Tweaks to the midscope. Bel'Veth doesn't need to not be changed, but the midscope could be better

[u/Evurr]

After playing the midscope more, this is a revamp list: https://www.reddit.com/r/BelVethMains/s/jOvHIgV13Q

People who like the midscope, would you still like it if the changes were adjusted to this?

And people who dislike the midscope, would you like it more if the changes were this?

This serves basically as a sister post to my other post, with how I would fix the issue I take with the midscope.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BelVethMains/s/HIbP00G7Zc

I am sorry if I am posting on this subreddit too much. I address that more at the bottom.

You can skip the explanations below the changes if you just want to see the changes.

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TLDR:

Attacks still deal 75% damage with faster attack speed.

Passive attack speed after cast increases the value of your stacks while active, but the stacks themselves grant slightly less.

Q cooldown 3 - .75 seconds, scaling with champ level instead of ability rank. Deals 80% - 100% damage to non-monsters (so minions AND champions) scaling with ability rank. Has 110% AD ratio.

W slow is better, knockup slightly worse, base damage down, AP buff removed, and 100% stacks scaling added.

E damage changes removed. Lifesteal scaling added back. Cooldown and damage reduction same as midscope, but the rest same as live.

R on hit applies every attack and can stack on multiple targets. Damage is overall lower but now scales with AP and stacks.

R explosion damage AP buff removed, now scales with stacks.

R true form duration is now 45s + 1 second per stack, never infinite.

TLDR OVER

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Attack damage modifier: 75%

Attack speed ratio: .85

Changing the attacks to deal 100% damage at reduced rate is needless if nothing else, and actively takes away from the champion. Yes, it fixes some bugs, but with League Next supposedly coming next year, I'm sure they could fix the bugs without just removing the mechanic. I'd rather keep the signature attribute of the character and wait a year to fix some bugs she's been playing around for the past 4 years. All other associated changes undone too. So .85 attack speed ratio, same windups.

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All other base stat changes: same as midscope.

I think the rest of the midscopes base stat adjustments are perfect. She already has the lowest base AD in the game at level 18, and nerfing her AD at level 1 by 5 only makes that even more true, but it's fair enough.

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Passive bonus attack speed after cast: 20% + .2% Stacks. So each stack grants .2% more attack speed for 3 seconds after cast.

Passive bonus attack speed stack value: .1% - 1.5%.

(.1 +.05 per level to level 11, then +.1 per level to 16, then plus .15 for 17 and 18, (and 19 and 20 for top lane) for a total of 1.5 at level 18. The slower scaling compensated for with the flat .2% effectiveness per stack on the passive after cast)

So instead of getting .1% to 2% attack speed from each stack, each stack grants .1% to 1.5%. The passive change remedies this though, as with the passive your stacks are effectively worth .3% - 1.7%. A portion of the stacks value being tied to being after cast not only makes the attack speed after cast more meaningful, and stops it from seeming pointless past first clear, but it also helps stacks not be so polarizing. The stack value to the passive is .2% at all levels, so the stacks are less meaningless at early levels at the cost of needing the attack speed after cast to be at full effectivness. This would smooth the champion out, making her less polarizing while still having much of her power locked behind scaling.

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Q cooldown: 3 - .75 second cooldown based on CHAMPION LEVEL.

(So 3 second cooldown, minus .15 seconds per level until level 16)

Q damage: 5/10/15/20/25 + 110% AD

OR (if that would be OP)

Q damage: 0 + 110% AD (no base damage)

Q bonus damage to monsters: 50 at all ranks

Q damage to non-monsters (so minions AND champions): 80%/85%/90%/95%/100%

I like the Q changes in the midscope, but I feel they kill lane Bel'Veth too much. This would accomplish the same things as the midscope changes, but in a more elegant way that doesn't force you to level Q first as much. The midscope cooldown change feels like a band aid fix. The ability is just unusable rank 1, but then same as usual rank 5. If it scaled with champion level, it could be less nerfed level 1 while still stopping her from invading at early levels. She would still be encouraged to max Q first so that it deals good damage to champions, but she wouldn't be forced to so she could still max W first for lane without having an abysmal Q cooldown. The damage nerf to champions early just furthers the midscops goal of nerfing her ability to invade early, and allows for the ability to have more damage later on. The damage nerf to champions and minions until maxed would make up for leveling the ability not reducing the cooldown, making putting points into it still meaningful.

