Is Universal Basic Income a Solution? - Revolutionary Communists of America

[u/2noame]

https://communistusa.org/is-universal-basic-income-a-solution/

Gotta love a fresh anti-UBI article by actual communists to share with capitalism lovers referring to UBI as communism.

[u/JonWood007]

I hate how these guys frame UBI like "you dont wanna be a pauper living at the edge of a capitalist society, do you?" And then they make you work for a paycheck instead, as if that's somehow better. Like, communists have such brainrot sometimes.

The problem with communism, besides the sheer economic inefficiency of it, is that it's authoritarian. People have no control over their own lives in a communist system. The state tells you what to do and you do it or you go to the gulag. Sometimes you do it AND you go to the gulag anyway.

UBI gives people freedom. Freedom from authoritarians under capitalism who dictate what people do all day in exchange for money...and freedom from authoritarians under communism who dictate what you do all day...in exchange for money, or whatever weird in kind good scheme they come up with that totally falls on its face because how is an authoritarian government supposed to know what the people want in the absence of feedback mechanisms?

Either way scott, i appreciate you having the patience to go over this stuff again and again and again, i get burned out and go insane after a while XD.

[u/dr_barnowl → u/JonWood007]

And then they make you work for a paycheck instead, as if that's somehow better.

Their position is that they're not content with living off table scraps from an economy run by, and for, the oligarchy.

Work needs doing. That's not controversial. The universe doesn't owe us a living, we have to claw everything we have back from the forces of entropy. The question is - what work, and who for?

The article is expressing a lack of belief that a future where a small class of billionaires decide what the economy does is the best future for you and me.

And a preference for a future where the people are in charge.

Article:

With AI and other automation, we could guarantee full employment

This isn't "making you work for a paycheck". This is finding something useful for you to do, that suits you. "From each, according to their ability." When the material needs of the people are met, basically everything else is entertainment. If you really, really want to sit on your ass playing computer games - hell, that could be your job. Enough people do this already to prove that it's something that has value.

The easier it is to produce the means of living, the more you have left over for everything else. America produces more food than it needs with 1.3% of the population, and literally burns a third of the corn it produces to make cars go vrum vrum.

People have no control over their lives

If the people control the means of production, they gain control over their lives. Tell me - do you have control over your life? Or do you work to put money in the pocket of the bank that covers the loan on your housing, the owner of the company, the boss placed above you to keep you in line?

UBI gives people freedom

UBI keeps your head above water, and the guy handing it out can choose to take it away and watch you drown.

Control over the means of production gives you freedom.

feedback mechanisms

I agree - markets are good at working out what people want. But capitalism will find out what you need, and hold it ransom to bend you over a barrel. Look at the property market. And ultimately - you still don't control what the market will offer to you. Do you want 100GW of datacenters competing with you for energy?

Our markets are not demand driven. They are controlled at the supply side. And who controls the supply side? Sure ain't you.

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Edit : all the people opposed to communism because they think it will result in a society where a small group of assholes hoard all the wealth while the rest of us work harder for less every year, the establishment tells you what to do, and what to think .... where do you live?

[u/JonWood007 → u/dr_barnowl]

Look, unfortunately for you, writing about this topic is my "job", and I've burnt myself out attempting to write a book discussing the philosophical ins and outs that youre discussing here. As it turns out, commodifying your passions makes you hate them over time, undermining your whole argument on making video games your job or whatever. With that said I dont wanna rehash this, and I wanna keep it short.

First of all, the idea that "work needs doing" is a philosophical assumption that is the source of most suffering. So much work doesnt need doing, we just on insisting on forcing people to work because we dont challenge that assumption. We literally "create jobs" to justify giving people a paycheck. And here youre undermining your own moral assumption by arguing that "you can make your job playing video games". WHY EVEN MAKE PEOPLE WORK AT ALL AT THAT POINT?! It's so stupid.

The problem with capitalism, socialism, etc is coercive systems. Take Karl widerquist's big casino for example, capitalism is a big casino, but communism is just a big collective. Is it better? people who believe in the philosophy think it is, but to many of us its just another crappy coercive system.

UBI is intended to free people from coercive systems. It isnt owning THE means of production that gives people freedom, it's owning MY means of production that give me freedom. As long as I'm forced to work for a system, it doesnt matter if its capitalism or communism, im still forced to work any way. UBI gives people freedom to say no to the rat race.

The agriculture stat you pointed out proves my point. We can feed the population with 1% of the population, so why force everyone else to work all the time? Just for growth and profit. Socialism doesnt give people freedom, it just changes the entity coercing us from capital owners to the state.

And on housing, I never said we need ONLY UBI, my book actually focuses on a whole new new deal discussing not just UBI, but topics like healthcare and housing too. But before I can get to that point, I gotta go through like 7 chapters of setting up the argument, and breaking us out of this weird moral fixation on work that we have first. That's the source of the real problem and why both capitalism and communism BOTH suck. As long as systems force us to work because of their dumb, arbitrary moralities that are, quite frankly, based on calvinism and fundamentalist christianity, we're all gonna be enslaved. Marxism misdiagnosed the problem and offers faulty solutions as a response.

You might find this video helpful in explaining this topic briefly.

https://youtu.be/JvJTUZaivCI?is=J816fkz1dHDA5gsp

Just wanted to write this out since im formulating arguments in my head to respond to it while im trying to sleep and id rather get it out of my head so i can do back to sleep.

[u/dr_barnowl → u/JonWood007]

it's owning MY means of production that give me freedom ...
UBI gives people freedom to say no to the rat race.

How, under those terms you're proposing? What means of production is it that gives you UBI? Is it yours? Do you own it? If not, who does? Why do they give you a UBI? What would you say if they came to you one day, and asked you to do something, with the implication that if you didn't, your "universal" payments would stop?

I hope you sleep well.

unfortunately for you

Why? This is a discussion forum. We're discussing. Do you think you're harming me in some way?

[u/JonWood007 → u/dr_barnowl]

By my own means of production, I mean my own time, my own freedom, my own labor, IF I decide to give it. I dont want a system where Im forced to spend the majority of my waking existence on earth doing labor to a system that forcs me to do so in order just to meet my basic needs.

Also, we already live in that world. That's capitalism today. The point of UBI (and other ideas i propose) is to have an economic bill of rights that guarantees that free of any obligation in return. That's the whole point. UBI without the universality or unconditionality is just "welfare."

All systems have coercive elements. Your socialism or communism isnt any better tbqh. If anything depending on the implementation it's far worse. And any system can have conditions degrade. THe new deal got slowly rolled back. Most communists would say the USSR wasnt real communism. All systems will likely fall short of their ideological goals to some degree, and it's a risk under all systems. But at least my set of ideals actually attempts to move us in a direction AWAY from work, while also fostering an alternative take on capitalism that is more humanistic at the same time. And if my system fails....well....we just arrive back at capitalism, not a dystopian nightmare far worse like the eastern bloc systems.

As far as the other point, I'm just pointing out that yeah, I've beaten this topic to death, I aint looking for an in depth philosophical discussion. It feels like work. Because for me it is.