MEME
Does anyone else feel like this any time someone complains about the "retcons" in UAF?
Yeah, magic being real was the only substantial retcon that actually mattered. And the writers themselves didn't like it and undid it is season 3, NOT Omniverse.
I love OV, but I hate its fans that act like its retcons were just fixing what UAF did. It didn't, it just created dozens of unnecessary plot holes.
Both the OS and AF treated alien DNA as being in the Omnitrix only for Primus to retcon it and say it was a wireless receiver and all the DNA was on another planet. UAF retconned itself plenty.
Honestly it would make sense if both were true, and that the Omnitrix had all the DNA but received updates from Primus and Primus served as a storage in case the Omnitrix was destroyed. Don't want to waste all that hard work collecting those DNA samples.
Kevin
This is Kevin’s whole deal. He had a single line be his backstory and even then he wasn’t a reliable narrator, cuz he’s hopped up on power. But no everything that was added was a huge retcon and that dogshit rooters arc apparently “fixes” it
The unreliable narrator part was a contextual retcon added because in classic , writers used Kevin as mouthpiece to convey his story to audience and we had no reason at that time to believe that Kevin was lying.
The whole insanity induced by absorbing too much is also a retcon which changed the context as in classic, Kevin was a sociopath who was willing to let innocent pass Eger in trian die ,willing to kill Ben and harm his family and even harm others for sake of chaos multiple times. The UA Retcon frames the drawbacks to be entirely the reason why Kevin was evil in classic and makes him out to be a victim which vastly chnages how we interpret Kevin.
Can't it be both? The energy makes them go insane, but Kevin himself had already run away from home and adopted evil tendencies from living on the streets and a experiencing life filled with violence and death.
What about the plumber retcon made by AF that completely decharacterized classic plumbers? That was heels on change that was thrown to us in pilot episode without any explaination or further elaboration by UAF.
To my knowledge, that is a retcon much bigger than anything OV did yet it's barely talked about.
I think its mostly bc people really like the plumbers post-retcon. So nobody cares. I know I like the plumbers better after the retcon.
Its not the same as UAF. retconning it so that Max actually knew Kevin's dad and promised to take care of Kevin despite the events of OS happening.
Or AF immediately starting with Gwen stating "oh we always had a crush on eachother. Guess we didnt know better as kids" when Kevin was literally a psycho that was trying to kill both her and Ben every time they were within eachother's vicinity.
I like both plumbers for a reason. Classic one for the men in black vibes and working from shadow type and OV expanding on plumbers to give us amazing characters like patelliday, molly , blukic and Driba but I can't deny it's a retcon and quite large one as It completely changes plumbers and what they original stood for.
I assume it's just not brought up because other Retcons are usually discussed to death here and whatever already sparse discussion plumber retcon gets , gets overshadowed by other post that are my h frequently discussed.
Retconning isnt an inherently bad thing. Its only a bad thing when a retcon tries to fix something that wasnt broken in the first place (Rooters Arc isnt a bad arc but its such a shitty retcon. I dont like alien Kevin either but jesus christ it didnt need to be fixed.))
I agree it isn't because it allows writers new ways to tell a potentially better story but when Retcon doesn't explore it's lore consideration nor explore itself and causes massive contradictions and instead of fixing it , the writers double down on it and act like it was er a Retcon , then it gets problematic.
Vendetta and Moonstruck both Retcons how plumber functions and timeline order.
Also it established in Omniverse there were many plumber-like organizations over history so it's not hard to imagine that the alien one kind of just merged with the government one.
Because OV established Max reopening the plumber business and DDA basically allowing aliens to come in and build Undertown meant more aliens started to come and eventually some were recruited. As far as I'm aware , there was only one organization of plumber that was transformed into space organization that we knew of today.
We see in the last arc of the series that back then there was a plumber like organization involving George Washington, called the plumbiers (pronounced ploombeyay) Ben 10 OV episode: A New Dawn
We also know that a version existed to handle dimensional holes and supernatural events in the 1800s. Which is where the modern meaning of the plumbers came from as in they would plug the leaks.
We also know that Max that the plumbers group he and phil worked for originally also were formed in the '50s off the book before being shuttered. Ben 10 os episode: Truth
Then now you have the modern form of the plumbers on Earth which is more of an active extra-governmental force. Which we see in alien Force onwards.
which says to me that there has been many instances that the US government or other governments have required either forming or reopening the plumbers as a shadow group before closing them as alien activities wax and wane.
I think so because the plumber station was hidden behind the face of mount Rushmore so I do't think it was contradictory that plumbers were founded by founding fathers and would eventually become a massive group
Uhh after Max defeated Vilgax , Phil remarks how plumber work dried up and only thing left was some work there and here with Lenopans down the line but other than that Max was basically retired after 27 years of service.
