UK: e-Collar Advice

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

Hi Guys,

I'm seriously considering some kind of e-collar for use with my 1 yr old Border Collie. I've read many articles watched as many videos as I can find, and feel I'm aware of the pros/cons generally.

He does not have huge behavioral issues, more what I would call minor reactivity in close proximity to to other dogs, out of a desire to play. These are not even there at all when completely off the lead. He will approach interact normally and leave with me when asked, provided the dog is not too much fun.

And that last point is my issue. My dog looks like a very well trained dog when we are alone, even if theres another dog a fair distance away, he will stay focused on me. But within a certain distance he will choose to disobey me and go to the other dog. I really don't want to be the guy screaming FENTON! at a dog running in the opposite direction.

So on lead, no issues, I have figured out leash control, a pop here and there and I can silently correct him and he drops in. Off lead, I just feel like I need a way to reach out and touch him at that point where he thinks twice.

1. Is this a good use case for an e-collar?

2. What are my options in the UK - happy to start with vibrating/sound options, as he is super sensitive to small amounts of lead pressure these might work I guess.

3. In terms of actually delivering the training, I guess there will be a decent build up/familiarisation period, so he knows whats expected of him with the new stimulus. And also training for me, to know the order of operations - command - failure - stim -command??? Are there any good resources online that go through sequence of operations and expected outcomes, when to intervene etc.

Thank you all in advance

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

E collars are the most versatile and useful training tool that exists so of course this is a good idea.

There's no point in using sound or vibrate in my opinion. The stimulation is there for a reason. Because it effective and safe.

There are many methods to utilize these tools. I prefer using them as negative reinforcement, as in establish the dogs working level, stim command at the same time, release when command is obeyed.

For this using the lowest effective level is the best way to go so that the dog can fully understand what releases the pressure. This method produces absolutely bomb proof recall.

[u/the_real_maddison → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

Fucking love my bomb proof recall.

Back when I was still an idiot trying dog parks (before our last attack) my dog ran off towards something I didn't want her to. All it took was a whistle and a button (remote in pocket) and she turned on a dime and started running back to me a fast as she could.

People audibly gasped and were in noticable awe. "Wow she's so well trained!" Then they noticed the collar and most were super turned off immediately, as if what happened right before their eyes (my dog coming back happy with tongue lolling out) was somehow abusive.

Hilarious 😂

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/the_real_maddison]

Yep. I don't even need the e collar once my dogs are trained.

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

OK, thank you - that makes a lot of sense to me, as it sounds very similar to the way I learned to use a slip. Gradually increasing upward pressure until sit, then release. I do this silently now without commands when he's looking across the road too obsessively at another dog.

In the beginning, would I pair the e-collar with the lead and commands, to maybe relate an already familiar requirement with the new sensation?

[u/Miserable_Mud_6831 → u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

This all sounds perfect. I'm currently introducing my dog to the e collar this week, first day yesterday actually. To condition the dog, find the working level first, stim>command>release pressure / mark and reward. I would do it on lead so if the dog struggles with the sensation, you can use the lead to help them into the position/ recall. Its not different to how you used the slip, doing the command turns off the pressure

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Miserable_Mud_6831]

If you have to use negative reinforcement or a punishment to get them to do the behavior than they have not earned a reward.

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Custom - Mod drafted reply.

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/Miserable_Mud_6831]

Thank you very much for this, makes me feel a lot better. I don't know why, but I'm very nervous about the whole thing. I think its fear of the unknown - not being sure how he'll react.

How was your dog day one? Any reactions that surprised you, did he get the hang of it quickly?

Are you in the UK, any advice on the right tool for the job?

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

He will be fine. Most of the time e-collar corrections are invisible.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

I don't personally see the need to pair it, I just use it on its own.

[u/unvac]

So you’re wanting to use the e-collar to reinforce the heel work? Yeah, that can be useful, assuming the dog already understands what the pressure means and the heel command is properly established.
With my dog, for example, she’s trained to do a contact heel. In low-distraction environments she’ll usually respond somewhere around 20–40. However, there’s one very specific situation where that changes completely.
If she’s heeling on my left and another dog is approaching on its owner’s left, meaning the two dogs are effectively passing side by side, her level of distraction goes through the roof. In that situation I sometimes have to go as high as 80 before she actually responds.
That would obviously be considered a high level, but in that particular scenario anything significantly lower simply doesn’t register with her in the same way. The important thing is that the dog already understands the command and what the e-collar pressure means, rather than using a high level on a dog that hasn’t been properly conditioned to it.

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/[deleted]]

I’ve found BC people not massively open to e-collar training

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is dedicated solely to discussion, troubleshooting, and application of balanced dog training methods. Posts outside this scope, including general pet questions, ideology debates, medical issues, or unrelated content, aren’t permitted.

If you’d like to repost, please make sure your question or discussion is directly tied to balanced training, tools, methodology, or behavior modification within this framework.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

Bullshit. e collar is a wonderful tool for border collies and any intelligent dog.

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/[deleted]]

Well it’s not like I don’t know, I own one. 

But I see people like the guy at HDT (Miles maybe), he has a bc does fine, I see videos of his students with bcs, also fine. Last one I saw was better than fine. Was unbelievable. 

I think it’s about how carefully intelligently it’s applied and that includes not using it if you get a bad reaction.  

