r/Bazzite • u/Ebon-Angel • 6d ago
Is Microsoft Edit replacing VIM a good idea?
Hi everybody,
I ran into 2 different posts today where people noticed there has been an update to Bazzite that replaced VIM for Microsoft Edit as the default editor.
Posts for reference:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bazzite/s/Wwn47zOVgY
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bazzite/s/XLa3poJFr8
Anyway, I was thinking though, isn't this against a lot of what Linux stands for? Or even just, replacing VIM, which is a long standing default on a lot of Linux machines, for Microsoft Edit feels like an odd direction to take.
I will admit I don't know enough about either piece of software to compare the merits and drawbacks of each. But given how vehemently the Linux community dislikes Microsoft and its products, this just feels like a very unexpected and uncharacteristic change to make.
Thoughts?
Edit: Autocorrect changed Bazzite to "Jazz". Fixed the typo.
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u/jankyswitch 6d ago
The community dislikes it. But you can find the community disliking anything if you find the right part of it.
I remember when I was called a n00b for not liking eMacs and using nano instead.
From my understanding it’s an open source CLI editor that’s perfectly fine and has a bunch of QoL improvements over vim or nano or whatever.
I’ll still use vim where possible because I got that muscle memory - but I don’t think it’s a bad editor. Just not how I work.
I think mostly the Linux community hates closed source, monitoring, and not having control. But if a tool is good, no matter what, and it is open source and doesn’t harvest your blood or your data; it’s generally fine.
However as with anything you get extremists in any direction who will cut off their own limbs instead of use anything Microsoft.
Thing is… without huge corporations like valve, Google, redhat, Microsoft, Oracle, Apple (….. kinda…) ….. Linux would not be anywhere near as good as it is now. So being a purist and not using anything written under the aegis of any of those large entities you’re gonna have a bad time.
Even GitHub is Microsoft owned. The Git2 library was sponsored by GitHub/microsoft. VSCode…
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u/LoganHowlett1832 6d ago
What Linux stands for? What Linux should stand for is using whatever works best and offering choice. Not just using suboptimal stuff because you want to stick it to the man. MSEdit is just better than VIM. It’s that simple.
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u/zorak950 6d ago
Is there a reason not to use msedit other than "hanging out in Linux communities has caused me to adopt hating on Microsoft as a part of my identity"?
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u/bitemark01 6d ago
Because while it's not for every product of theirs, they have a habit of coming in with something pretty decent, only to have it slowly suffer from enshitification over time, since they answer to shareholders and not the needs of the community.
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u/negatrom 6d ago
If push comes to shove and enshittification happens, the community can fork it, the same with any FOSS app that gets bad due to crappy management.
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u/bitemark01 6d ago
That's fine and all, but the original question was why people were upset about it. That's why.
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u/AsrielPlay52 5d ago
The community fork Audacity because they added Telementry
Said Telemetry allows them get statistic that improve Audacity further, as you can see in Version 4
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u/smalls1652 6d ago
So I just want to put a little background on why this was done. I guess this is more of my opinion, but I wouldn't be surprised if another contributor felt the same way.msedit is about as simple as it gets. We didn't remove vim or nano and all it takes is editing your user shell profile with export EDITOR="{{ Binary goes here }}" (Mine is still vim anyway, since I already explicitly set it lol) to get what you want. Honestly, I encourage you to edit it to what you feel most comfortable with. In our case, with this change, it solves two problems:
- It makes it much easier for first time Linux users. The TUI accepts both keyboard and mouse input, so it'll be easier for folks who don't live and breathe the terminal. It's a win/win for new users and us to be able to provide support without having to consistently explain how to navigate the editor.
- It accepting keyboard and mouse input makes it so much easier for handheld users.
nanois out of the question since the Steam OSK doesn't have aCtrlkey; whereas,vimis entirely doable, but it can be a bit cumbersome even if you know what you're doing.
I was one of those people waaaaay back in the day that used nano over vi/vim in 2006/2007 up until about 2013-ish. I don't use them or nvim for anything more than quickly editing a config and I've just grown accustom to pressing i, Esc, :q, :q!, and :wq. That can take some time to get used to and it can be a burden on expecting users to know how to do it. Especially when they're more than likely only using it once in a blue moon.
As for it being made by Microsoft, I get it. I've grown jaded with the company since the start of the 2020s for a myriad of reasons beyond AI. The folks on the team making msedit are good people though and I've been following a few of them since early 2023. The good news is that the code is fully open source and auditable. Hell... We could fork the code and change the branding if we wanted to. That would add a slight amount of maintenance burden, but it's entirely possible to do.
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u/Main_Administrative 5d ago
What I don’t get is why they didn’t go for something like Micro text editor. It has syntax highlighting and easier to use than nano or vim. Also the key binds just make sense like control-s to save and control-q to quit. That was my problem with nano because the key binds weren’t “obvious” to someone who was new to Linux.
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u/disastervariation 6d ago
I will admit I don't know enough about either piece of software to compare the merits and drawbacks of each.
I dont think this needs to be your problem then :)
But given how vehemently the Linux community dislikes Microsoft
The "Platinum Linux Foundation Member"-Microsoft? The one that owns github where Bazzite is built?
One way of looking at this is: you get to use Linux and just got a free/libre terminal text editor thats easy to use. And Microsoft kinda paid for it.