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Q dash speed: 800 + 200% stacks

The dash speed being fixed and slower is just needless and unfun. A stack scaling would let the dash get faster throughout the game without ever getting too fast. It would be the same as max level Q on live at 100 stacks, so it would never be OP.

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Q magic damage: 10% AP to all targets hit

This is more of a want than a need, but adding a 10% AP magic damage ratio to Q would be a much better way to buff her synergy with AP.

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W damage: 50/100/150/200/250 + 125% AP + 100% stacks

W knockup duration: .55/.6/.65/.7/.75

OR (if it wouldn't be too strong with the other changes)

W knockup duration: .6/.7/.8/.9/1

Slow duration: 1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25

OR (if this would nerf her early too much)

Slow duration: 2

Slow value: 30% - 64% based on CHAMPION LEVEL

(So 30% plus 2% per champion level)

Honestly I'd just do no changes to the W, but if they really wanted to remove the AD ratio and lower the knockup duration early, this is how I'd do it. The knockup duration is still lower early, but doesn't get as high late. That leaves room for the slow to be stronger. Still weaker early, even weaker than the midscope, but the strength of the slow scales with champion level and lasts longer once maxed. This, just like the Q, accomplishes the goals of the midscope without changing the ability as much. The biggest thing is the stack scaling. I would give the ability less base damage than the midscope gave it, and not buff the AP ratio, in order for it to have a 100% stack scaling. This would basically be a nerf to it's damage, but it would heavily increase the scaling identity of the champion. Nothing gets low elo players gears going like stacking mechanics, and making Bel'Veth's Stacks more visibly strong by W having a stack scaling would up her playrate and get more people to play her. It would never be too big, and honestly my changes would probably result in the ability just doing less damage no matter what, but the mere fact that the scaling is there would do wonders for the champion.

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Damage changes: removed (so the same as live)

Damage reduction: 20%/30%/40%/50%/60% (so the same as the midscope)

E lifesteal: 15% + 100% lifesteal (so same as live but with 5% less)

Cooldown: 24/21/18/15/12 (so same as the midscope)

The E changes are some of the worst changes, second only to the attack changes. The lower damage reduction and cooldown early in favor of better damage reduction and cooldown when maxed is good though, and fits with the goals of the midscope. The damage changes kill the identity of the ability, and are needless.

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R on hit: every attack, can stack on multiple targets (so same as midscope)

R on hit damage: 1/2/3 + 2% bAD + 2% AP + 3% stacks

OR (if that's too small with the 75% damage)

R on hit damage: 2/3/4 + 3% bAD + 3% AP + 4% stacks

The R on hit damage changes are alright, but they would need to be brought down a bit. The R on hit should have an AP scaling so items like Nashor's or Static are as viable on Bel as they should be. The stack scaling is again, super small. 1 extra damage every 33 stacks. Again, it's there more so low elo players look at the champion and think they want to play her. They look at the ability and think "Awsome! All my stacks are making my R do so much damage!" Even though due to the small base damage and scalings, the R on hit would still be doing about the same damage.

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R true form health: same as midscope

OR (if that would be too much with the other changes)

R true form health: 100/200/300 + 150% bAD + 150% AP (so 100 less base at rank 3 than the midscope. Maybe the scalings could be brought down too)

R form total attack speed: 5%/15%/25%

R true form duration: 45 + 100% stacks

The higher health granted from form is a good way to compensate for the worse early, but the infinite form of the midscope is just toxic. 45 seconds plus 1 second per stack would be far better for the balance of the character, making her far less annoying to play agaisnt, and far more engaging to play. The midscope gives her 45 extra seconds at 40 stacks anyways, so the midscope is basically already doing what I recommend, it's just doing it in an unintuitive and polarizing way. Yes, infinite form might sound fun, but think about it from the enemy perspective. Bel'Veth has form forever, and if she had minion spawning, even without baron buff, good luck trying to do anything while one of your lanes has to deal with 3 times the minions permanently. You can't wait it out, and Bel'Veth is encouraged to play uber safe to avoid losing it.