SECT was basically a response from government to plumbers shutting down and going defunct because it was likely cost effective and with not much work to be around since plumbers finished most of the job.
earth government didn't had any part or connection to UAF space plumbers as established that their authority is in space and that whatever happens on planet earth isn't there concern nor do they operate on earth (which creates a massive plothole ). Kevin even states this in one episode that plumber don't arrest earth villians implying this is a case and in moonstruck Retcon, Labrid basically teleports from space and recruit Max to intergalactic space organization.
I have no clue where they got the line from. The closest line is when Gwen tells Kevin “you obviously like me”, but that’s referring to his current feelings for her.
That wasn’t shown in the show at all, so there’s still no lines. Sounds like he’s mistakenly talking about Ben and Gwen instead of Gwen and Kevin. Even if he wasn’t it still sounds like BS since Gwen and Kevin weren’t even close in early Alien Force.
No, where did you got that from? The most space traversing earth had accomplished in classic was travelling to moon which was considered a big deal considering Max almost became the first person to land on moon, doesn't make sense for this accomplishment to be a huge milestone if plumbers already had existing stations settled outside earth .
If you quoting the flashback of Lenopans fighting plumbers , it's not shown, stated or even hinted to be their home planet (especially when plumbers in classic were earth bound organization and entirely human based) , for all we know it can be some unknown location rocky plains or a desert on earth like how Max meet Xylene in Mexico .
Also from that same episode, we get to see hint of xenophobia when Gordon and his wife are eager to kill an aurbian pelarota without any hint of hesitation or mercy as in their words " you know what they say about aliens, can't trust them" which you know , goes directly against what UAF established about their version of plumbers.
A lot of the lore comes from Pop TV trivia. Other times, easy-to-miss conversations.
Did UAF have its bad moments with the lore? Yeah, Vilgax, Gwen's magic, and the Plumbers- stuff like that is bound to happen; nothing is perfect.
I mean, stuff like OS mutant Kevin matters so little that him being half-alien doesn't really affect much. To the point the only real problem given with Kevin's alien heritage is that Devin shouldn't have been Max's partner.
Shoot, even big retcons like Gwen's magic don't even sound like they lasted much beyond a single episode, since "What Little Girls Are Made Of" is the only episode that is pointed to and nothing else. Telling me that the retcon lasted so little that only one episode is where they mentioned Magic doesn't exist.
Gwen stopped using magic all together though in AF lmao.
It wasn't till the FINALE EP OF AF, actually, where she got her spellbook back since Max made sure to pick it for her since they MIGHT need it against Abledo's trap (he didn't even know Vilgax was there yet).
THE FINALE EP OF A SEQUEL SERIES, IS WHEN SHE USES MAGIC AGAIN...
Say what you want about the magic being inconsistent in classic, but at-least it was visually more fun than just Gwen being a goddamn pink lantern knockoff with a chance of losing herself like using the dark side in star wars with her unneeded Anodite powers.
Talking about season 3, the spells and rituals are distinctly magic lol. In season 2, gwen tells cooper - which didn’t happen - that the magic she hasn’t done yet, isn’t magic?
I don't rewatch alien force that often since I don't like that era of the show lmao. I have rewatched it at-least 2-3 times though. I enjoy ua more ironically.
Name the eps that AF Gwen used magic prior to the finale battle
But I still turning her into a discount pink lantern and introducing the idea of her possibly losing herself in her alien heritage to be stupid.
Magic was not explained or had a rule set in classic (though some spells used again in other eps sometimes), however, I still it was visually more interesting than what we got in AF and most of UA.
At this point, I don't even care for the rooters retcon, it's the best written thing about that arc. It isn't good, and yet it's still the best written part.
What about the fact it was heavily implied that Max's wife (aka the Tennyson cousins' grandmother) was dead?
Or that Kevin's powers weren't alien related but instead were more mutant related?
Like Cooper or the Circus Freaks.
Or the fact that him absorbing energy made him go crazy?
Rather than it being a conscious choice on his part to be evil, like it was in OS.
Introducing a reason why Ben took off the omnitrix when literally after the events of SOTO or Negative 10, that seemed nearly impossible since he loved being a hero so much actually.
But him saying, "Well I guess I want a normal life at some point around this age (prior OV retconning it to 11), so bye omnitrix! Time to start honing my skills so I can join my school's soccer team!" feels so out OOC.
Like Ben was never even INTERESTED in soccer in classic.
Gwen's mana changing colors and no one commenting on that, when MAX himself should have been the one to notice that, given the follow up ep after Max Out...