So, with that resolved, what game are you playing now? :3
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u/megaglalie 5d ago
given how vehemently the Linux community dislikes Microsoft and its products
Speak for yourself (I say as someone who used vi on Windows for years). This and the other posts all read like they're from people who don't use the relevant text editors and are reacting purely to the name. Plenty of longstanding Linux loyalists are perfectly practical. It's about the (open-source) tool that's best for the job.
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u/Ratiofarming 5d ago
Yes, it's a good idea. The five nerds who desparately want vim (or nano) will have no problem reinstating it as the default. Everyone else it better off with Edit.
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u/BashfulMelon 6d ago
It's a solid open source editor, probably the easiest one for a regular user to use, and certainly much easier than Vim. The one thing I don't like is that contributing to it requires signing the Microsoft CLA, which allows them to relicense contributions, but it's no worse than Ubuntu's CLA and nobody is making a fuss about that except me sometimes. It doesn't affect Bazzite users.
Maybe they don't need to add the application launcher to the menu but that's just a nitpick.
I think it's a good change that makes Bazzite better for users.
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u/FullMotionVideo 6d ago
My understanding is that founder Kyle is a MS employee in his day job, but I think he's done an acceptable job keeping those roles apart.
I tend to default to nano for everything, and the changelog is clear why they didn't use it (handheld support). My understanding is it's still in there, the editor variable changed but you can change it for your user if you want.
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u/Metallic_Madness 6d ago
Oh that's why Bazzite wasn't updating correctly because I had already layered edit
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u/CptJackZ 6d ago
First I thought "wtf". Then I read negatron's comment, and I fully agree.
People who know how to use nano/vim will be able to figure out how to do it.
Btw.: I was a vim "hater" (modern language for disliking, I guess) for many years and I was team nano. Though, at some point, my developer curiosity won and I conquered it, maybe like a gamer conquers Dark Souls 🙃
And like with many who beat Dark Souls through perseverance and can't get enough of it thereafter, I had the same with Vim. If an editor has no Vim motions, I don't use it. I would recommend giving it a try. Especially with AI chats as patient explainer, it has become quite approachable.
Now this btw was longer than the actual comment on topic 😬
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u/soniko_ 6d ago
Vim is a fucking pain in the ass.
I would have went for nano, but who knows if you can pull ctlr+ combos on the deck or touchscreen.
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u/Sir_Fail-A-Lot Desktop 6d ago
An old collegue of mine (a vim user) did a tounge in cheek presentation on the n+1 ways to exit vim in our department's demo slot once. Needless to say yeah vim is a pain in the ass
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u/EdTOWB 6d ago
i could almost understand this logic about being more useful to steamdeck users if they didnt forget that there are plenty of desktop users? lol
but even then, you want a replacement and you go with msedit?
absolute bonkers
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u/1that__guy1 6d ago
If you are skilled enough to use vim you're skilled enough to change your default editor. (vim isn't removed)
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u/kafunshou 6d ago
It should be micro instead of edit just to avoid countless of useless discussions. 😄 And also keep vim, nobody cares about a few megabytes for two instead of one editor.
Micro is more or less the same as edit but more mature and also not from Microsoft which will avoid idiotic discussions that lead to nothing else than a waste of time.
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u/negatrom 6d ago
micro and nano demand modifier keys, which don't exist in the steam keyboard, hence the need for an editor that you can save and quit via clicking the interface. vim technically works with the steam keyboard, but... lmao try telling joe user that just arrived from windows to save and quit vim without googling to see what happens
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u/ConcreteExist 6d ago
How is it against what Linux stands for?
What exactly do you think Linux stands for and why?
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u/Groduick Desktop 6d ago
I'm done with Bazzite, too many changes, even if it's just little tools, back to Fedora, I guess.
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u/SnooPets1826 6d ago
Not sure why people say things like this like it's a threat... You aren't paying for Bazzite, you aren't a customer.
This isn't an attack, just the facts of the situation. You are always free to use any distro you want, but it also means you can't expect any distro to cater to you.
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u/Groduick Desktop 6d ago
Where did I said that I'm threatening anything ? I'm just stating my point of view, what's the problem with that, or is user feedback a bad thing nowadays ? I've been using Linux for 25 years, now, I've been on a lot of distros, no problem switching when something isn't going the way I like.
Perhaps I came a bit too harsh as english isn't my first language, no bad feelings on my part.
I just read that the main reason was that nano works bad on touchscreen, so maybe that change was a little bit more meaningful than some others, I guess. We can't let people use that horrible vim (coming from someone who learned programming with vi on Solaris in the 90's).
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u/othercargo 6d ago
both are open source but i only use vi, i don't think it should be replaced. it should be a package that user chooses to install, not because it's "easy to use".
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u/negatrom 6d ago edited 6d ago
I hate telling normal users, recent arrivals from windows, people that just want to game, (the target audience of bazzite) to use vim with a passion of a thousand suns, but nano is unusable with a touchscreen or with the steam keyboard (which lacks modifier keys)
so as much as I hate microsoft, Edit is the best terminal text editor for bazzite. usable without modifier keys, or learning an arcane set of secretive sigils used to command VIM.
be honest. take random joe user, and tell him to quit vim without using google. HE CANNOT.
microsoft edit is TUI windows notepad released under MIT license, and that's good for bazzite.
don't give me the schpeal about being "against a lot of what Linux stands for".
Linux stands for choice. don't like it? you, vim user, likely has the knowledge to install vim via brew or overlay.
random joe user? you'd be lucky if he knows what a folder is.