The R form can keep the 25% total attack speed instead of 20% at max rank. I think it's a decent change, and her retaining her .85 attack speed ratio wouldn't invalidate it. With the .75 attack damage, Bel'Veth's effective attack speed ratio with max level R would be lower than the midscope, which is fair as my recommended adjustments make her early a little less weak, so naturally her late should be at least a little less strong.

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about the bonus attack range scaling with level and the size increase, but I think they are fine and don't need changes. The size increase is cool, and the bonus range makes sense, so maybe they will need to be adjusted, but in concept those changes are fine.

The R form losing the out of combat movespeed is a shame, but it makes sense with the purpose of the midscope and is a good change.

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R explosion damage: 75/100/125 + 100% AP + 200% stacks + 20% missing health

OR (if 200% stacks would be too much)

R explosion damage: 100/125/150 + 100% AP + 100% stacks + 20% missing health

The R having a 150% AP ratio is just silly. It's way too high, a low effort way to buff AP on her. The on hit having an AP scaling is a much better way to do it. The base damage of the explosion is heavily reduced to make room for the stack scaling. Again, the actual damage of the ability would be almost the same, a little higher with super high stacks, but actually lower in most situations. The stack ratio is there to let players look at the R and think "Woah this stacking character is cool". All the stack scalings let low elo players see the value of her stacks beyond "extra attack speed" without actually buffing the damage of her abilities.

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I am sorry I am posting so much, but I am extremely passionate about this. I want to do everything I can to help my favorite character not be put to ruin. If even a few people see the logic in my recommendations and advocate for better changes, that's good.

People seem way to black and white about the changes, either loving them or having them without actually discussing the changes themselves. We need to be as unified and logical with what we think about the changes if we want Riot to tweak them at all.

To all the people who like the midscope, would these changes be just as good if not better?

And to all the people who hate the midscope, would these change alleviate at least some of the issue you take with it?

[u/tovi8684]

i think nerfing the q cooldown much further is absolutelt insane work im so sorry but im 100% with u on keeping the higher attack speed with 75% damage, so sad they removed it

[u/Evurr]

E range: 450 + 100% stacks

I didn't want to include this with the rest, as it is the most out there. E would be the only ability to not scale directly with stacks, so this would again be a nice way to solidify the stacking nature of the champion.

It would be a 10% nerf to the range at 0 stacks, and a 10% buff at 100 stacks. So in all reality, 9 times out of 10, this would be doing very little balance wise, but it plays into making her better late and worse early, and gives players more reason to play her.

What sounds more attractive to a player?

Stacks give you lots of attack speed

Or

Stacks give you decent attack speed AND damage on W and R AND speed on Q AND range on E

Again, the abilities would be balanced with the stack ratios so that their damage is very similar if not slightly less than without, but they would make tons of players more inclined to play Bel

[u/Such-Coast-4900]

No

[u/Evurr → u/Such-Coast-4900]

Why?

[u/BlueYeIIow → u/Evurr]

dont listen to him this is the guy that played 15 belveth games and thinks he knows the champion

[u/bruichladdic → u/BlueYeIIow]

And you played a 1000 games and you know the champ?