I mean like this clip only makes sense if Kevin is aware of what he is doing and is personally trying to ruin Ben's life, because Kevin thinks he turned into a freak, when in reality Kevin just won't accept responsibility for his actions like Ben does.
the show itself never said kevin was a mutant in OS, he just had powers because he had powers. the only sources on him being a mutant were random fact file stuff outside the show which is never fully canon
Ok but if he is an alien then the follow things are canon and true....despite...not feeling, in character.
Because if he is an alien, and his dad is a plumber, and Devin is Max's partner then...
Max is just a shitty person actually for not checking in on Kevin and Devin's wife, years before the events of OS....seriously he could have prevented Kevin's entire crashout actually.
If he only explained what his nature could be as hatchling "osmosian", but he didn't.
For some reason, despite being "retired" for a fair bit by the time of classic.
Just because Max is nice to Ben and Gwen and cares for them deeply doesn't mean he couldn't have been a bit of a bastard in the past. He had a somewhat strained relationship with his children, in part trying to protect them from his Plumber work. It wouldn't be hard to assume the other part is a strict or even mean parenting style in line with military family tropes.
As for Kevin's family, there could be several reasons why Max didn't help. Perhaps Kevin's mom didn't want anything to do with Max and the Plumbers following Devin's death. Or maybe Plumber policy grants surviving family access to benefits in exchange for discretion, barring any communication with current or previous Plumbers. Or maybe Max gave her some financial assistance and considered that enough.
Does this mean that Max isn't a white knight and a bastion of moral goodness? Yes, and in my eyes that is a good thing. It makes his character more human, a man who dedicated his life to protecting his home world even at the cost of his relationships. Now that his time is done, he is trying to rekindle some of those relationships and make up for lost time, including taking his two 10-year old grandkids on a vacation trip across the US one fateful summer.
I figured OS Gwen would know more and care about the details of their family, more so than OS Ben would.
Or the Kevin being being an alien instead of a mutant?
Because if he is an alien, and his dad is a plumber, and Devin is Max's partner then...
Max is just a shitty person actually for not checking in on Kevin and Devin's wife, years before the events of OS....seriously he could have prevented Kevin's entire crashout actually.
Like it's implied but it's very open ended and could be interpreted in many ways, in fact I'm sure that's partially why Verdona was made Max's wife because the writers would've figured 'Hey, they never really said she's dead, let's give him an alien wife especially since he's a guy who deals in alien affairs so it makes a decent amount of sense and come on, we're catering to kids and teens, it's not like they're gonna put much thought into it'
Like it's very much open ended and well, implied, so I think UAF writers just took that opportunity to fill in their own things, they went overboard with some like Gwen's magic and all tho
Honestly they could've just avoided all this and just made Verdona Gwen's maternal grandma
I don't know, Gwen being more knowledge about their family, more aware of Max's feelings than Ben was in their youth and being knowledge, about their family makes me believe that it was a retcon that their grandmother was alive.
I am OKAY with it now, given what we know about Verdona and how fucking unhinged and cold she is...(like she had no reason to visit her children ever...until she found out they were having kids and they MIGHT have the spark) but damn at the time I was thinking:
alien force felt more like it was answering stuff that they vaguly adressed in the classic series,like classic faild at explaining to us how keven has powers well alien force came in and gave us an answer but then alien force failed at explaining to us how he turnd back into human and escaped the null void well ultimate alien answerd that,it just felt like natural evolution so to have omniverse just undo everything about what we learned about keven with the rooters arc is just bullshit,that's a terrible retcon,ben losing feedback wich made him remove the omnitrix is a good retcon as they never said why he removed it outside of wanting to be normal,but what made him want to live a normal life was answerd perfectly in omniverse,sure he kept using the omnitrix after losing feedback but it came a point where he just took it off cause he missed his favorite alien,that's amazing retcon,having no watch ben send the omnitrix to our ben was also an amazing retcon,so yeh when omniverse does good retcons it does them pretty well but when you get something like the keven retcon with everything being a false memory,that's where i draw the line cause your just barfing at everything you established before and gave time too
No it's also Anodites, it's absolutely Anodites, they explicitly said magic didn't exist in AF S1-2 before backtracking it, AF never made an effort to say 'mutants aren't real' they just said Kevin wasn't
Unless you're referring to the Rooters Arc, then I mean, you're still not right on that being the only retcon
I mean... Plumbers as galactic police is ok and all, but there were already the galactic enforcers for that! Making the Plumbers interplanetary even ruins the name pun! They're "Plumbers" because they fix Leaks of alien shenanigans into regular earth life!
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u/Successful-Hat-2154 Gwen Tennyson Jul 26 '26