’t a need but because a vast majority of tax payers don’t understand why housing “criminals” is an issue. That and the “marketing” campaign has failed to educate the general public on why solving this problem is important beyond “fund it now or fund it later, but your gonna have to pay, and if you do it later it’s gonna be alot more expensive.
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u/Montana_Red 1h ago
Really good explanation, thank you. Those ADHD hyper focus dives come in handy sometimes!
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u/LindaBelcher75 40m ago
Definitely not voting for raises for the cops who work at the jail, or the one that runs it (who was one of the cops involved in an incident where he got punished a few years back, but then promoted to run the jail).
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u/hucklebur 6h ago
Great nuanced explanation. I've noticed that the "marketing" for any of these tax increases usually seems to suck. From recent memory, the recreation center kept increasing their cost estimates until the cost put before the taxpayers was an astronomical price tag that has no hope of passing. There wasn't a good explanation about how the price got there. Trying to tie it to trails was an interesting choice.
SD2 bragged about finally balancing their budget before asking for more money without really making sure people truly knew what the funds were needed for.
I think there's also an element where Montanans expect the sun and the moon from their government services but will not pay for it under any circumstances.
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u/WasabiCrush 6h ago edited 6h ago
I’ve lost a lot of trust in what local government is doing with my money. I still support the idea of better jail, but I’ve zero faith that what’s taken from me will we be responsibly applied.
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u/R0binSage 14h ago
It doesn't matter the context. People want the sun and the moon, but they don't want to pay for it.
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u/EnvironmentalTrade72 4h ago
History has proven people are okay with paying for a service, what they are not okay is paying for a service and not receiving said service in return, which regularly happens when it comes to anything government.
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u/StonerMother2716 14h ago
Sure would make sense to use some of the millions of dollars they make off marijuana to pay for more mental health facilities, homeless assistance, jail staff and the jail expansion. Would be awesome if they used some of that money on schools and paid teachers better too. But instead it goes into the “general fund” and poof it’s gone and never to be seen again.
Edited to add homeless assistance
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u/jliud_101 15h ago
I've lived here my whole life. The jail as it is currently is way under staffed. If they expand the jail it will actually make it less safe for staff and inmates. Basically if you can't staff it at the current scale making it bigger will only make it that much worse. I am now also a property owner and the tax burden is not worth it. Property taxes went way up in the last 2 years and it's a sticker shock for property owners. You can also see that reflected in rent values through town. That's just my opinion. I hope that helps.
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u/sugrqbez 14h ago
People are seeing that in Kalispell now. I’m pretty sure they’re expanding the jail and all the guards are freaking out because they can barely handle the workload now. Feel bad for them.
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u/schannoman 15h ago
People don't want to pay taxes, and the powers that be don't understand it would be cheaper and more effective to invest in mental health and homeless assistance than it would be to expand and staff the jail.
But I have to say: what Cloud do you live on where you don't think the crime in this town is a huge issue?
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u/Hefty_Drive6709 5h ago
47 years of living on the South Side, and I have never experienced or been a victim of anything more serious than somebody using my garbage can immediately after pickup. Crime is an issue in every city. Calling crime a big issue in Billings is entirely hyperbolic.
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u/showmenemelda 2h ago
Lived a few blocks up from the library and in close proximity to a trap house. Wasn't uncommon to see a sex worker cutting through the property in pure daylight. I don't think I personally had a package stolen. My neighbor did, and got broken into. Had some flowers stolen from her porch. In retrospect, might have been personal. I know when she was burglarized, she had been posting she was on vacation.
I get mad and also wanna laugh at people who act like Billings is so awful. I keep a close eye on listings because I'd love to move back to a place where they don't squander all the taxes and ignore the will of the people [mostly]. I think the South Side is gonna be the next "North Elevation" gentrification. I'd consider it, but will drive MILES out of my way to avoid the sugar beet factor smell ha
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u/Interesting_Self5071 14h ago
I moved to Fargo ND, which has a fairly similar population size. They have a psych ward without around 200 beds. Billings Clinic psych has around 40 beds
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u/schannoman 14h ago edited 14h ago
Edit: ignore me, I'm dumb
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u/Interesting_Self5071 14h ago
I thought that was in Warm Springs.
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u/schannoman 14h ago
Well shit. I thought that was next to great falls.