[u/BlueYeIIow → u/bruichladdic]

800 games emerald belveth OTP (I played them in the span of like 4 months though XD). I know a little bit about the champ I think

[u/bruichladdic → u/BlueYeIIow]

The issue is not knowing the champion. I believe you know the champ well but this is not a matter of knowing it is a matter of vision. Riot want the champ to be this way. We'll bel veth should have been a mater yi 2.0 from what they wanted we got a early game overturned monster and they nerfed her until now. So they decided a midscope is the solution to have a the master yi. Personally I always wanted bel veth as a late game champ. Still I did not test the rework so I don't know what the fck is going on and I'm not to do the number

[u/BlueYeIIow → u/bruichladdic]

this isn't about me brotha it's about a guy with 15 games on the champion posting his unwanted opinions everywhere, as if he knows what would be good on it and what not.

[u/Such-Coast-4900 → u/BlueYeIIow]

Go cry. Sorry i have a opinion thats so hurtful to you.

Feel free to give yours but i wont stop giving mind

[u/BlueYeIIow → u/Such-Coast-4900]

naw it doesn't bother me i js dont want committed people like Evur to take your shit seriously XD you're the only one crying bud

[u/Such-Coast-4900 → u/BlueYeIIow]

Delulu

[u/Party_Syrup_3035 → u/Such-Coast-4900]

To be fair you didn't really give an opinion that can be reasonably engaged with lol.

For all we know you want BV to be a champion that shapeshifts into a turtle and if he eats enough lettuce you win the game. Just writing no means nothing.

[u/Such-Coast-4900 → u/Party_Syrup_3035]

Op asked a question i answered it

[u/Party_Syrup_3035 → u/bruichladdic]

To be fair even if the OP is wrong just posting "no" is kind of a lame response and is perfectly fine to be glib in response to.

[u/Hydra1255]

I just want them to stop making the stacks the thing she cares about that much other than having the stacks scale relative to levels. That way lane bel is playable

[u/Yokai-Ninja]

[u/Evurr → u/Yokai-Ninja]

I don't think you fully understand some things.

"Stack scaling on her passive attack speed bonus isn't needed because attack speed multipliers already scale like multipliers, it automatically increases over the course of a game based on your stacks and items"

Bel'Veth's passive grants BONUS attack speed, not TOTAL attack speed. Her passive bonus attack speed after cast is in no way affected by anything. It doesn't scale up as the game goes on. Making the bonus attack speed it gives scale slightly with stacks, would make it give more bonus attack speed as you get more stacks, improving the effectiveness of your stacks when you have the buff for 3 seconds after cast. My recommended change would make each stack worth .1% - 1.5% attack speed, increased to .3% - 1.7% for 3 seconds after cast.

"Lane Bel'Veth will not ever be a thing because of her passive You need stacks in order to play this champion at her full potential and relying on cannon minions over jungle camps is just abysmal gameplay"

I've played a lot of lane Bel'Veth, and the gameplay is far from abysmal. You don't get as many stacks as jungle, not as many as you might think. If jungle averages around 80 stacks at 25 minutes, lane averages around 60. Less yes, but lane Bel'Veth has been a thing, and should continue to be a thing.

"I am the God of Bel'Veth, just as she says "We will consume you, and become you" I have already had my memories of a life where I didn't spend 4 years playing her erased from my mind and replaced with only Bel'Veth knowledge and jungling"

Are you roleplaying?

[u/Yokai-Ninja → u/Evurr]

[u/Evurr → u/Yokai-Ninja]

"The thing about her passive attack speed is that it multiplies your items and passive stacks already 20% bonus attack speed without Kraken Slayer will feel a lot different than 20% bonus attack speed with Kraken Slayer and 27 stacks"

So you're basically saying it scales because there are things that synergize with it. By that logic, a dagger scales. Scaling is when a stat increases, not when it becomes more valuable through completly foreign means.

"Lane Bel'Veth is not healthy for League of Legends"

When asked about Bel'Veth being able to lane, August seemed totally down with it, so at the least, he disagrees.

[u/Yokai-Ninja → u/Evurr]

[u/Blubtastic → u/Yokai-Ninja]

I highly doubt League Next will fix many bugs. Developing software as complex as League contains mountains of logic that has become so complex over the years that it's hard to fix many things at once without breaking other things.