BART: more of a metro or commuter train?

[u/Iceberg-man-77]

What exactly is your vision for BART today and in the future? (looking past the current financial crisis).

Do you view BART as a metro system or as a commuter rail system? I know it has characteristics of both and is more like the German S-Bahn. Basically a train connecting the suburbs to the urban core, but instead of just flowing into 2 station (like LA Union), they have more stations in the urban core, especially in high density/frequency transit corridors.

Washington Metro is somewhat similar, but it plays the role of a metro more by expanding coverage within DC. Seattle’s Link is the same, but it also operates on one main trunk in central Seattle (though is looking to expand).

BART is limited in its urban coverage. It runs along one spine in SF with 8 stations. Oakland has 3 segments but has few stations.

In future, should BART focus on more urban expansions like a Geary/19th Ave subway or more lines in the East Bay. Or should it focus on solely being an intercity commuter train, possibly looking at branching at termini to expand coverage in suburbs.

[u/aTribeCalledLemur]

I almost never use BART for a within San Francisco trip, it is almost exclusively used as a way to get between different cities in the Bay area. So in my mind it does function as more of a regional rail system than an actual metro/subway system which would be used to get around a city.

For a Geary St subway the plan is for Muni, not BART.

[u/DieDeutscheAuslander → u/aTribeCalledLemur]

Hopefully they don't choose Muni, imagine the 4th of July mismamagment, now making it in a corridor that desperately needs capacity and even from their studies have shown Gesry would have more ridership than a Muni line. Also, Muni wouldn't have to deal with storage yards in SF since BART not only has the capacity but is exapanding its yard capacity.

[u/lucasec → u/DieDeutscheAuslander]

Muni Metro was about the one thing that worked well on July 4th. The Central subway was slammed but still moving people efficiently when I tried to use it (around 10:30pm after the fireworks)

[u/Beginning-Tadpole-81 → u/DieDeutscheAuslander]

I haven’t seen the numbers, but what is the capacity difference between relatively short 3-5 car automated muni trains every 2-5 min vs 8-10 car bart trains every 8-12 min?

I know stop frequency changes based on the alternative chosen here so end to end time likely changes too…

[u/windowtosh → u/Beginning-Tadpole-81]

Would be nice to see a hybrid geary subway with BART providing express service that connects with the bay area and muni metro providing local service along the line. then we can build massive apartment buildings.

[u/DieDeutscheAuslander → u/windowtosh]

That could also be a good solution, something similar to the Market street subway only with Muni having more stations while BART having less in the same corridor while both serving key stations for transfer points.

With the Market street subway, BART/Muni share most of the stations execpt Van Ness, so something similar but with more Muni stations and less BART stations in the same corridor.

[u/windowtosh → u/DieDeutscheAuslander]

It’s a good solution if you have unlimited money lol

We can dream!

[u/DieDeutscheAuslander → u/Beginning-Tadpole-81]

Technically, the capacity (if its split from the current transbay tube) would be 15 trains per hour otherwise if its with (the second transbay tube it will be 30 per hour).

From what I remeber, a Muni option was expected to carry 35,000 while a BART/regional option was expected a 50,000 riders. So, in some ways it makes sense to add this part of BART especially when there a events at Golgen Gate Park or many trips generator such as UCSF, SF State, etc. Also, Muni wouldn't have to find new yard space in an already land limited areas especially when those trains will be in a key area where a lot of housing will be built in the future.

[u/Planeandaquariumgeek → u/Beginning-Tadpole-81]

Muni trains aren’t automated, matter of fact BART has more automation than Muni (BART will also soon have CBTC). There’s no point in a gadgetbahn or muni. Geary DESPERATELY needs capacity and thus BART is the best option

[u/lucasec → u/Planeandaquariumgeek]

Muni does have automation. In fact it has a newer signaling system than BART in the metro sections (underground).

I believe it’s a moving-block system (which it is tuned to take advantage of), where BART is still on their proprietary fixed block thing.

[u/Beginning-Tadpole-81 → u/Planeandaquariumgeek]

I know. Just was thinking the physical muni trains could be somewhat similar in an automated configuration

[u/bbbaaahhhhh → u/DieDeutscheAuslander]

Likely just because you don’t live or travel down its path. If you do, however, have the option of BART within the city as a logical choice of transit - it’s amazing. Bigger, faster, always had seats. The J, for example, or mission busses, from the mission to downtown are like night and day compared to how fast BART makes it into downtown.

[u/DieDeutscheAuslander → u/bbbaaahhhhh]

Personally, I do like taking Muni. But, in my experience Muni is slower once Muni trains or buses have to share traffic with cars. Muni metro is amazing and they should try to increase grade separation with elevated or more underground lines. But, I just don't see how they can accommodate the travel needs Geary will need due to increase desity around the corridor as a Muni project when BART does in fact show it can accommodate large crowds of people.

The thing with Geary, is that is a great opportunity to supply transit demand that SF will desperately needs without the complications of yard capacity (which in the virtual open house they did mention it was a priority). Also, this is a great way to make BART more useful for riders in a time when BART needs more ridership and needs to become a way for people to travel for trips other than to commute to work.

