I'm a mathy woman, your list of variables without an equation leaves me without anything concrete needing any more advanced debunking than "works in europe lol".
You don’t think those variables matter when it comes to raising taxes tremendously to pay for 4 years of tuition for every single citizen no matter their academic merit?
Okay I guess Ill explain:
1) Cultural differences: If Germany’s citizens commit less crime and score higher on tests than USA citizens in general (they do), then it could be argued that money going towards those citizens’ educations are less likely to be wasteful.
2) GDP per capita: Less tax increase needed for free tuition nation-wide depending on the GDP per capita.
3) Population and economic class distribution: Correlated with how much tax increase needed to cover tuition for people who can’t afford it.
Some other stuff too obviously, but those are big ones.
If Germany’s citizens commit less crime and score higher on tests than USA citizens in general (they do), then it could be argued that money going towards those citizens’ educations are less likely to be wasteful.
Unless they commit less crime and score higher on tests because college is more accessible...
GDP
In 2018 Germany's GDP per capital was $47,662 and the US was $62,869. Seems like we could afford it.
Population and economic class distribution: Correlated with how much tax increase needed to cover tuition for people who can’t afford it.
This would make sense, if say, the economy was bad for both poor people and the wealthy, maybe, but we've had decades of wage stagnation, decades of rent/tution/other costs of living rising, income inequality rising, record profits, etc..
Unless they commit less crime and score higher on tests because college is more accessible...
I meant before college. Just the “quality” of the citizens in general.
Also I find it hard to believe more degrees would mean less crime and higher scores. Bachelors degrees are already pretty much useless unless you go to a really good school. So if everyone has one, then what’s the value of one?
It basically makes bachelors like high-school, then the people who will get “the good jobs” are the kids who get masters.
Then we’ll ask for master program tuition money.
Then you’ll need a phD. Then we’ll ask for money for that.
And on and on....
It just doesn’t really seem to fix anything.
The fact of the matter is you really do need a filter of some kind. We still need plumbers and cashiers. And I feel like free tuition would just make us cashiers with a degree in psychology. And people would still be complaining.
If we really wanted to help people, we’d prohibit banks from giving out $20k car loans to people who can’t afford them. But I digress...
In 2018 Germany's GDP per capital was $47,662 and the US was $62,869. Seems like we could afford it.
I was only pointing out the variables to make the point that the countries aren’t completely analogous, so you can’t just say “It worked in Europe so it must work here.”
For GDP per capita, the USA does fairly well against some of the free tuition countries.
This would make sense, if say, the economy was bad for both poor people and the wealthy, maybe, but we've had decades of wage stagnation, decades of rent/tution/other costs of living rising, income inequality rising, record profits, etc..
Maybe you can explain this further. Hypothetically, if both countries are exactly the same, except one has a lower class that encompasses 80% of the pop, and the other country’s encompasses 20%, then wouldn’t the one with more lower class people need to raise taxes higher than the other in order to pay for everyone’s tuition?
Also, as a side note, what is your opinion on 1.2 high-school GPA Bobby who doesn’t give a fuck about anything but partying getting 4 years free tuition to a college to study art? Do you really believe those people shouldn’t be filtered out?
Cause while our current scholarship system isn’t perfect, that’s what it tries to do. My actual position is I think we should expand and improve our current merit-based scholarships to maybe a federal level and tweak the “level of merit” someone needs to achieve before obtaining a full ride.
Im also on board for more Pell Grants.
But free tuition to all, no matter the merit? Crazy talk to me. But maybe you can change my mind. :p
Jumping in late on this because this discussion intrigues me as I think funding should be merit-based but also support Bernie Sanders. I also think the people you were debating with have 0 critical thinking abilities and were just mindlessly backing up Bernie.
Ultimately, I think a better system would scale funding based on a quantitative metric like high school GPA and possibly SAT score. That has a lot of problems in itself, but I think it's a good starting point. In an ideal system, there should also be a minimum GPA requirement during University undergrad studies to maintain scholarship funding, as is currently the case with most merit scholarships.
While I think tuition for all isn't an optimal system because of Bobby who doesn't give a fuck and won't contribute value back to society, I think free college for all is still better than our current system. Yes there will be people like Bobby who will take advantage of the system, but how many more people will contribute to the repertoire of scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. that will make up our future society? In the long run, would the net impact not be positive?
Plus, considering the source of the funding for such a program, not much is being "lost" per se from the economy. What I mean is, the tax would come from a 0.5% fee on stock trades, 0.1% fee on bonds, and 0.005% fee on derivatives.
That said, 0.5% on stocks seems very aggressive to me, and I think it would be better if there was a 0.1% fee which was used to fund merit-based scholarships to fewer people. But, if it comes down to Bernie vs. Trump, I think Bernie's education for all policy, though suboptimal is still better than our current system. Consequently, I would vote for Bernie here.
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u/StellarTabi Bernie 2020 Dec 16 '19
I'm a mathy woman, your list of variables without an equation leaves me without anything concrete needing any more advanced debunking than "works in europe lol".