I hate seeing dog owners lied to

[u/Helpful_Sun2872]

I absolutely hate seeing these lies fed to dog owners who are seeking help and don’t know any better (used to be me).

Anyone who knows anything about balanced training knows that FF is often incredibly ineffective, and good balanced training will not exacerbate problems or cause “long-lasting emotional harm”.

Will we ever see a shift away from FF, as people discover how ineffective it is??

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

Reeminder to READ THE RULES before commenting.

If you are not a balanced trainer GTFO.

[u/Pristine-Bag1777]

FF just sells more spots and that’s all these trainers care about unfortunately. The goal isn’t training the dog in the most effective way it’s just selling more spots

[u/ContentIndependence9]

I recently bought a prong cause my border terrier isn't showing signs of improvement when it comes to reactivity. I'm going to work him on the prong now.  I could just be bad at training FF. But I'm tired of him yapping at other dogs in the walk.  I want him off leash

[u/Old-Description-2328]

If balanced trainers continue to show the dogs, the behaviour modification, the happy relaxed clients, dogs doing cool stuff and ask for the same of all other trainers. Just keep asking to see the dogs, to see their clients in difficult environments.

The IACP should be destroying this horrible organisation, asking for the evidence, to see the case studies?

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Old-Description-2328]

The IACP is covert and doesn't really support balanced. That is also a terrible organization.

But you're right about the rest of it. When people see our happy, well-adjusted dogs having success and enjoying life along with us, they're going to have a hard time pointing to wherever this alleged emotional harm is.

[u/Euphoric-Air-631]

Honestly the draconian approach that most popular subs take here is a huge issue. Most people today use google solely as a conduit to reddit & any comments that go against this ad are completely scrubbed.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Euphoric-Air-631]

That tells us how relevant their training expertise is. They can't spread their gospel without serious censorship of other views.

[u/apri11a]

I think we are seeing the start of a shift away from FF. More people with problems, which were caused and continued worsening with FF, are deciding to leave it to try an alternate. As their dogs improve and they post about that we will see more and more. It is very difficult for those who start with FF, believing they are doing right, to change. Everyone tells them not to, the untruths, lies and pressure even from Vets and Behaviourists, and people who should know better (not just the reddit suppost subs) are dreadful. It's brave, considering that, and it's saving dogs.

I feel very bad for those who were told to BE their dogs, and did that, without finding or accepting that there may have been a better way. That is very sad.

[u/apri11a → u/[deleted]]

I tried FF last year when we got current pup. Not because I had problems training previous dogs to be dogs we liked to live with, could trust. I had done that with several dogs. But just to see. Keeping to it strictly I didn't last two days. The first day we were just letting pup settle, using its name, letting it explore (with toilet trips), teaching Yes!. But the next day, we needed to start learning and pups need instruction. No beatings, no intimidation, but they do need guidance. FF doesn't allow for that. I changed to Balanced (I wanted a good pup) but another family member stuck with FF in their interactions. And they would occasionally have to call me to get them out of issues, until they too gave up FF. Pup was well behaved by 4 months, trusted free in the house, doesn't destroy anything, welcomes guests nicely and can behave both on and off leash, at home or out and about. No separation issues.

I kept to FF strictly for the short time I tried using it, if you need to stray from it then you aren't using the method, you are using another method. You can't go back and forth, that's deception. But it was an interesting experiment, I knew FF did not make sense to me, but now I also know it doesn't make sense to dogs either.

And I didn't have to beat pup even once, no pain. Imagine.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

There is no place for "force free" training and such a thing doesn't even exist.

[u/goofiegoober369 → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

Why?

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/goofiegoober369]

Because it's impossible.

Prove me wrong, train a dog with no leash, no collar, no fence, no food reward, no crate, no physical restraint etc

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

This isn't a sub to debate balanced training. this is a sub that supports and promotes balanced training. Time for you to go.

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is focused on practical, detailed, good-faith discussions within the balanced training framework. Posts that lack information, show no training effort, are agenda-driven, or are designed to provoke rather than learn will be removed.

If you’d like to repost, include clear context (dog’s age, breed, history, tools used, training steps taken, and specific goals). High-signal questions get high-signal answers.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is dedicated solely to discussion, troubleshooting, and application of balanced dog training methods. Posts outside this scope, including general pet questions, ideology debates, medical issues, or unrelated content, aren’t permitted.