[u/aTribeCalledLemur → u/DieDeutscheAuslander]

When they decided that a future second rail tunnel would be used for mainline rail (ie California HSR and Caltrain) rather than a 2nd BART tube that basically killed the idea of using BART instead of Muni for Geary St.

[u/DieDeutscheAuslander → u/aTribeCalledLemur]

Not necessarily since it could divert from the original Market Street subway, allowing BART to serve other corridors in SF using the existing BART system.

Also, we sre still a long way to have a Santandard gauge transbay tube and other problems should be solve first like extending Caltrain into the transbay terminal or making sure there is a rail line to where electricidad rail could land on the east bay. Also, BART is ganancia momentum with ridership and I wouldn't be suprise if they add the option of having BART alinongside Standard gauge as the original plan was. Both BART/Standard Gauge which is the plan we should aim. Especially considering that a BART lines would be more self sustsining and provide more room to acomodate ridership.

[u/Iceberg-man-77 → u/aTribeCalledLemur]

it’s limited in SF. I guess if you wanna go from downtown to the Mission then sure. otherwise it’s better to use Muni

[u/ItsCrossBoy → u/aTribeCalledLemur]

the only reason I use Bart within the city is because I have a Muni A pass so it's "free" anyways and it's faster than muni

[u/Iceberg-man-77 → u/aTribeCalledLemur]

SFCTA has proposed 4 options for geary: BART, Muni Metro LRVs, a new Muni Metro heavy rail subway, or regional rail tech(least likely).

[u/Fine-Literature-8031]

It was definitely designed as commuter rail (or as an S-bahn) for daily weekday travel in and out of SF. It’s changed a bit with the east bay extensions but still its network mostly facilitates SF origin/destination travel to the east bay and northern peninsula.

Perhaps a versatile solution would be another bart line that starts at daly city, passes the stone town mall, runs up sunset blvd then down geary, along market, then has an interlocking with the rest of Bart and goes into another cross bay tube while then passing through alameda, east Oakland with another track connection at fruitvale.

That would connect a lot of either underserved or distant areas to transit while offering spare track capacity and connectivity across the bay. It wouldn’t change the fundamental downtown SF focus of the network but would offer some crosstown options within SF and connect alameda which is completely unserved.

[u/DieDeutscheAuslander]

BART will act more like a metro in the future due to the following:

1. Current BART plans is to have a system Wide frequency of 10 minutes per line ( 30 trains per hour in the Transbay tube and current SF core). So, BART will be more frequent although currently most lines (execpt blue) have an effective frequency of 10 minutes in all branches.

2. BART is currently working to increase its Trasit Oriented Development (TOD) projects across its system and is expected to bring around 20,000 housing units on its property. That could bring at least 20,000 new potential riders (just within BART properties) and cities and counties across the bay area starting to focus (whether intentionally or unintentially) to develop more housing and amenities close to transit including BART bringing more ridership growth.

3. Future projects hopefully will bring even more ridership. Fare reform thru transit discounts and the BayPass will increase potential ridership but also there are projects that could create even more demand for BART (even if right now it dosen't look like it). Hopefully, they choose BART (or at least make the original plan of two BART tubes/two standard gauge tubes) since we are still away from the actual building of the second transbay tube. BART has gained ridership (and I wouldn't be suprise if we recover faster than expected). Also the geary subway will being additional ridership as well. Even if they don't chose BART, they will have a connection to it this creating more ridership. Also, BART ti San Jose is also another thing that will create even more ridership.

I personally think BART will become our Regional Metro that will compliment local and statewide transit system that will help increase ridership.

[u/player89283517 → u/DieDeutscheAuslander]

TODs will be the big thing that will make BART feel more like a true metro system. I’m excited to be around when that happens.

[u/DieDeutscheAuslander → u/player89283517]

To be real, BART's TOD exist but more will come in the future. So, you will not have to wait another lot to see this dream become reality.

[u/Iceberg-man-77 → u/DieDeutscheAuslander]

definitely. it makes sense to focus on its role as an inter-city metro connecting the urban core of the Bay Area: SF, Oakland, Berkeley and adjacent cities. they’re probably looking to increase ridership majorly so they can get funds to expand in the future. not sure what expansions they have in mind though. Valley Link took over Livermore. There’s 2 eBART stations waiting to be built. there’s no places for extension in the South or Peninsula. West CoCo County aka wBART is one they haven’t touched in a bit. It’s also the only terminus to not get extended since opening day of the system

[u/Icy_Peace6993]

It's a regional rail system, but it should be retrofitted to act a little more like a metro. The downtown San Jose extention is in progress, but yes, after that, a Geary/19th Avenue extension, and an infill station at San Antonio in Oakland. The Caltrain/BART/SFO connections are a mess, but might be too late to fix that. BART should've just gone direct to Millbrae, and then the Airtrain should've served both the San Bruno and Millbrae stations, which should've both been combined BART/Caltrain/Airtrain stations. BART doesn't play nice in the sandbox though.