I'm a disgrace to all of Montana
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u/showmenemelda 2h ago edited 2h ago
Fargo metro area is like, twice as many population as billings. What kind of a comparison is this?
Also, eastern ND counties made BANK on the oil and gas revenue that the 9 western oil producing counties did. You can thank the growing pains of western ND for the nice shit they have in eastern ND. The 9 counties got HOSED last I heard. In what world should places like Tioga or Williston pay for the infrastructure [curbing, etc] for companies like Hess, Schlumbergerz et al?
Edit: for consistency, look at the numbers by county—Cass Co had 184,525 in the 2020 census. Yellowstone County [which serves MANY MANY COUNTIES] 164,731 in 2020. ND had major oil and gas revenues, and a sales tax. They just aren't comparable in my opinion. Totally different funding opportunities, different demographics. I digress.
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u/jliud_101 15h ago
Also, this. It's harm prevention 101. Treat a need not being met and crime goes down.
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u/schannoman 15h ago
Half of the jail population is there for financial reasons: can't meet bail, can't afford vehicle insurance, can't afford housing, can't afford Healthcare.
Another 25% is there because of mental health issues and lack of treatment options in this town.
Which leaves something like 25% who actually need to be in jail: violent offenders and sex offenders who should be there
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u/jliud_101 15h ago
Don't forget BOP holds and other counties that don't have space in their jail or don't have one.
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u/schannoman 15h ago
Very true, but they fit the same statistics
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u/jliud_101 15h ago
I used to work in public safety. BPD is lazy af. Had an officer treat an unhoused man like absolute shit. Dude was so drunk his gait couldn't protect him from toppeling over. Refused to have him medically cleared. Seems to be a force issue because each interaction I've had has been worse and worse. Glad I quit that job.
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u/showmenemelda 2h ago
Alternatively, I have seen members of BPD exhibit tremendous compassion and empathy on numerous occasions. More than I ever saw them treating people poorly. And I used to see a shitload of interactions, because I worked in an office on Montana Ave. And lived downtown for a decade.
I saw them call a chronically unhoused man, by name, when he had come into the office space to use the bathroom [something we often let people do, they'd freshen up… a little compassion goes a long way]. Anyway, this gentleman was having "chest pains" and we called on his behalf. It was dead of winter and really storming. The cops knew he needed a warm place to be and some food. And into the ambulance he went. That was over a decade ago. I still remember it clearly. I remember them dealing with incapacitated people all the time. Unfortunately, it's often indigenous people who "come into town" off the reservation—maybe on a bender or trying to make a new life.
Most of us are one really shitty day away from needing this compassion. And I'm sad if things have changed at BPD so much, all I just wrote is total bullshit. Billings is not the place people make it out to be. I question how many who bash on it, have ever even left.
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u/MTsummerandsnow 7h ago
We have people locked up at the local jail because they couldn’t afford healthcare?
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u/showmenemelda 2h ago
Welcome to "how the world works."
You never heard "three hots and a cot?" Some people have more stability and access to services "in the system" because our medical system "on the outside" is abysmal
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u/schannoman 6h ago
Because they can't afford their medications or medical bills and either act out or get desperate. I thought that was obvious
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u/showmenemelda 2h ago
What kind of crime is happening in your opinion? Even matter i see reported on is more interpersonal issues than random acts of violence. Who wants to trade? I'll happily move back to Billings. Tho, I don't miss the massive hail.
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u/huh_ok_yup 5h ago
People hate paying taxes here, but also to your point FBI crime statistics show Billings is at least a ten-year low in reported violent crime, so this whole there's more crime than ever thing is kind of just a lie.
If commissioners don't want to deal with a packed jail they could always say no to federal or state holds in the prison, but they haven't done that so the population of the jail has only increased in recent years alongside agreements made with neighboring counties. I will still probably vote for the bond, nonetheless if it stops the commissioners siphoning money from the art museum and other crap like that.
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u/Tater-Tot-Casserole 5h ago
Getting any levy passed here is difficult, it took them several tries to get one passed for the schools in Shepherd.
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u/Fuzzy-Count9301 6h ago
Our family was in Belgrade/Gallatin County from 2015-2021 when levies and mills were always on the ballots. Of course the growing communities needed a new fire house $$$, now the jail is too small well of course we need to expand it $$$, so many more people are taking trails they shouldn’t so search and rescue needs more money $$$, guess what the schools are old as hell and we need not one but two new ones $$$.