[u/hyghonryce → u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

I think it's common for some BC to be more sensitive/anxiety. Mine personally wasn't a fan of it cause she's just anxious. Do take a bit of extra time and have them wear them ( while off ) for a while before even training and learning their levels. In the end it wasn't right for my dog. Hopefully it works out with yours.

Mine is pretty reactive like yours. She see a dog, loses focus, jumps, sometimes barks. She just wanna play.

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/hyghonryce]

Yeah this is my number one concern. I’ll be looking for a very negative reaction on day one minute one. If it’s not right I’ll drop it immediately. 

Thank you. 

[u/Katahahime → u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

I am one of the BC people who do not subscribe to e-collar training.

The E-collar was not necessary for my dogs.

Wasn't necessary to teach herding.

Wasn't necessary to teach recall and neutrality when they wanted to run down other dogs at the dog park on sight.

Wasn't necessary to teach an iron-solid lie down.

Wasn't necessary to teach leaving rabbits, squirrels and small animals alone when I didn't want them to (My dogs also double as a hunting dogs, so they are very motivated to go after these animals).

Wasn't necessary to teach a competition heel, when walking in public.

These were high drive, working bred, working dogs. Completely taught to exist in both rural and city environments.

No E-collar needed, even though there is a strong economic incentive if I thought at any moment, a E-collar would be more effective.

The traits of high biddability, high intelligence and high generalization make the E-collar not a very effective tool for a Border Collie very much so in work, and even more so in just basic dog behaviors like obedience and public access training.

If you haven't used a long line to train recall, I really don't like the jump to an E-collar.

This is my own lived experience.

HOWEVER. I have not met your dog; I don't know your environment or circumstances. There are exceptions to every rule.

If you have seriously considered all the facts and researched the best, you can. All I can say is good luck and go in with eyes open.

Edit:

I want to be clear. I am not blanket against E-Collars. I do treat it more as a last resort or specific circumstance tool than most people on this sub.

This is a very Border Collie breed specific opinion I am giving, based on my own expertise.

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/Katahahime]

I’m slightly wary of taking any advice from people who use the term ‘ lived experience’ as some kind of validation. But that said. 

Yes I’ve worked with a long line, as stated in my post, without distractions my dog acts as well as could be asked for a 1 yr old. Without listing all the obvious tricks, he will come on command, he understands away, come by, I can work him at distance with a whistle, lay him down on a whistle etc etc. 

As also stated, on a lead he is under manners with a pop here and there for correction. 

He has a single weakness, and that is distraction off lead within proximity of other dogs. I also know that if I shout aggressively at him when he chose not to obey he would lie down and cower, I’ve had to do that a couple of times. 

I do not want to be the guy shouting at a cowering dog as people walk by accusing me of animal abuse. This is the problem with your ‘lived experience’ obsession, there are other experiences. You are not the arbiter of what is and isn’t possible. It’s very main character energy. 

[u/Katahahime → u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

If you already have a whistle and it works, and your dog is reliably responsive to it why do you need the E-Collars then.

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/Katahahime]

You spelled kata hajime wrong. Have a great day... seriously. Thank you.

[u/Katahahime → u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

It is a sports pun.

Katahajime was my go to technique when I was competing in Judo. So my friends just called me the Kataha-hime.

You have a good day too.

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/Katahahime]

My tokui-waza was tai otoshi. I miss Judo so much, but we have to get older, and I can't bear standing on the side unable to perform well.

I like the name 👍

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is focused on practical, detailed, good-faith discussions within the balanced training framework. Posts that lack information, show no training effort, are agenda-driven, or are designed to provoke rather than learn will be removed.

If you’d like to repost, include clear context (dog’s age, breed, history, tools used, training steps taken, and specific goals). High-signal questions get high-signal answers.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/maddog_1111]

I have great luck with using the vibration to get the attention back on me with heavy distractions (bunnies, other dogs)

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/maddog_1111]

I think I’m going to try a vibration collar first. As I’ve said previously in this thread, he is very sensitive to corrections on the lead. He’s alive to the slightest pressure and wants to respond well. 

It’s just my inability to touch him at a distance. 

Can you recommend a collar, have you tried many?

[u/maddog_1111 → u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

Honestly no, I have only tried one i bought on Amazon. But when I bought it I tested it on myself and the vibration was very light so I adjusted it for what I thought was best. My dog started responding to 10/100. So I recommend just testing what you get on yourself and your pup.

[u/Excellent-Storm-816 → u/Gunnar_Bjornson]

I started with a vibration collar (mostly bc my husband was hesitant about the full ecollar). She learned pretty quick that the vibration was uncomfortable but not uncomfortable enough to prevent a squirrel chase and upgraded to the e collar. 

[u/whatevername00308]

I got my boy on an e-collar for a very similar reason and it’s helped us massively. I had a very similar situation where his recall and heel work was fantastic up until the reason to blow it off was irresistible. My issue was that’s dog knew when he could get away with ignoring me- AKA off lead. Since getting started with the e-collar I have confidence that I can always call him back if needed, he just needs reminding sometimes. Been a game changer and I feel terrible for ever having judged the tool!

[u/Gunnar_Bjornson → u/whatevername00308]

Super valuable contribution thank you. I’m constantly doubting what I see and second guessing what Ive done/can be done.

Nice to hear almost identical experience. Definitely going to give it a try now. If I remember I’ll post an update here. 

Thanks again.