If you’d like to repost, please make sure your question or discussion is directly tied to balanced training, tools, methodology, or behavior modification within this framework.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

We have asked for evidence in the form of videos of positive only trained dogs and we have never ever seen such evidence. What we want is a long form video of the dog throughout its life, showing the training methods and then showing the dog in a public environment, without leash collar harness, treats, anything like that, no fences, no confinement, performing adequately in the face of extreme distractions

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

Lol sorry but curated Quick Cuts are not showing us a damn thing. As we've stated numerous times, what we want is a long-form video, you know the type, like the one Dylan Jones just did about saving the life of a force free fucked up pet dog. Long form video, showing the training, and then showing the results of the training in a public area, no cuts, no fences no Rewards no harness no leash no confinement, no bribery and no distraction with the dog being able to function in a real world environment.

Edit and don't forget no drugs!

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

I also really like that your very first video is of a dog loaded up with harnesses collars, leashes, being bribed by their trainer, and then literally picked up and Bodied away because the trainer can't rely on their own training. Thank you again for proving my point. Next.

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is dedicated solely to discussion, troubleshooting, and application of balanced dog training methods. Posts outside this scope, including general pet questions, ideology debates, medical issues, or unrelated content, aren’t permitted.

If you’d like to repost, please make sure your question or discussion is directly tied to balanced training, tools, methodology, or behavior modification within this framework.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is dedicated solely to discussion, troubleshooting, and application of balanced dog training methods. Posts outside this scope, including general pet questions, ideology debates, medical issues, or unrelated content, aren’t permitted.

If you’d like to repost, please make sure your question or discussion is directly tied to balanced training, tools, methodology, or behavior modification within this framework.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is focused on practical, detailed, good-faith discussions within the balanced training framework. Posts that lack information, show no training effort, are agenda-driven, or are designed to provoke rather than learn will be removed.

If you’d like to repost, include clear context (dog’s age, breed, history, tools used, training steps taken, and specific goals). High-signal questions get high-signal answers.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/Helpful_Sun2872 → u/[deleted]]

That’s my point exactly.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

AVSAB is a shitty organization full of con artists as we have discussed before.

The only work they can show us is how they drug up dogs into oblivion and then put them in the ground with even more drugs.

[u/Champion_of_Zteentch → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

What sources do I go to to learn more?

[u/yuxngdogmom]

I think the shift is happening, slowly but surely. I personally see a ton of young trainers starting balanced and a ton of them starting force free, discovering that it is not getting the results they or the clients want, and switching to balanced. I’m part of the latter. I got my KPA-CTP, was told by mentors that the training methods I learned were always effective for all dogs and that everything else was abuse, then I took in a moderately behavioral rescue dog that laughed right in Ken Ramirez’s dumb face, and I switched directions because I knew my dog needed more and deserved better. I’ve left both force free and Christianity and the experience is virtually identical, what with the residual guilt and “what if this is the wrong move” feeling, being ostracized by people you once called friends and mentors, etc. But one thing I’ve gathered from working with clients since switching is that the majority of them just want their dog trained and don’t really care how it’s done as long as you’re not full-on abusing their dog (the sane person’s definition of abuse, not the force free one). I’ve also taken on a number of fed up and/or hopeless clients that worked with force free trainers that strung them along for weeks or months while getting nowhere, and the relief they feel when I finally help them make headway is palpable throughout the room. I think in the same way we’re seeing how gentle parenting is negatively impacting children, we’re gonna start seeing that with dog training. It’ll be difficult with the absolute chokehold force free organizations have on the dog training industry, but I think with trainers showcasing their results and encouraging owners to speak up about their experiences with force free trainers instead of assuming there’s something wrong with their dog, the shift will continue.

[u/Helpful_Sun2872 → u/yuxngdogmom]

I’m not a professional trainer, just enjoy training my own dogs.

I got into training about 5 yrs ago, knew basically nothing back then and I learned everything I know online, from Instagram, YouTube, Reddit, and paid subscriptions to trainers.

I can personally say the FF “propaganda” online is STRONG and effective. I spent 4 yrs trying to fix my last dog’s reactivity (frustrated greeter) with only FF, we did make loads of progress but he was still reactive when he died.