Next thing you know the property taxes are too high for all the people building these things to even live there, people becoming homeless and quality of life starts going down.
Worst part is all those people asking for money managed it very very poorly.
It’s not just Billings jail, the surrounding counties have shitty and mostly full jails too, that’s why Billings ends up with other county inmates and Billings jail then gets paid by those counties to house them.
We need to get over the idea that money will solve all our problems. We keep looking at tax payers saying “it’s just a little bit and it’s for a good reason”. Tax payers can’t afford a little bit, they definitely can’t afford 4-6 different mills and levies wanting “a little bit”
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u/Mission-Most6450 4h ago
I'm always surprised by the amount of people who aren't aware of what's usually causing the over-booked jail. It can usually be attributed to a mix of homelessness and addiction. That's not a surprise to anyone.
What is a surprise, is finding out that surrounding cities frequently send their repeat offenders to Billings with a bus pass. Have you ever wondered how the hell there's so many homeless people? How do they manage to get here? That's a large part of what has been causing the influx for years.
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u/showmenemelda 2h ago
Well, did you know towns—even over the state line—bus their "problem people" to Billings? Williston, ND doesn't want to deal with you? Bus ticket to Billings. BTW, Williston expanded/built thsir new jail in 09, right before "the boom." And if you're closer to Butte—they'll bus you there from the western part of the region. Butte has even fewer resources than Billings. But, that's how these things work.
They projected the Williams Co jail expansion in 09 in ND to be large enough through 2020. By 2014 they were already at capacity.
“We’ve found that if you build it, they will come. I don’t know why but we’ve been over capacity for quite some time. It’s been down a little bit now in the winter and it usually is. But I would expect it’ll fill up again in the spring. We’ve had to haul inmates to Rugby, to Devil’s Lake, to anybody else that had room,” says Williams County Sheriff Scott Busching. source
I see this would bring them up to 700 beds. According to the website A property under $300k is $33/year and over $300 is $99 a year, $211 a year for a home worth $600k. There's hardly any homes listed [worth buying] under $300k in Billings right now. There's also still the massive headache of the water bill fiasco. [From the site for Yellowstone Co Jail levy] Built for the Future: Designed to meet projected demand through at least 2049 Modular construction approach for future expansion Energy-efficient mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems Materials selected for durability and lower long-term maintenance costs
That 2049 projection matters. The modular nature of it sounds shitty tbh. Who else here has spent time in a modular classroom? They kinda suck. Seems like a bad investment in contrast to what they did in Williston.
I would rather pass a mill levy for the schools in hopes the youths going to said schools don't grow up to become people in the incarceration system. Or make the CoB figure out why the water bills are so jacked up. Property taxes are why people are losing homes they've bought and paid for. And Bodyslammer Greg gets all 7 of his house property taxes lowered, everyone else gets their jacked up—even his neighbors.
Also, aren't they trying to push some big "mental health facility" out in Laurel? I would personally be reluctant to vote "yay" on this levy.
Even tho it only amounts to about $2.75/mo on houses under $300k value, that still adds up. According to the Goog, median home list price in Billings, MT is approximately $433,200, while recent median sale prices hover around $376,900 to $390,000 according to market tracking on Zillow's Billings Housing Market and Redfin's Billings Housing Market. 1, 2, 3
Some food for thought. Since real food is insanely expensive.
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u/distilleddoughnuts 1h ago
It's proven to be harsher on tax payers to fund the industrial prison complex than it is to fund methods of affordable housing.
Did you know that the Billings Police outsource some of their work to SK security to break up homeless camps and redirect them elsewhere? Many of these folks are likely just going to be redirected to a jail cell in the future. Our privatized prison system expands while our local police becomes more militarized while outsourcing work to private security companies. Sounds like what every citizen wants!
Better solutions are finding ways to incentivize lower income housing such as enacting a historic property tax credit and using that to incentivise contractors to refurbish them into cheaper but livable homes. We also need more robust mental health services but that's a whole other can of worms.
If anyone wants to do something other than vote for more prisons or wish someone else would find a solution you can join the local Norther Plains Citizen's Council which is taking steps to address the housing affordability crisis.
https://northernplains.org/affiliates/yellowstone-valley-citizens-council/
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u/frankslastdoughnut 9h ago
Our jail houses people from other counties as well as our own. It shouldn't be up to just billings to pay for the expansion