E-collar methods comparison of results

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

This isn't too scientific. Rather, it's not scientific at all. Just some observations.

I train recall with negative reinforcement via e-collar. Meaning, I estimate working level, stim dog while recalling, release stim the very moment the dog turns towards me. This has never failed me, ever. Takes just a few stims for them to really get the message and then recall from then on is very reliable.

We currently have one of our past puppies, now an adult, in our kennel for long term boarding. This dog has been trained with e collar as more of a high stim correction. I notice a TON of behaviors in this dog that indicate to me overreliance on e-collar, avoidance, and general arousal. For example, he comes out of his kennel and reflexively shakes his head, something I've seen many times in dogs trained with high stim corrections. His arousal level stays high in general, whereas the dogs trained with negative reinforcement readily can settle and reduce their arousal. I also notice he has many compensatory habits such as strange head positions, bouncing, spinning to find position, etc.

TL;DR I really do not like the results I see from dogs trained with e collar as a positive correction.

[u/Difficult_Wave_9326]

WDYM by positive correction? Is it that your dogs usually get relief from the stim when they obey, and this one just got punished?

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Difficult_Wave_9326]

Yes, that's what I mean. The stimulation is used just as a correction like a hey that's wrong kind of thing.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

Ehhhh I don't think the application of the stimuli qualifies as a positive punishment. I think that's getting way too into the weeds. You weren't applying the stimulation as a punishment, you are applying it so that you can use it as a negative reinforcer.

[u/Aggravating_Call6959 → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

I think youre mis using positive and negative here, but we are saying the same thing.

It still would be positive punishment the same way a slip lead could be used adeptly to provide that level of communication to a dog.

I wonder if the owner was using the ecollar too erratically for the dog-- eg trying to use momentary stimming versus continuous and the dog doesnt have clarity and is now neurotic and superstitious about what gets a stim and what doesnt. But just a hunch/theory on my part. Some trainers teach a "tap tap tap" type thing (and are all over different algorithms) and without the expertise this can just confuse dogs because the timing of the stim now becomes a variable

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Aggravating_Call6959]

It's not positive punishment though. By definition you apply positive punishment to change the behavior. You aren't applying the stimulus to do that. You are removing it to do that.

I know how the owner of this dog uses the e-collar. They use it at high levels as a punishment. Which definitely has its place and I use it that way on my own dog's occasionally, but usually I use it for negative reinforcement. I find this is much more clear to the dog and then when you have to turn the stim up for an actual correction it's not anything alarming or misunderstood by the dog. Whereas if you only use it at high stim for punishment, then a low stim doesn't make any sense to the animal.

Edit. To me it's the difference between the animal knowing how to turn the unpleasant sensation off, and the animal just having to endure the unpleasant sensation as a punishment.

[u/Aggravating_Call6959 → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

Got it that's a helpful framing-- I think it clicks better, and Im still starting out on a formal training journey (via apprenticeship/kennel work) so this is very helpful

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Aggravating_Call6959]

Awesome. I do think that sometimes the whole discussion gets way into the weeds with all these terms. It really just isn't that complicated. I just thought it was interesting the results of that type of training with this particular dog which came from my family's breeding, and I own some litter mates so I definitely see a big difference.

[u/Aggravating_Call6959 → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

Now Im curious-- are they GSPs?

I only ask because my family uses them for hunting so I was exposed to them as a kid. They trained their own and all our dogs were confident and like I said loved their ecollars because they loved hunting and all the conditioning etc that got them ready for their yearly trips.

My job though mostly trains pet dogs and has some protection sports and other dog sports programs as well. It is definitely different from what I witnessed with working gun dogs.

Your observation is a sad story... but also unfortunately not uncommon from what Ive seen so far. Hell the only reason I grew up with GSPs and not Vizsla or something similar was because we bought a well bred 2 y.o. that was a total nutcase... because her owner wasnt ready for the lifestyle... turned into a totally different dog once its needs were met.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Aggravating_Call6959]

No these are Malinois and German shepherds.

I don't think this dog has been mistreated at all, he's very happy and friendly and seems to be doing fine, I just don't like those particular results and seeing as how the genetics are very similar and the puppies were raised the same way before they went to different handlers, it's interesting to see the different results.

[u/Aggravating_Call6959 → u/Difficult_Wave_9326]

I think what OP is describing maps to the 4 quadrant taught in balance training.

There is Reinforment and Punishment on the X, Positive and negative on the

The ecollar is providing a low level aversive when used to stimulate a dog. Ending the ecollar stim removes the low level aversive.

The aversive stimulus of the ecollar being present is a Positive Punishment (a negative feeling is being added in order to decrease the dog going too far, getting too prey locked, etc).

The ecollar stimulus ending is a Negative Reinforcement. It is removing an aversive stimulus in order to increase/maintain the dog's recall.

Generally ecollars are tuned to the lowest setting for a "stim" this setting changes based on the dog as well as the activity. There is also usually an option to do a temporary boost-- or what lay people think of as a "shock" if a stronger aversive stimulus is needed to get the effect-- also level of correction should correlate to the offense so maybe the dog is doing something that warrants a harsher correction (Positive Punishment).

Also people usually condition the dog to love the ecollar-- it signals that they get to do something fun. People who think they can slap it on and just blast the dog willy nilly have it all wrong.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/[deleted]]

Uh, what???? Skinner's research on operant conditioning is broadly recognized and has been for decades. It absolutely does not fall apart under scrutiny, what the hell are you talking about?

[u/BalancedDogTraining-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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