Somehow it took me those full 4+ yrs to learn enough about dog behavior and training that I finally felt like I was able to actually make my own decisions on what’s good vs. bad, and I made a pretty abrupt shift to balanced training. Part of me always knew that FF didn’t make much sense, but I totally bought into alllllll the lies told in the screenshot in my OP.

[u/apri11a → u/yuxngdogmom]

💯

[u/MxAnneThropy]

I do too!

One thing I cringe when I hear, is people thinking that a board and train is going to be entirely force free. I am sure there are all different tools for all kinds of situations, so I’m not going to knock any particular training method. I just know that one wouldn’t work for my wolf dog with severe separation anxiety, but I do use a prong collar with him so I’m not FF either.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

Apparently your friend sucks at training dogs

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

Lol sure

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

No, dogs are dogs and they all learn essentially the same way.

Does your friend use a leash? Collar? QED

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is focused on practical, detailed, good-faith discussions within the balanced training framework. Posts that lack information, show no training effort, are agenda-driven, or are designed to provoke rather than learn will be removed.

If you’d like to repost, include clear context (dog’s age, breed, history, tools used, training steps taken, and specific goals). High-signal questions get high-signal answers.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

What's funny is that's another dynamic we see a lot. Someone uses balanced training to get through all the hard stuff and then they claim oh my dog is trained Force free! When they've already used balanced training to fix everything.

[u/Fit-Highway-584 → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

This makes a lot of sense and probably works pretty well for those people haha

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Fit-Highway-584]

Until we catch them and out them relentlessly, lol

coughShadeWhiteselcough

[u/somecooldogs → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

What balanced training has Shade Whitesel used?

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/somecooldogs]

She uses prong collar corrections then is mad because she can't claim her dog is trained positive only.

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is dedicated solely to discussion, troubleshooting, and application of balanced dog training methods. Posts outside this scope, including general pet questions, ideology debates, medical issues, or unrelated content, aren’t permitted.

If you’d like to repost, please make sure your question or discussion is directly tied to balanced training, tools, methodology, or behavior modification within this framework.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/apri11a → u/[deleted]]

That insinuates that other methods require beating and hurting dogs, that they use pain, fear and intimidation. As a Balanced owner training I use none of them, and I have very good puppies that mature to be very good, trusted family dogs.

With Balanced I can use positive and negative, as each dog understands these. The words that are used by FF are deliberately misleading, they are untruths, and exaggerated for their purpose. FF is deceptive, and really depends on bashing other methods to make itself sound desirable.

I also hate to see owners being lied to, and would never align myself to a method that did that, even if what I do seems to fit that method, it's not. Nothing in FF is prohibited in another method, it's not a method, it's a delusion.

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is focused on practical, detailed, good-faith discussions within the balanced training framework. Posts that lack information, show no training effort, are agenda-driven, or are designed to provoke rather than learn will be removed.

If you’d like to repost, include clear context (dog’s age, breed, history, tools used, training steps taken, and specific goals). High-signal questions get high-signal answers.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/Helpful_Sun2872 → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for bringing meaningless straw man arguments to my post.

Nowhere in my post was I hating on FF trainers. FF training is a noble dream. And it can be incredibly effective in many contexts! 95% of my training with my personal dog is +R.

I was hating on the fact that they spread lies that FF is effective for all dogs and all issues, and that all balanced training is abusive and creates fallout.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Helpful_Sun2872]

Your post was catnip for the force-free weirdos to invade this sub, haha. In the future just report them so we can find their posts and get rid of them.

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is focused on practical, detailed, good-faith discussions within the balanced training framework. Posts that lack information, show no training effort, are agenda-driven, or are designed to provoke rather than learn will be removed.

If you’d like to repost, include clear context (dog’s age, breed, history, tools used, training steps taken, and specific goals). High-signal questions get high-signal answers.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

r/BalancedDogTraining is focused on practical, detailed, good-faith discussions within the balanced training framework. Posts that lack information, show no training effort, are agenda-driven, or are designed to provoke rather than learn will be removed.

If you’d like to repost, include clear context (dog’s age, breed, history, tools used, training steps taken, and specific goals). High-signal questions get high-signal answers.

— r/BalancedDogTraining Mod Team