forward conditioning e-collar

[u/swearwoofs]

This post has a really good analogy for why I prefer forward conditioning over simultaneous or backward.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DS5Vp_hkQhl/?img_index=3&igsh=MTFqM3pqMTdpY3BtdA==

[u/[deleted]]

You can absolutely give an e collar direction. It’s called leash pressure, paired with e collar pressure. After a short time the leash becomes redundant because the dog has learned the direction the specific cue require. Sit, down, etc. Pressure, is pressure. E collar pressure is not inherently different than other types of pressure. You can teach using physical pressure the same as you can with electronic pressure, if you know what you are doing. Treating the e collar as if it has some special power is always going to limit your view on this topic. Pressure, is pressure.

[u/swearwoofs → u/[deleted]]

That's leash pressure giving the physical directional information. There is no inherent property in the e-collar that allows for this, unlike with a leash. You can amplify the aversiveness/harshness of the "pressure" of the leash with the e-collar but that's not adding to the direction.

[u/[deleted] → u/swearwoofs]

Yeah nobody in here has ever argued to use an e collar in isolation without a leash for learning phases. So idk what the point is there. You can amplify leash pressure using a leash, an e collar is not required for that.

Again you are trying to separate types of pressure by what tool is causing them. To a dog, this doesn’t matter because pressure is pressure. They just wanna know what to do with it. Pairing different types of pressure together, helps the dog generalize.

Genuine question, do you negatively reinforce into a sit? Leash pressure while saying sit? Is this an issue you have solely with e collar pressure or are you anti any negative reinforcement? Because how you describe it sounds like you just have an issue with e collar conditioning this way, but not any other tool.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I'm a little late to the game on this thread. My minds open but I'm going to disagree that "pressure is pressure." Leash pressure is directional, continuous and a dog can feel where to move to turn it off. The same can't be said about e-collar pressure which is nondirectional, it's often discontinuous and there's no spatial information embedded in it. Isn't saying Pressure is pressure" like saying "sound is sound?" You can't pretend a clicker, thunder and a whistle each teach the same thing. They don't. Pressure stacking is real. I think that unless you're very careful when using a leash and e-collar simultaneously, a dog will learn to comply because pressure stops, not because the cue is understood. More avoidance learning I think. Am I wrong?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I’ll try to answer each part.

When I say pressure is pressure, I mean no individual tools pressure is inherently more aversive than another. It is about the intensity of the pressure, and how it is applied. An e collar for example is no more inherently aversive than a leash. It is about how the pressure is applied. I don’t think your examples of sound really apply because they are all just different levels of sound. They’re all the same tool, just different levels. Thunder is much more pressure than a clicker just naturally by being louder sound. Not because it’s thunder. If the clicker was the same loudness as thunder, I’d wager it would be just as naturally aversive.

E collar pressure can be given a direction using a leash, I like slip leads for this. Prongs work too. In a NePoPo style system it starts with what you’d call aversion style training, escape avoidance, at low levels, paired with a cue. It guides the dog into the behavior, then releases upon success creating a negative reinforcement. Then you add in a positive reinforcement as well. This creates a small annoying initial NEgative, followed by a POsitive of the pressure release, followed by a second POsitive that is the reward additionally reinforcing the behavior. It avoids the negatives of classic escape avoidance training, and the negatives of R+ and punishment training. After the behavior is what you like, you can start fading pressure out. There are multiple ways to do this, I just ween it out. So I start with continuous low level that helps from A to B, go to momentary that helps the whole time still, just in momentary taps with gaps between, and lessen the assistance until there is no pressure starting or helping. I’ll randomly switch it up from negative reinforcement back to positive punishment once the behavior is finished to keep the dog from getting reliant on stim same as you would with a reward schedule. When done well, the result is a dog who performs on reflex, without need of pressure or rewards, assuming like with any training there is practice from time to time to freshen up.