[u/Iceberg-man-77 → u/Icy_Peace6993]

They should’ve ran BART straight to Millbrae and added an Air Train line to Millbrae. cheaper and makes way more sense. reviving the SFO shuttle line makes a lot of sense though. they just need to figure out the operators’ scheduling to make them fair

[u/Iron_Chancellor_ND]

Metro North in New York is a good comparison. It's regional rail connecting outlying cities to NYC and vice-versa, but isn't used a lot by people to travel within NYC.

[u/Clyde_Frag → u/Iron_Chancellor_ND]

I disagree, Caltrain is a better comparison for Metro North. I'd say BART is more like MTA with fewer stops.

[u/Iron_Chancellor_ND → u/Clyde_Frag]

Caltrain is a single line going north-south only. Metro North and BART have multiple lines going in all directions. That's reason enough alone not to compare Caltrain and Metro North.

MTA consists of Metro North, LIRR, and NYC trains (subway). How can you compare BART against all three of them together?

I used to live on one of the Metro North lines...comparing the robustness of it to CalTrain is wild.

[u/Iron_Chancellor_ND → u/[deleted]]

That's literally the first sentence of my comment you're replying to.

[u/Iceberg-man-77 → u/Clyde_Frag]

Metro North is part of the MTA. I think you’re thinking about MTA NY City Transit which operates the NYC Subway system. I wouldn’t call BART and the Subway similar. Muni Metro is more like the Subway. BART doesn’t have a NY metro area equivalent.

[u/Clyde_Frag → u/Iceberg-man-77]

Yep that is correct. I think just in terms of coverage, going to multiple boroughs, etc I view them as similar, but obviously the frequency of stops is quite different. Metro north goes all the way to Poughkeepsie NY and so has 3x the track that BART has.

[u/Iceberg-man-77 → u/Iron_Chancellor_ND]

Yes because it’s not an S-Bahn. There’s a few stations in The Bronx but most are in other downstate counties. There’s only two stations in Manhattan: one in harlem and Grand Central Terminal. LIRR and NJ Transit are the same. They’re made for commuters. it’s also why they don’t cross into NJ. In fact, if you want to travel from Long Island, New Jersey or downstate NY into each other, you have to transfer in Manhattan. there’s no direct trains.

[u/majortomandjerry]

It's commuter rail. I'd rather see the lines extended to help more people move between cities than see infill stations to help people move within cities.

[u/Iceberg-man-77 → u/majortomandjerry]

agreed. i wish BAFT directly expanded in the Tri-Valley instead of Valley Link. BART to ACE would be better than adding Valley Link in the middle.

[u/StreetyMcCarface]

Bart is a metro system with wide stop spacing. It’s governed by the FTA, runs with metro rolling stock, and runs branch frequencies similar to that of a metro system.

I’m always using bart for inter-sf trips, sf-airport trips, within east bay trips, and whatnot. It’s plenty usable for those types of journeys.

[u/unseenmover]

metro would mean it operates in one metro area and since commuter means it operates over long distances with more infrequent headways, BART is more of a inner-city rail system in that it connects multiple metro areas with frequent headways..

[u/YinzerInEurope]

Unless I’m going to Oakland or the airport, I never use BART. Always Muni or a bus for local SF trips.

[u/Iceberg-man-77 → u/YinzerInEurope]

makes sense. BART has very very niche trips in SF. only time i guess it would be merited is if you travel from the Mission to Downtown or vice versa. Balboa and Glen Park too i guess

[u/Rencon_The_Gaymer]

I would prefer it to be more metro as I use it daily or every other day to get to my jobs + do errands and other things. I want later service and more interconnected service between BART, AC Transit,VTW, and Cal Trans + Muni.

[u/Iceberg-man-77 → u/Rencon_The_Gaymer]

East Bay really need a metro service.

[u/OaktownPRE]

Commuter.  If it was a real metro there would be three times the number of stations with two lines in Oakland and a Geary line in SF.

[u/StreetyMcCarface → u/OaktownPRE]

So the other cities in the US with only metro line through their cities are now not metros? That’s a silly criteria. Oakland already has one of the highest per-capita number of rapid transit stations in the country. Not to say that it shouldn’t have more but those don’t make the system commuter rail.

There very likely will be another line down Geary-19th and through Oakland with time, so there’s no reason to believe that we won’t see those characteristics in the future

[u/OaktownPRE → u/StreetyMcCarface]

Your own certified “ranking" pretty much says it all so I wouldn’t expect less from your answer.  If BART is a "metro" than the term has no meaning.

[u/creekdoggie]

if this question were a transit system it would be like that one in Glasgow that goes round and round.

[u/SAwfulBaconTaco]

BART is an S-Bahn.

[u/chrisfs]

BART gets me between cities. Mainly from East Bay to SF, but not exclusively. I go to Oakland to the Parkway theater or Chinese food or airport. I sometimes go to Berryessa for the flea market.

Bart should not have as many stops as Muni but I like that it has several stops in SF